Basketball/NBA

[Leo_Messi]

But Kobe didnt flopped. Harden get fouls for breathing on him.

That is why I wrote that he has nothing on Kobe. I am just saying that Harden is one of the best offensive players that I have ever seen no matter how many field goals attempts he makes.

Durant was called a flop until he moved to the Warriors as well. Harden would have won 2 rings as well had he moved to the Warriors instead of Durant. No difference here. Now because Durant won 2 rings with a stacked Warriors team, he is no longer a flop. Too easy. Players like Harden and Paul are some of the best on their positions in this modern era. Rings or not.

As for flopping, this is a new era in the NBA. Harden is the best at punishing even the smallest mistakes of defenders. Respect for that although I dislike some of his flopping (when it becomes excessive) as well. But credit where credit is due. Takes nothing away from his talent and abilities.

 

[El Gato]

and pretty easily to expose since the fact that he's the one who played the worst nba finals for a superstar in his prime with a stacked team against past his prime Nowitzki who didn't have a player like that Irving as "robin".

Dirk past his prime in 2011? Dunno about that. It was comfortably his best playoff appearance ever. Every other year dating back to his MVP when they got knocked out by Spurs, Golden State or OKC(?) he was still at that similar level. Only afterwards he settled down and started cutting his salary. If anything the rest of the team were past it.

 

[Hardy]

before talking about Harden as one of the greatest scorer ever he should show something better when it really matters, his post seasons are an atrocity of inefficiency for now. He's putting some crazy numbers in rs but nothing we already saw from other players, without mentioning Kobe i don't think he's better as scorer than prime T-Mac, Iverson or Melo (when he was Melo...), Durant sorry but he's on another level regardless 2 rings, the guy average like 30 pts/game in Nba finals facing Lebron, the year he was in the same position as current Harden (when Westbrook was injuried for almost the entire season) he pulled one of the greatest scoring streak ever, 35pts/game with 51% from the field.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I don't find a problem with Lebron declaring himself the greatest ever. In football both Maradona and Pele did it, didn't Cr7 say something with those lines this year too?
Jordan always spoke highly of himself too, was never the modest player either.
Lebron is top 5 at worst IMHO, the greatest of his era and position and has a case for himself in GOAt discussion, and it is already a topic of discussion in the NBA.
So it isn't like he had no base for such argument.
For me, it depends on what you want, if I have a team with no stars I will want Lebron over anyone else but if I have a legit 2nd option I would prefer MJ

 

[Leo_Messi]

before talking about Harden as one of the greatest scorer ever he should show something better when it really matters, his post seasons are an atrocity of inefficiency for now. He's putting some crazy numbers in rs but nothing we already saw from other players, without mentioning Kobe i don't think he's better as scorer than prime T-Mac, Iverson or Melo (when he was Melo...), Durant sorry but he's on another level regardless 2 rings, the guy average like 30 pts/game in Nba finals facing Lebron, the year he was in the same position as current Harden (when Westbrook was injuried for almost the entire season) he pulled one of the greatest scoring streak ever, 35pts/game with 51% from the field.

There is a difference between talent and accomplishments. See my previous post.

I am talking about Harden's offensive talent solely and the numbers that he has been clocking routinely. I am not alone in considering him one of the most talented offensive players in the modern era. We are talking about last season's MVP and top scorer and the current top scorer.

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/news/nba/james-harden-best-offensive-player/

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/hes-best-offensive-player-ive-ever-seen-james-harden-drops-47-utah/

https://www.thedreamshake.com/2018/...den-the-greatest-isolation-player-of-all-time

Notice, I said "offensively" in the sense of scoring abilities. Not the full package, accomplishments, being clutch etc.

As for the MVP discussion not long ago in this thread. From 4 days ago.

