Barca elections 2015

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
Debt is maybe the wrong word to use then but the club had close to 600m euros in total liabilities which needed addressed.

Just as Man Utd needed to address theirs, Real needed to address theirs and Arsenal needed to address theirs.

How much are Barca in the black now? It will be much, much more than 11m if we use the same rules applied.

Without knowing the final figures we can't really say. Barca have made more money (inflation, Qatar sponsorship), but they have also spent more as well. Likelihood is they had bigger profits than €11M since they've reduced liabilities, but how much is unknown.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Without knowing the final figures we can't really say. Barca have made more money (inflation, Qatar sponsorship), but they have also spent more as well. Likelihood is they had bigger profits than €11M since they've reduced liabilities, but how much is unknown.

Spent more on what? Players?

Would expect them to have spent more considering they didnt have the base of La Masia players at a younger age that they had in 2003 and transfer fees have rocketed.

Reading swiss Ramble etc they no way accept the club was 11m in the black when Laporta left. The accounts they put forward were not even audited.

Of course the close to 600m figure is not the full story either but there has not been any acceptance from anyone that the club were 11m in black in 2010. Laporta not being made personally liable doesnt prove he was right on that.
 
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MessiDinho10

New member
Debt is maybe the wrong word to use then but the club had close to 600m euros in total liabilities which needed addressed.

Just as Man Utd needed to address theirs, Real needed to address theirs and Arsenal needed to address theirs.

How much are Barca in the black now? It will be much, much more than 11m if we use the same rules applied.

600m in liabilities is no problem if your assets match up to it. In accountancy you have to look for certain ratios when you are trying to measure the financial state of a company. These ratios include liquidity ratios (short-term liabilities in relation to current assets (there are more ratios but this one is most common, it's called current ratio)) and the solvability ratio (long-term liabilities in relation to all assets). I don't know what Barcelona's state is and I don't think we as outsiders are even able to calculate it properly, but this is how you measure the state of a company.
In short: these ratios tell accountants whether or not a company is able to pay off their long- and short-term liabilities, the amount of total liabilities doesn't matter, only how high they are in relation to total assets.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
600m in liabilities is no problem if your assets match up to it. In accountancy you have to look for certain ratios when you are trying to measure the financial state of a company. These ratios include liquidity ratios (short-term liabilities in relation to current assets (there are more ratios but this one is most common, it's called current ratio)) and the solvability ratio (long-term liabilities in relation to all assets). I don't know what Barcelona's state is and I don't think we as outsiders are even able to calculate it properly, but this is how you measure the state of a company.
In short: these ratios tell accountants whether or not a company is able to pay off their long- and short-term liabilities, the amount of total liabilities doesn't matter, only how high they are in relation to total assets.

If it is no problem then why have all of the biggest teams around the world made huge efforts to clear their debt?

Go and read swiss ramble. There are debates over the definition of 'debt' used but pretty much standard is that the financial situation at Barca needed to be improved and the 'debt' owed to be reduced.

I read somewhere that the rules to define debt used by Rosell in 2010 were the same as Laporta used in 2003.
 

serghei

Senior Member
The debt is getting thinner right? That's not because we spend less, but because our income is bigger (and could be even bigger if we think about it). You can't reduce the debt by not spending as much, because spending is what keeps you competitive in today's football. So, if spending less is not the solution, the only way we can clear some of the debt in time is producing more money. Simple really. It's how it is and we have to adapt. So, if say we cancel the Qatar Airways deal and we go sponsorless on our shirt, isn't that a roadblock in our attempt to reduce the dept? There is no place for romanticism today, it's all about pragmatism. You can't afford to be romantic. Some deals done by this board were a necessary evil. That's how I see it, and I'm not trying to defend anyone.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Pep Guardiola is happy to talk about the various figures that have come up during the Barcelona electoral campaign, Laporta, Abidal and Laudrup in particular. "I can't deny that I really like Laporta, he's great. He took a punt on me when I was 36. I won't be able to use my vote because I'll be in China. I love Abidal. I was lucky enough to manage him and get to know him. Laudrup is also a great guy".


