Barca Transfers and Rumors

[Sneer]

Right wing Deulofeu? Dembele?

I doubt Valverde has the balls to field a new formation. He will stick with 4-3-3.

We already have Vidal and he is 1000 times better than Deulofeu, so what will be the logic in bringing him back?
We should focus on Sidibe or Semedo for RB and push Vidal up the right .

 

[hulinat]

We already have Vidal and he is 1000 times better than Deulofeu, so what will be the logic in bringing him back?
We should focus on Sidibe or Semedo for RB and push Vidal up the right .

Vidal isnt better than Deulofeu lol

 

[jamrock]

I already said months and even years now, that Messi needs to play AM and a Pedro type right winger.

I said it, this is what needs to happen, it doesn't need to be debated.

 

[JamDav1982]

I already said months and even years now, that Messi needs to play AM and a Pedro type right winger.

I said it, this is what needs to happen, it doesn't to be debated.

Can easily be debated.

Messi plays better from the right and team play better with him from the right as it stands.

If Messi goes AM any RW needs to be one with more individual ability than Pedro though. One that scares teams if he is isolated with defender so can stretch whole pitch.

Can remember Pedro at RW often being left open by teams as they shuffled to left as not so scared of him getting at ball outside box and running at them.

 

[serghei]

Messi needs to play right wing. The key here is that you can tweak the system to make it more mobile, which Lucho did not do this season. And Messi himself needs to remember the original position is RW. So when Messi makes a move (that is get from one area to another), our other players need to track that movement and complement it. Totall football principles need to be respected to make it work. Movements from a player are tracked and covered by that of their teammates, so that the shape is still compact, even if the roles change whithin the setup. So, for that to work, you would actually need a kind of midfielder who is actually AM like, and would show Messi qualities in the right wing when Leo vacates that spot. The main issue with this though, is that if something happens and Messi is in AM position, and the midfielder is caught in RW position at some point, Messi needs to do what the role requires from him.

Think about it in terms of a 3 point triangle which forms the combinative trio in the right. You have RB - RCM - RW, mainly. When we had Alves, the movement pattern was often like this. Phase 1: Messi - Rakitic - Alves in normal positions. Phase 2: Messi goes inside - Alves pushes up and takes the flank - Rakitic drops a bit to the right to cover for Alves. This scheme worked golden, especially in the first season, because Alves has amazing playmaking qualities, and he was a huge threat taking winger space in both seasons under Lucho.

Now we lost that player, and Rakitic/Roberto just don't even have half of Alves' in game intelligence. So, we can either get back that player by signing a highly creative RB (don't see it in the market), or by signing a midfielder with AM qualities, one that has several things Rakitic doesn't, but Alves did (dribbling, final pass, link-up play abilities).

 

[GetIn]

Messi needs to play right wing. The key here is that you can tweak the system to make it more mobile, which Lucho did not do this season. And Messi himself needs to remember the original position is RW. So when Messi makes a move (that is get from one area to another), our other players need to track that movement and complement it. Totall football principles need to be respected to make it work. Movements from a player are tracked and covered by that of their teammates, so that the shape is still compact, even if the roles change whithin the setup. So, for that to work, you would actually need a kind of midfielder who is actually AM like, and would switch places with Messi.

Think about it in terms of a 3 point triangle which forms the combinative trio in the right. You have RB - RCM - RW, mainly. When we had Alves, the movement pattern was often like this. Phase 1: Messi - Rakitic - Alves in normal positions. Phase 2: Messi goes inside - Alves pushes up and takes the flank - Rakitic drops a bit to the right to cover for Alves. This scheme worked golden, especially in the first season, because Alves has amazing playmaking qualities, and he was a huge threat taking winger space in both seasons under Lucho.

Now we lost that player, and Rakitic/Roberto just don't even have half of Alves' in game intelligence. So, we can either get back that player by signing a highly creative RB (don't see it in the market), or by signing a midfielder with AM qualities, one that has several things Rakitic doesn't, but Alves did (dribbling, final pass, link-up play abilities).

I don't think that Messi moving into the middle has anything to do with the departure of Alves, but due to the lack of creativity in the midfield. He moved over into the middle of the pitch about halfway through last season, remember Alves was with us last season.

 

[JamDav1982]

I don't think that Messi moving into the middle has anything to do with the departure of Alves, but due to the lack of creativity in the midfield. He moved over into the middle of the pitch about halfway through last season, remember Alves was with us last season.

Alves was almost more a CM than a RB at times for Barca though especially in second half of that treble season. While Rakitic covered.

Most of Messi link up play was with Alves who played infield of him for a lot of the time.

Now Messi has no one to link with on the right from the midfield and drifts to look for the ball.

 

[serghei]

Alves was almost more a CM than a RB at times for Barca though especially in second half of that treble season. While Rakitic covered.

Most of Messi link up play was with Alves who played infield of him for a lot of the time.

Now Messi has no one to link with on the right from the midfield and drifts to look for the ball.

Totally, and the reason for this is that Alves took on a lot of risk in his passing, making it look easy because of his ability, not because passing forward when the other team has 10 players behind the ball is easy. He used to pass the ball forward in very tight spaces. So Messi would be able to stay RW mostly and still see lot of the ball. This was down to Alves' passing after Xavi left. Once Alves left too, the amount of time Messi sees the ball in RW has been reduced by a lot. I think it's undeniable that Alves is BY FAR a better passer and a better playmaker than Rakitic and Roberto. There is a difference in vision, confidence, and technical ability (execution). These 3 elemets make the difference. Rakitic and Roberto leave a lot to be desired in every one of these areas that define a passer-playmaker.

 

[jamrock]

I haven't type on a computer on this forum is years, and at times like these I need to, in order to lay out the game play probably, but I will try my best in my phone.

