Barca Transfers and Rumors

jamrock

Senior Member
So that is just really a 4-3-3 then if it is not two deeper players defending for Messi.

That midfield would get cut apart when have one who doesnt defend. Need two more defensive minded, higher work rate players to make up for it.

There is a difference between two players playing deeper, and two defensive midfielder, which is what some seem to be hinting at.

I hate to use Madrid as an example, but they have taken what I've been saying and implemented over the past 2 seasons.

Neither Kroos or modric or defensive midfielders, they are CM, and as such are aware of both sides of the game, this is the type of player we need in midfield as we all would acknowledge.

The two midfielders "behind" Messi, will allow for the fb to push forward in the final 3rd creating numerical superiority in that area, which will mitigate, any doubling of Messi or anyone else in the final 3rd really, we will be attacking with 6 players at any one time and busquets will be there to have us reset and keep possession if we can't break down the lines.

The only issue playing Messi in the AM position will have, is on the defensive side of the game, because he will not run and get back, which is where the winger who is willing to put in a shift comes in.

In our defensive orientation, he will drop back, much like neymar is willing to, only better.

The defensive shape will basically change to a 4-4-1-1.

The only way we can go back to a balance 4-3-3 is if we sell suarez, which I would be willing to do for the right price and bring in a young and exciting talent to play on the right and Messi goes back to where he rightfully belongs, but that won't happen, so we have to make the best of what we have right now.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Cant compare Reals set up as Modric does not play as an AM in way Messi would and Kroos doesnt sit deep in a two either.

Messi wont get involved in build up play the way Modric does or defend like Modric does. Modric plays more like an attacking centre mid and Messi like a second striker.

Need more defensive cover than Real need for Modric.

Real set up is not anything like what Barca would do with Messi at AM where would need deeper mids and more defensive cover.

The Real approach is irrelevant really.
 
Last edited:

Sultan

Nosce te ipsum
We should be looking at the 4231 formation that is used by Pochettino at Spurs. I know there are few variations of it that he uses. But there is one where one of the DMs, usually Wanyama, plays ahead of the two CBs, Dembele pushes forward playing as a RCM, Erikson plays on the Right Wing, but he doesn't actually play as a winger, the RB provides the width and he plays inside more. Son on the left, Alli as a AM and Kane as Fwd.

Set Up:
4231.png


Changes to:
pochettino-4-2-3-1.png


For us we can have a RW player that stays on the wing to provide the width, and give Neymar more of a free role to play inside, with Alba providing the width.
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
The first two are the main patterns of movement we used for Messi. Messi always made the move and looked for space, he was the one that set the tone, and the other players adjusted.
great_barca1.jpg


The things are pretty simple. When Messi moves from one position and enters another, the other players have to adjust their position. This means fluid football. If Messi vacates his position, and his movement is not followed up, then that is chaotic football. In rigid positional football, you are not allowed to leave your zone at will. Messi going in the middle-right, means someone has to take the RW spot. That was either Alves most often, or the CAM. It's incredibly hard to find a RB that can be a great winger as well, close to impossible really. So the solution is 4-3-3, with a midfielder who is good enough to switch places with Messi and pose a threat on RW as well. Bernardo fits the bill.

This is more of a fantasy right now IMHO
We don't have the RB or the CM to do this,and considering all names in the market it is very unlikely we will ever have.
And the switching thing will cause even bigger problems,Rakitic switched a lot,but it always ended with less midfield control and a vulnerable right side, a player like Silva will make those problem even way way bigger,because he does add little control and defense to midfield,you are basically adding a weaker defensive RW when Messi switch and at same time leaving the midfield with 1 DM and 1 CM on left side and will leave our RB isolated in defense,In other word we lose midfield and right side once you lose the ball, we will get punished by every half decent team.

And even on the offense it won't work,again you are ignoring the most important factor of them all: Messi himself
I think you need to face a simple ugly truth, Messi gets what he wants not the other way around,Messi wanted to play in middle and get Ibra out of the the way:Ibra moved to the right side,It only took a new coach who was a club legend since Messi was a teenager and a new super star signing striker and a trophy less year and struggle during the early of the season to Messi to buy into being a RW again,less than a year later he moved back centrally,looked good for couple of months until Zidane punished us for it in the Camp Nou, over one year later he is still playing centrally.