Pep getting involved! Cant see this being posted elsewhere. Apologies if missed it.

Edit: Laudrup??
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Pep Guardiola is happy to talk about the various figures that have come up during the Barcelona electoral campaign, Laporta, Abidal and Laudrup in particular. "I can't deny that I really like Laporta, he's great. He took a punt on me when I was 36. I won't be able to use my vote because I'll be in China. I love Abidal. I was lucky enough to manage him and get to know him. Laudrup is also a great guy".


Pep getting involved! Cant see this being posted elsewhere. Apologies if missed it.

Edit: Laudrup??

Majo said he had a deal with Laudrup of making him his Sporting Director if he won. Now I have no idea why Laudrup would agree anything like that for a candidate that will not win or has any chance of doing so. Laudrup's agent confirmed it and said it's true. Weird.
 

zanela

Senior Member
Majo said he had a deal with Laudrup of making him his Sporting Director if he won. Now I have no idea why Laudrup would agree anything like that for a candidate that will not win or has any chance of doing so. Laudrup's agent confirmed it and said it's true. Weird.

Yeh that's got me perplexed a bit. Perhaps he's Majo's friend (Majorca connection), and he's just doing him a favor.
 

jamrock

Senior Member
when the media refer to debt, they actually mean total liabilities.

This includes what might be described as operational debt, such as: (a) trade creditors (payables) for amounts outstanding on bills for products or services received, e.g. rent, electricity; (b) money owed to staff, e.g. wages earned by staff paid at the end of the month, bonus payments; (c) other accrued expenses (accruals), which are the same as payables except no invoice has yet been received; (d) provisions, which are an estimate of probable future losses, e.g. legal claims; (e) and, most bizarrely, deferred income for payments received for services not yet provided, e.g. season ticket revenue for matches to be played in the future.


That last one highlights one danger of using liabilities as a definition for debt, as season ticket money received in advance is clearly not a bad thing, as UEFA explain: “It is recorded as a liability, as accountants consider the cash received as not yet being fully earned until the matches take place. This is a liability, but not a debt that will have to be paid back.”

So, much of Madrid’s €590 million and Barcelona’s €578 million debt includes liability for what might be termed normal operations. If we apply the same definition to Manchester United, they have debt (total liabilities) of just under €1 billion (£824 million converted at a rate of 1.20). Even Arsenal’s debt on the same basis is €524 million, which the journalists would no doubt describe as “eye-watering” if they were talking about others and not their template for a well-run club. To use an old adage, you have to make sure that you are comparing apples with apples.

Of course, if you wanted to make a club’s debt look as bad as possible, then you would absolutely use the total liabilities definition

The net debt reported in an English club’s financial statement will be in line with IFRS (International Financial Reporting Standards) and essentially covers purely financial obligations, such as overdrafts, bank loans, bonds, shareholder loans and finance leases less cash. On this basis, the gross debt of Madrid and Barcelona at €146 million and €150 million respectively is not only considerably smaller than the figure highlighted in the press, but is also much lower than Arsenal €310 million and Manchester United €551 million.

The difference is not quite so large for net debt, as both United and Arsenal have substantial cash balances, but the Spanish clubs are still lower: Madrid €48 million and Barcelona €89 million. Arsenal are much of a muchness with €117 million, while United are the outlier with a hefty €370 million.

In their Financial Fair Play (FFP) guidelines, UEFA introduce a third definition of debt which lies somewhere between the narrow calculation employed in annual accounts and the widest possible measure of total liabilities: “A club’s net player transfers balance (i.e. net of accounts receivable from players’ transfers and accounts payable from players’ transfers) and net borrowings (i.e. bank overdrafts and loans, owner and/or related party loans and finance leases less cash and cash equivalents).”

They go on to explicitly state, “Net debt does not include trade or other payables.” However, it does include the net balance owed on player transfers, which is a reasonable approach to take, as this can be an important element in the business model adopted by some football clubs, e.g. this amounts to €76 million at Madrid (actually down from €111 million the previous year and an astonishing €211 million in 2009), though it is only €12 million at Arsenal, which probably comes as no surprise to those fans that have been exhorting the club to spend some money.