No matter how we want to split it Messi always comes into the middle, which is obvious to everyone, the right would then be covered by Alves while he was here, but Messi always moves to the middle 5 minutes after the whistle blows.

Now all this get a AM that would move to the right, when Messi goes into the middle, which he almost always will, kinda "total football" thing, will result in the same issues that some have highlighted regarding Messi being an AM.

Which is 1) he will be a AM in that instance lol

2) It will still leave Messi in the middle with a double "pivot",and no midfield cover.

So yea that makes more sense, it's just a more complicated way to get to the same result.

So instead of reinventing the wheel, what we need to do is keep it simple, and play a team shape that accommodates him there, which is a 4-2-3-1, with a right winger who is willing to do a bit of running.

KISS, keep it simple stupid, no need for any fancy constantly shifting positions, wierd formations, or fooling ourselves that Messi as ever played on the right for a single season, since pep started to play him as a false 9.

Messi is a F9/AM and that's all he will ever be, especially as he gets older, the fact that he can go right and cut in on his godly left foot, is only a added benefit of having him in the team.

So what we all should be doing, is praying to the football gods that our new coach plays him there or comes up with something ever been.

Again this need no debate, look at the heat map of Messi for club and country and tell me he should play RW, playing him there at this stage is no better than playing saures as a LW.

 

[JamDav1982]

Have been saying for ages the only option is Messi as AM with two DMs or he goes back to RW. I prefer him on right though.

Messi will always drift to middle but he has virtually given up the RW at times this season.

In that treble season Messi starting position was far more often out wide until he got on ball or until play came up park than it is now.

I dont think Messi the way he plays AM at now is as effective as he is coming from wide. He has almost been playing it like some kind of second striker in a Atletico, Leicester approach that looks to go straight for throat of opposition every time he gets it.

Point to heat maps now of Messi if you like but he has not been as good in the big games for Barca or particularly brilliant in biggest games for Argentina in recent times playing centrally.

 

[El Barcelona]

Exactly. A 4231 formation and when we lose the ball we can switch to 442. Neymar proved this season that he can run and defend, we just need a RW that can do the same (Vidal?)

 

[serghei]

The first two are the main patterns of movement we used for Messi. Messi always made the move and looked for space, he was the one that set the tone, and the other players adjusted.

The things are pretty simple. When Messi moves from one position and enters another, the other players have to adjust their position. This means fluid football. If Messi vacates his position, and his movement is not followed up, then that is chaotic football. In rigid positional football, you are not allowed to leave your zone at will. Messi going in the middle-right, means someone has to take the RW spot. That was either Alves most often, or the CAM. It's incredibly hard to find a RB that can be a great winger as well, close to impossible really. So the solution is 4-3-3, with a midfielder who is good enough to switch places with Messi and pose a threat on RW as well. Bernardo fits the bill.

The double pivot thing would need a change of style to a more counter-attacking setup. You basically have 2 midfielders behind the ball, which is one less passing option forward. The attacks would be even more stale, which would probably lead to higher possession against teams who don't come out to play with less chances and slightly better defence. It's a more cautious approach.

The problem in a double pivot is that the pass betwen the pivots triggers no reaction from the other team, because it is not a forward pass, or between the line pass. So this would mean that we would have 4 players, the double pivot and the 2 defenders behind the ball. To guard what, exactly? 1 attacker from the other team (it is known that the other teams usually play 4-5-1 in defence against Barca, from a 4-2-3-1). If a team can carry out counters with 2 vs 3, they will do it with 2 vs 4 as well. So the extra defender doesn't necessarily mean that we will have a stronger defence. One more defender would help, but will not guranatee a better defence.

We might end up with a situation like this in positional:

This is not without merit btw, because Spain have received very few goals at the World Cup in 2010 and at the Euros in 2012, as a result of being so extraordinarily cautious. And it is pretty clever in a way becasue the team with the better players is always more likely to score in numerical disadvantage. But it is a style you need to practice, and you absolutely need to be focused at all times, because individual errors can be very constly when playing a 0-0, 1-0 game as Spain often did.

 

[jamrock]

I think people are confusing the 4-2-3-1 because they think us, we as Barcelona football club, will play with a traditional double pivot.

The day we do that, is the same I will plug my eyes out.

It will be busquets plus a verrati type player, or we will turn busquets into that CM and get a DM, which will not be a kante type player, someone like Martinez would be perfect if we choose to move busquests to a more CM role.


Much like Madrid play with casemiro, with Kroos and modric.

When Messi leaves we return to out traditional 4-3-3.

Always with the 3-4-3 and 4-3-3 we pretty have 4 men behind the ball. At the worst 3.

Plus it would still be 3 in this formation, we will not play a Jose 4-2-3-1

 

[serghei]

For me, a double pivot is when both midfielders are behind the ball and distribute the ball from there. If they don't play in the same line, and one plays higher and one plays lower, I would not call it a double pivot.

 

[JamDav1982]

I think people are confusing the 4-2-3-1 because they think us, we as Barcelona football club, will play with a traditional double pivot.

The day we do that, is the same I will plug my eyes out.

It will be busquets plus a verrati type player, or we will turn busquets into that CM and get a DM, which will not be a kante type player, someone like Martinez would be perfect if we choose to move busquests to a more CM role.


Much like Madrid play with casemiro, with Kroos and modric.

When Messi leaves we return to out traditional 4-3-3.

Always with the 3-4-3 and 4-3-3 we pretty have 4 men behind the ball. At the worst 3.

Plus it would still be 3 in this formation, we will not play a Jose 4-2-3-1

So that is just really a 4-3-3 then if it is not two deeper players defending for Messi.

That midfield would get cut apart when have one who doesnt defend. Need two more defensive minded, higher work rate players to make up for it.