Basketball/NBA

[TheStig]

Thoroughly dissagree with that.
Can say the same about Messi, who has "only" 4 major titles in CL, first of which was passenger mode, despite having the same longevity in career of the most dominant team in the particular sport at the time, while having literal all time greats surrounding him as partners in crime for decade.
Nobody cares about winning, let alone being good in the NBA league, it's all about playoffs and the ring. In that aspect you don't seriously think Bulls without Jordan could actually aspire to a title, do you?

Obviously, no goat wins every single title, not even every second title and even surrounded with world class players. Jordan did two 3peats with two sets of different role players around him with Pippen being the only truly other world class player alongside him and still on vastly secondary role. I absolutely loved Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr, but they were the epitome of "good squad players" elevated by presence of greatness.

Only reasonable argument is that about Phil Jackson, who probably is like Pep of NBA. He just made teams work with whomever he had to work with and MJ benefited from it greatly, just like Messi did from Pep, but there's no way you can compare anybody in terms of clutch performances, especially in final stages and final seconds to MJ. I haven't paid much attention whose Lebrons pardners were at any given time, but they definitely couldn't be lower tier players than Kukoc and Kerr, come on. Also just the sheer competitiveness of 90s b-ball was on different league. There were les obvious hegemons like Lakers/Spurs/Goldenstate at any given time. Lot's of super tough teams to break and no mercy from the refs against tough defending. The Lebron emerged in the era of pussification and benefited from it greatly. There was no need for fade away jumpers, reverse layups or harsh physicality for him or anybody currently. Can just draw fouls infinitesimal times per match even from 3p line.

I actually agree with almost everything with you, in the previous post you wrote like MJ won everything all the time but that's far from the truth. I agree with what you wrote now, just a couple of details that I see different. One of those is that I think you underestimate players like Pippe, Rodman, Grant and Kukoč. Those all All Star, HOF players combined with a great coach and role players like Kerr. Just a great mix of players who work great together. Lebron never had such a great TEAM around him, he himself had to do more to get to all those finals.

The other thing that I disagree is the teams either faced during his career. MJ didn't face a dynasty like Lebron did during most of his career with GSW and Spurs. MJ faced dynastys in the 80 with Celtics, Lakers and Pistons and he didn't do well there. He faced great teams and I don't want to take anything from him but there was no one close to GSW that Lebron faced.

Lebron to Jordan is the same as Penaldo to Messi. Also, saying that this the snowflake James is worse marketed than MJ, come on. MJ was the 80s action hero, masculine badass, while Bron is some sort of muh celebrity worship cult leader. MJ wasn't hailed and adored because he is black like nowdays, where Bron goes on twitter and TV to make speeches about politics to be applauded by deluded masses. MJ was marketed only because of his class and pedigree, which he deserved, while Bron is typical modern PoC celebrity, artificially elevated regardless of merit. Sheer stats is only thing he gets over MJ just like Penaldo over Messi on some aspects.

I despise Lebron with his woke fake personality but that doesn't take away what he did on the pitch. Lebron is actually closer to Messi, he's more complete because he's not only a scorer but also a creator but it's impossible to compare sports.

I prefer MJ but Lebron is very close if not on the same level. Off the pitch MJ is a GOAT and Lebron a pussy.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Fair points. I can get along with that. I'm definitely biased, because i saw MJ at my younger days, when i still cared about NBA and had just glimpses of Lebron here and there, when he came around. I might be underrating him + having dislike of his pathetic personality, that skews my view even more.

 

[TheStig]

Yes it's very hard to like American players nowdays with their attitude, childish behaviour and political agendas. I support European guy like Jokić and Dončić who have totally different personalities, great basketball IQ and technique and allround game.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Luka is the biggest cry baby in the NBA, no one whines and complain like him and he dives a lot.

Kind of sad, because I am a Mavs fan and rooted for him even before the draft.

Never mind he has anger issues, and doesn't take care of his body.

 

[TheStig]

That's also true, too bad he doesn't fix these things, he would be unstoppable. He has other positives like amazing IQ, creativity,clutch moments, technique and seems like a great guy. Had an amazing European career too.