The major concern is obviously the debt, which Javier Faus said was “the biggest in the club’s history.” We’ve not been given the full details yet, but the adjusted figure released by the club was gross debt of €552 million (net debt €442 million). However, we do know that this represents total liabilities and is thus misleadingly high, as it includes trade creditors, accruals and even provisions. In fact, Rosell and his cohorts should be ashamed of this needless scaremongering, which is not consistent with standard accounting practice – or, indeed, UEFA’s definition, which explicitly states, “net debt does not include trade or other payables.”

As an example of how absurd the total liabilities definition is, just look at how high other clubs’ gross debt would be using this measure: Real Madrid €683 million, Liverpool €578 million and Manchester United €1.1 billion. Even Arsenal, which is regarded as the template for financial sustainability, would have “debt” of €767 million (though it’s come down a lot since the last annual accounts). This places Barcelona’s €552 million firmly into context. To use an old adage, you have to compare apples with apples.

Under UK accounting practice, net debt includes bank overdrafts and loans, owner and/or related party loans and finance leases less cash and cash equivalents. Under this definition, Barcelona’s net debt in last year’s accounts was actually only €20 million, compared to Rosell’s total liabilities of €489 million.

The truth is that Barcelona’s real debt lies somewhere between the narrow UK accounting definition and the new board’s widest possible measure.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Have they ever said that Laportas 11m in black is anywhere close to being correct either.

The 600m figure is not debt in strict term of word but it is a number that shows the financial pressure at the club at that time.

In terms of how football 'debt' is discussed normally then the figure of 600m was closet than the 11m in black.

Laporta even spoke about debt like that in past until it suited him to take a different view.
 

raki

New member
The debt is getting thinner right? That's not because we spend less, but because our income is bigger (and could be even bigger if we think about it). You can't reduce the debt by not spending as much, because spending is what keeps you competitive in today's football. So, if spending less is not the solution, the only way we can clear some of the debt in time is producing more money. Simple really. It's how it is and we have to adapt. So, if say we cancel the Qatar Airways deal and we go sponsorless on our shirt, isn't that a roadblock in our attempt to reduce the dept? There is no place for romanticism today, it's all about pragmatism. You can't afford to be romantic. Some deals done by this board were a necessary evil. That's how I see it, and I'm not trying to defend anyone.

Agree. Fans must be realistic. We are not in Wonderland.
The debt has been reduced yearly at a pace of 20/30M per year since 2010 being in 220M in 2014.
 
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MessiDinho10

New member
when the media refer to debt, they actually mean total liabilities.

This includes what might be described as operational debt, such as: (a) trade creditors (payables) for amounts outstanding on bills for products or services received, e.g. rent, electricity; (b) money owed to staff, e.g. wages earned by staff paid at the end of the month, bonus payments; (c) other accrued expenses (accruals), which are the same as payables except no invoice has yet been received; (d) provisions, which are an estimate of probable future losses, e.g. legal claims; (e) and, most bizarrely, deferred income for payments received for services not yet provided, e.g. season ticket revenue for matches to be played in the future.


That last one highlights one danger of using liabilities as a definition for debt, as season ticket money received in advance is clearly not a bad thing, as UEFA explain: “It is recorded as a liability, as accountants consider the cash received as not yet being fully earned until the matches take place. This is a liability, but not a debt that will have to be paid back.”

So, much of Madrid’s €590 million and Barcelona’s €578 million debt includes liability for what might be termed normal operations. If we apply the same definition to Manchester United, they have debt (total liabilities) of just under €1 billion (£824 million converted at a rate of 1.20). Even Arsenal’s debt on the same basis is €524 million, which the journalists would no doubt describe as “eye-watering” if they were talking about others and not their template for a well-run club. To use an old adage, you have to make sure that you are comparing apples with apples.

Of course, if you wanted to make a club’s debt look as bad as possible, then you would absolutely use the total liabilities definition

The net debt reported in an English club’s financial statement will be in line with IFRS (International Financial Reporting Standards) and essentially covers purely financial obligations, such as overdrafts, bank loans, bonds, shareholder loans and finance leases less cash. On this basis, the gross debt of Madrid and Barcelona at €146 million and €150 million respectively is not only considerably smaller than the figure highlighted in the press, but is also much lower than Arsenal €310 million and Manchester United €551 million.