 

[raki]

I don't find a problem with Lebron declaring himself the greatest ever. In football both Maradona and Pele did it, didn't Cr7 say something with those lines this year too?
Jordan always spoke highly of himself too, was never the modest player either.
Lebron is top 5 at worst IMHO, the greatest of his era and position and has a case for himself in GOAt discussion, and it is already a topic of discussion in the NBA.
So it isn't like he had no base for such argument.
For me, it depends on what you want, if I have a team with no stars I will want Lebron over anyone else but if I have a legit 2nd option I would prefer MJ

Jordan never said anything remotely similar. He knows he´s the GOAT. Lebron is trying to bring up the subject but is ridiculous.

 

[Hardy]

Notice, I said "offensively" in the sense of scoring abilities. Not the full package, accomplishments, being clutch etc.

As for the MVP discussion not long ago in this thread. From 4 days ago.

The fact that he has a trend to underperfor badly in the playoff maybe is the consequence and maybe his scoring abilities aren't that good: playoff is another sport, defense is different, i found him a little bit (euphemism) one-dimensional as offensive player, he plays always in the same way, just saying: almost 22 FGA and 12 of them are 3 point shots, this is monstrosity, good for him that he made 40% of them which is really good but this in the rs, then look how his FG% goes down in post season and you must realize how 3 point and free throw-dependent he is. Kobe, Jordan, Durant, Lebron and others have another package as scoring abilities, they can dominate game from mid range, post, driving at rim, if everything goes to the talent that you are talking I am even more convinced that Harden as much he's good he can't be in the same conversation.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Harden doing his thing as usual. What a beast. I have never seen a more dominating scorer in my life. I did not watch Michael Jordan (too young) but I began to watch the NBA fairly regularly when Kobe's generation emerged. I am yet to see a more dominating scorer than Harden. Durant and Kobe are up there (maybe Curry as well) but not many more.

Jordan was something else, crazy athletic and great fundamentals, always scored, rs playoffs, finals, has 8 seasons averaging over 30 ppg, was also a very efficient scorer and rarely turned the ball over.
Best and most dominant basketball player i've seen, ultimate competitor and never took a night off.

Harden is very dependent on getting to the line and not as efficient as Durant, Curry and certainly not Jordan.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

Never forget MJ's defensive abilities. They are on par with his offensive skills which is insane because he is the best scorer to ever play the game.
He had Pippen and they could share the task, sure. But Jordan could play shut down defense on any guard and kill him on the other side of the court.

He is certainly the greatest player ever and even more. MJ is above Basketball.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Never forget MJ's defensive abilities. They are on par with his offensive skills which is insane because he is the best scorer to ever play the game.
He had Pippen and they could share the task, sure. But Jordan could play shut down defense on any guard and kill him on the other side of the court.

He is certainly the greatest player ever and even more. MJ is above Basketball.

What people forget is that MJ did not face teams or dynasties that were even remotely as good as the current Warriors or the Warriors teams of the past few years. None of the teams that the Bulls defeated in the finals were really good teams. I also feel that people are forgetting Kareem Abdul-Jabbar here. He has a legitimate claim here when the GOAT is discussed.

The fact that he has a trend to underperfor badly in the playoff maybe is the consequence and maybe his scoring abilities aren't that good: playoff is another sport, defense is different, i found him a little bit (euphemism) one-dimensional as offensive player, he plays always in the same way, just saying: almost 22 FGA and 12 of them are 3 point shots, this is monstrosity, good for him that he made 40% of them which is really good but this in the rs, then look how his FG% goes down in post season and you must realize how 3 point and free throw-dependent he is. Kobe, Jordan, Durant, Lebron and others have another package as scoring abilities, they can dominate game from mid range, post, driving at rim, if everything goes to the talent that you are talking I am even more convinced that Harden as much he's good he can't be in the same conversation.

I don't disagree much. Just have in mind that Harden is not the finished article yet (IMO) and that he has many years to prove himself further. Lebron James also used to underachieve in the playoffs. Much of this has to do with the team you play for. Harden never played for a dynasty like Lebron, Durant and Kobe have done. Change Harden for Durant and the Warriors would be pretty much the same team. In other words, I highly doubt that they would not have won 3 of the last 4 rings.