Jokić doesn't have any real big flaws. The best itw for years now.

 

[Windhook]

Jordan legacy isn't as intact, and many now has Lebron over him. It is a Maradona and Pele all over again.
And let's not forget that Jordan had Nike marketing behind him. There was never an athlete in history who got the PR he got, it's kind of ridiculous.

Okay, your previous comment you stated "obviously" Jordan is 1, LeBron is 2. Now you say it's a tie game.

Nike didn't create Michael Jordan. Jordan made Nike. He elevated Nike from track shoes to leading sports brand. And Jordan never claimed he's GOAT, instead his actions on the court spoke for it. That's not PR. PR was The Last Dance special, but it left a negative impression on me this guy is an asshole. Regardless of that we are discussing the sports persona.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Okay, your previous comment you stated "obviously" Jordan is 1, LeBron is 2. Now you say it's a tie game.

I said neither of those things. I said one and 2 are Jordan and Lebron, I didn't say it is in that order, and I said it is Maradona and Pele, and I didn't said it is a tie.

What I am saying it is valid debate that will lasts for years to come, that will have both sides defending each opinion religiously. It isn't a made up thing.

Nike didn't create Michael Jordan. Jordan made Nike. He elevated Nike from track shoes to leading sports brand. And Jordan never claimed he's GOAT, instead his actions on the court spoke for it. That's not PR. PR was The Last Dance special, but it left a negative impression on me this guy is an asshole. Regardless of that we are discussing the sports persona.

Nike benefited Jordan more than he benefited them, they invested massively in him and it elevated his status and essentially made an unprecedented hype machine that didn't happen to any athlete before him at those eras.

And Jordan might not have claimed himself as GOAT, but the main again had his team working for him.
I mean for god sake, we now know about how the Bulls falsified his home games defensive states for him. How the steals of his teammates were counted for him etc. All because he was a crybaby that his own management had to cater for him. At least when Lebron pressured his management it was for better players.

 

[jamrock]

Is there really a Jordon Vs LeBron debate?

A Jordon Vs LeBron debate is like a Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

The fans of one set of player (Ronaldo and LeBron) are the only ones that think it's a actual debate, and only the very hardcore fans.

 

[TheStig]

At least when Lebron pressured his management it was for better players.

Like Bronny.

 

[TheStig]

Is there really a Jordon Vs LeBron debate?

A Jordon Vs LeBron debate is like a Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

The fans of one set of player (Ronaldo and LeBron) are the only ones that think it's a actual debate, and only the very hardcore fans.

It's a lot closer than Messi/Ronaldo debate for sure.

 

[Windhook]

The fans of one set of player (Ronaldo and LeBron) are the only ones that think it's a actual debate, and only the very hardcore fans.

That's about my opinion on this debate.

 

[iniestaGOAT]

Is there really a Jordon Vs LeBron debate?

A Jordon Vs LeBron debate is like a Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

The fans of one set of player (Ronaldo and LeBron) are the only ones that think it's a actual debate, and only the very hardcore fans.

I think LeBron has an argument.
Ronaldo has none.

 

[Temptation]

I said neither of those things. I said one and 2 are Jordan and Lebron, I didn't say it is in that order, and I said it is Maradona and Pele, and I didn't said it is a tie.

What I am saying it is valid debate that will lasts for years to come, that will have both sides defending each opinion religiously. It isn't a made up thing.



Nike benefited Jordan more than he benefited them, they invested massively in him and it elevated his status and essentially made an unprecedented hype machine that didn't happen to any athlete before him at those eras.

And Jordan might not have claimed himself as GOAT, but the main again had his team working for him.
I mean for god sake, we now know about how the Bulls falsified his home games defensive states for him. How the steals of his teammates were counted for him etc. All because he was a crybaby that his own management had to cater for him. At least when Lebron pressured his management it was for better players.

Jordan was an insecure manchild.


He was so mad at the fact that Madonna wanted to bang Pippen instead of him.


Imagine being the best and the most famous dude and still getting rejected by Madonna in favour of your teammate. Brutal.