The difference is not quite so large for net debt, as both United and Arsenal have substantial cash balances, but the Spanish clubs are still lower: Madrid €48 million and Barcelona €89 million. Arsenal are much of a muchness with €117 million, while United are the outlier with a hefty €370 million.

In their Financial Fair Play (FFP) guidelines, UEFA introduce a third definition of debt which lies somewhere between the narrow calculation employed in annual accounts and the widest possible measure of total liabilities: “A club’s net player transfers balance (i.e. net of accounts receivable from players’ transfers and accounts payable from players’ transfers) and net borrowings (i.e. bank overdrafts and loans, owner and/or related party loans and finance leases less cash and cash equivalents).”

They go on to explicitly state, “Net debt does not include trade or other payables.” However, it does include the net balance owed on player transfers, which is a reasonable approach to take, as this can be an important element in the business model adopted by some football clubs, e.g. this amounts to €76 million at Madrid (actually down from €111 million the previous year and an astonishing €211 million in 2009), though it is only €12 million at Arsenal, which probably comes as no surprise to those fans that have been exhorting the club to spend some money.


The major concern is obviously the debt, which Javier Faus said was “the biggest in the club’s history.” We’ve not been given the full details yet, but the adjusted figure released by the club was gross debt of €552 million (net debt €442 million). However, we do know that this represents total liabilities and is thus misleadingly high, as it includes trade creditors, accruals and even provisions. In fact, Rosell and his cohorts should be ashamed of this needless scaremongering, which is not consistent with standard accounting practice – or, indeed, UEFA’s definition, which explicitly states, “net debt does not include trade or other payables.”

As an example of how absurd the total liabilities definition is, just look at how high other clubs’ gross debt would be using this measure: Real Madrid €683 million, Liverpool €578 million and Manchester United €1.1 billion. Even Arsenal, which is regarded as the template for financial sustainability, would have “debt” of €767 million (though it’s come down a lot since the last annual accounts). This places Barcelona’s €552 million firmly into context. To use an old adage, you have to compare apples with apples.

Under UK accounting practice, net debt includes bank overdrafts and loans, owner and/or related party loans and finance leases less cash and cash equivalents. Under this definition, Barcelona’s net debt in last year’s accounts was actually only €20 million, compared to Rosell’s total liabilities of €489 million.

The truth is that Barcelona’s real debt lies somewhere between the narrow UK accounting definition and the new board’s widest possible measure.

Have they ever said that Laportas 11m in black is anywhere close to being correct either.

The 600m figure is not debt in strict term of word but it is a number that shows the financial pressure at the club at that time.

In terms of how football 'debt' is discussed normally then the figure of 600m was closet than the 11m in black.

Laporta even spoke about debt like that in past until it suited him to take a different view.

Jam rock explains it very well here (partly used this article from The Swiss Ramble I think: http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/truth-about-debt-at-barcelona-and-real.html). I suggest you read it.

The football debt you are talking about says almost nothing about the financial state of a company. The financial pressure on the club is measured by ratios such as liquidity, solvability and EBITDA. These numbers show the relation between the liabilities, debt, assets, revenue, profit, cashflow etcetera. The ''football debt'' you are talking about is mostly used by the media because it's the highest and most staggering number. Add the word debt and every reader will think the club's financial situation is miserable. Of course the number is mentioned by the club, but that is because the number is a reality and is stated in Barcelona's balance sheet (it could also be used as a political device, but that's another discussion). There are multiple ways to measure the debt of a club (ways that still don't tell you the whole story of a company), but this number is not the one that is used by UEFA, FIFA and the IFRS, and rightly so.

I don't know where the 11 million of Laporta's tenure comes from, and I have yet to find a quality article about it. Fact is that there was a lawsuit and that Laporta was cleared, a lawsuit which took a couple of years. I trust that it is investigated thoroughly, and that the judge's decision was the right decision.
 

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