 

[KingLeo10]

MJ is number 1 for me, but I doubt he would be 6 in 6 if he came up against the great Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80s. It's somewhat similar to how RM came in and won 4 out of 5 CL titles in the power vacuum left behind by Barca's decline and Bayern's stupidity post 2013.

 

[raki]

What people forget is that MJ did not face teams or dynasties that were even remotely as good as the current Warriors or the Warriors teams of the past few years. None of the teams that the Bulls defeated in the finals were really good teams. I also feel that people are forgetting Kareem Abdul-Jabbar here. He has a legitimate claim here when the GOAT is discussed.



I don't disagree much. Just have in mind that Harden is not the finished article yet (IMO) and that he has many years to prove himself further. Lebron James also used to underachieve in the playoffs. Much of this has to do with the team you play for. Harden never played for a dynasty like Lebron, Durant and Kobe have done. Change Harden for Durant and the Warriors would be pretty much the same team. In other words, I highly doubt that they would not have won 3 of the last 4 rings.

Saying that Harden = Durant in the Warriors is nonsense. Utterly nonsense. Totally different type of players. Harden will be a bench player in the Warriors. Curry is #1 and Klay is the perfect partner because he can defend. A thing that Harden does not know the meaning of. That´s why he always underachieve in the play off´s.

How old are you? I ask this because you said a lot of rubbish regarding Jordan and the teams of the 90´s. That was real tough basketball. Not these sissy ass 3 pt league with 50 free throws a game. I´ve watched the 90´s NBA and several teams of that era would destroy these SOFT teams of today.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Saying that Harden = Durant in the Warriors is nonsense. Utterly nonsense. Totally different type of players. Harden will be a bench player in the Warriors. Curry is #1 and Klay is the perfect partner because he can defend. A thing that Harden does not know the meaning of. That´s why he always underachieve in the play off´s.

How old are you? I ask this because you said a lot of rubbish regarding Jordan and the teams of the 90´s. That was real tough basketball. Not these sissy ass 3 pt league with 50 free throws a game. I´ve watched the 90´s NBA and several teams of that era would destroy these SOFT teams of today.

You did not understand my simple point. Warriors were winning rings without Durant. Replace Durant with Harden and they would have won 3 of the last 4 rings as well. That's the main point. Not a direct comparison of what Durant adds to the team or what Harden could have added or not have added.

I don't say any rubbish. People who watched Jordan say the same thing. That the Bulls never faced a team as good as the Warriors which is not nonsense at all. Or even a dynasty. Unlike you, I am not a fanboy of any player. I am a Lakers fan. Could not care less about who is the GOAT or not. There will always be different opinions.

That is your unproven claim. I doubt that teams of the old are better than today's teams. Not the case in any sport. I doubt that NBA is any different here. It's the same bullshit that fanboys of Maradona bark about. That football was twice as hard 30-20 years ago and that today's footballers are "sissies". Meanwhile today's NBA athletes are better athletes on average than what NBA players were 20-30 years ago. That is without a doubt.

 

[Sultan]

Harden's main strength is also his main weakness. While it is true that his offensive skill is crazy good, it is also a very inefficient. He requires to hold on to the ball almost every possession and roughly takes 20 out of the 24 seconds to create his shots. Now the thing that kills him specially in the post season is teams like the Warriors target him on the defensive end to tire him out and it works every time. He will start the game strong but will go missing during the last quarter and half.

During the regular season he barely defends at all which allows him to solely focus on his offense thus producing some great performances. The downside to this is obvious, when he is forced defend he will not have the stamina to do so. This will require him to alter his game if he wants to compete in the post season. They can try and get the likes of Chris Paul to help him i.e. cover his weaknesses, but that will not work most of the time.

 

[Messigician]

Giannis the GOAT. Send his opponent to the shadow realm with that clean move