4-2-3-1 is far from perfect, I have been always a guy who rooted to 4-3-3 to the extreme but the current situation is basically hiding from reality,I simply can't see Messi moving to RW on permenant basis,it is a thing of the past and the longer we pretend that it could even happen again the more we are shooting ourself in the foot
 
Last edited:

Jombi

New member
Leave aside the defensive problems with a 4-2-3-1 with Messi in the middle, people underestimate how stale and predictable we are likely to look if we rely on Messi in the middle as our creator with two purely defensive players to "cover" for him.
 

serghei

Senior Member
This is more of a fantasy right now IMHO
We don't have the RB or the CM to do this,and considering all names in the market it is very unlikely we will ever have.
And the switching thing will cause even bigger problems,Rakitic switched a lot,but it always ended with less midfield control and a vulnerable right side, a player like Silva will make those problem even way way bigger,because he does add little control and defense to midfield,you are basically adding a weaker defensive RW when Messi switch and at same time leaving the midfield with 1 DM and 1 CM on left side and will leave our RB isolated in defense,In other word we lose midfield and right side once you lose the ball, we will get punished by every half decent team.

And even on the offense it won't work,again you are ignoring the most important factor of them all: Messi himself
I think you need to face a simple ugly truth, Messi gets what he wants not the other way around,Messi wanted to play in middle and get Ibra out of the the way:Ibra moved to the right side,It only took a new coach who was a club legend since Messi was a teenager and a new super star signing striker and a trophy less year and struggle during the early of the season to Messi to buy into being a RW again,less than a year later he moved back centrally,looked good for couple of months until Zidane punished us for it in the Camp Nou, over one year later he is still playing centrally.

4-2-3-1 is far from perfect, I have been always a guy who rooted to 4-3-3 to the extreme but the current situation is basically hiding from reality,I simply can't see Messi moving to RW on permenant basis,it is a thing of the past and the longer we pretend that it could even happen again the more we are shooting ourself in the foot

It can work in some conditions. First conditions would be to get back to pressing after losing the ball. Imo, if you find a way to narrow down the space the opponent has and you press, the defensive issues of the players are not as evident simply because there is density around the ball and the opponent finds it very hard to create a 1 vs 1 situation. This is actually what happened under Guardiola. We defended by pressing, and by position, not by having good defenders on the field.

So, imo we have two options here, going forward, and depending on what we want to do we need to plan ahead and to implement the right tactics. Both these options can lead to great results, but the style of Barca in recent history has been associated with fluid football.

1) It's either we get back to a more fluid system, like in the pictures I posted, in which case everybody will have to do the defensive phase. This is very hard to do atm, I agree, because it takes a lot of team effort to be able to defend in 10 players, and attack in 10 players. In fluid football, attack and defense are not totally separated from each other. In rigid football, they are, in the sense that you would see players (one, two or three depending on the system) doing nothing to help out, because... well... they simply have no role in defense. That means the opponent finds 1 vs 1 situation easier, in which case it comes down to the player's individual defensive quality to stop actions played in their zone.

So you have defending as team (fluid), with roles that change depending on the position of the ball, and defending simply based on tasks and roles associated to each position. In the first case (fluid one), you can use players that are not natural defenders, because the strenght is not in the player, but in the system. In the second case, you need to find players who can simply do the job, as the success or failure of the rigid approach is in the sum of the players' individual qualities and how those qualities match with the tasks associated with the positions they play in.

2) We continue to play conservatively, like 90% of the teams play. In ths situation, it becomes very hard to implement players like Coutinho and Silva, because they need to be better in defense as you say.

So, the 4-2-3-1 is a solution if we are going to play with little movement (that's what I mean by rigid and fluid). It is a solid setup which would probably help us defend better.

But I like fluid football more, and it is a style of play which is gaining popularity right now, and one that suits us very well. And the amount of movement in our positional game has decreased with each season that has passed under Lucho, thus exploiting more and more of our inability to defend in a conservative way.
 
Last edited:

xXKonan

Senior Member
[tw]867484153108979712[/tw]

Says Robert has been watching Cristopher Jullien, Issa Diop and Malang Sarr. for potential CB targets.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Herrera has been class this season and would be the best CM at the club. All round is a great player now.

No idea why Man Utd would let him go though, been arguably their best player this season.
 

Home of Barca Fans

Top