Trickykid
Active member
Wait, is something lost in translation here, or would you actually concede our next 5 La Ligas in exchange for one (1!) ChL title?
Best teams ever - where do we fit in?
- Thread starter Jurij
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Wait, is something lost in translation here, or would you actually concede our next 5 La Ligas in exchange for one (1!) ChL title?
Mitchell1978
Senior Member
You can win the CL with luck without being the best team or the most consistent just look at this year or when Chelsea won. No way i rate those wins very high.
Trickykid
Active member
Yeah, this is absolutely crazy talk. [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] is yet again way to hung up on what other people may or may not think. It's all sorts of sad not being able to celebrate your own team solely because of the opinion of others.
If it was possible, [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], you ought to reboot your interest in football all together, and find the roots of your love for the game, because this is truly messed up.
If it was possible, [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], you ought to reboot your interest in football all together, and find the roots of your love for the game, because this is truly messed up.
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serghei
Senior Member
The way I see the CL duties of a top team. What part is an objective, and what part is opened to different outcomes based on factors you can't always control.
Basically, how the CL is set up now, a top team will have a sporting obligation to reach QF every single season based on merit. From the QF draw, things don't depend on you anymore, because of the open draw. Until the QF you have more chances to control the outcome. Being first in the group of the CL is a must (since it is like a micro-league), then you get an easier draw, and once you get an easier draw in last 16, you have the obligation to make use of that advantage and get in the QF.
From then on, it's about a) either playing your best football every game, and sometimes every part of every game (because a CL tie or final can be lost in 15-20 min if you have a really bad spell, still remember those nightmarish 5 mins of Bayern vs United in '99) and get in the final even when you have the hardest draw, or b) get easier draw and have more room for error. This is the first moment when the control slips away even more. Some teams get the chance to fix an error much more easily than others (Bayern from 1-3 vs Porto, to 6-1, Real from 0-2 with Wolfsburg, to 3-0 and so on).
Basically:
1. I can accept that the team can't dominate every single game, in every important moment.
2. I can accept that there are some teams that would make you pay if no1 happens.
3. I can accept that you can a team like that usually from the QF onwards (if a team can't win a CL group, it certainly has some issues that season).
So, normally, I can't say it's our sporting obligation to make the CL semis, even if we are the best team in the world. If the laws of the competition change, than our expectations can be adjusted. As it stants, those are my expectations based on the actual format of the CL.
Basically, how the CL is set up now, a top team will have a sporting obligation to reach QF every single season based on merit. From the QF draw, things don't depend on you anymore, because of the open draw. Until the QF you have more chances to control the outcome. Being first in the group of the CL is a must (since it is like a micro-league), then you get an easier draw, and once you get an easier draw in last 16, you have the obligation to make use of that advantage and get in the QF.
From then on, it's about a) either playing your best football every game, and sometimes every part of every game (because a CL tie or final can be lost in 15-20 min if you have a really bad spell, still remember those nightmarish 5 mins of Bayern vs United in '99) and get in the final even when you have the hardest draw, or b) get easier draw and have more room for error. This is the first moment when the control slips away even more. Some teams get the chance to fix an error much more easily than others (Bayern from 1-3 vs Porto, to 6-1, Real from 0-2 with Wolfsburg, to 3-0 and so on).
Basically:
1. I can accept that the team can't dominate every single game, in every important moment.
2. I can accept that there are some teams that would make you pay if no1 happens.
3. I can accept that you can a team like that usually from the QF onwards (if a team can't win a CL group, it certainly has some issues that season).
So, normally, I can't say it's our sporting obligation to make the CL semis, even if we are the best team in the world. If the laws of the competition change, than our expectations can be adjusted. As it stants, those are my expectations based on the actual format of the CL.
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6 Ballons for Messi
but what if he wins 7??
That's crazy talk from bbz.
The dominant team is the one who has the most leagues, not the most cl's.
Look at how united fans celebrated their 19th league when they surpassed liverpool's 18, does it matter than liverpool have 5 cl's? Not at all, now united is the biggest team in england.
The dominant team is the one who has the most leagues, not the most cl's.
Look at how united fans celebrated their 19th league when they surpassed liverpool's 18, does it matter than liverpool have 5 cl's? Not at all, now united is the biggest team in england.
mehdimike
New member
Well you are right but there is one diffrence that in CL and basically in all matches you can beat other teams and win the cup.But in league?!Well maybe some backward pass by Gerrards can ruin your season
Aryagorn
Improvin' Perfection!!
I did not understand if you were tilting towards CL being the best or a league campaign being the best..... I, for one (being a marathon enthusiast), believe winning the league is much more important & much more tougher because you get the bragging rights for one whole year in front of your fans and it is what you have earned while playing before them. And it is where the luck factor has much lesser say than in the cupWell you are right but there is one diffrence that in CL and basically in all matches you can beat other teams and win the cup.But in league?!Well maybe some backward pass by Gerrards can ruin your season
About Gerrard's back pass though.... Just like how a back pass from Leo ruined our CL chances in 2012?
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AnfieldEd
I am Leg End
Firstly let's differentiate club teams from national teams.
Only these clubs should be considered at they dominated European football:-
Real Madrid (55-60) Ajax (71-73) Bayern Munich (74-76), Liverpool (76-85), AC Milan (88-95), Real Madrid (96-2002), AC Milan (2003-07), Barcelona (2006-2015).
In terms of National teams Uruguay (30's) Italy (30's) Brazil (58-70), West Germany (72-80), Brazil (94-2002) France (98-2006), Spain (2008-2012).
I have only seen club wise the Liverpool sides to the Barca 2015 side. Nationally it is from Brazil onwards.
So I have never seen live the Real team or Brazil in the 60's etc. However there should be two different rankings for each and not integrated together.
For me after reading, listening and watching those historical teams added to the teams I've witnessed live here is how I would rank them:-
Clubs:-
1. Real Madrid (55-60)
2. Barca (2006-15)
3. AC Milan (88-95)
4. Liverpool (76-85)
5. Ajax (71-73)
6. AC Milan (03-07)
7. Real Madrid (96-02)
8. Bayern (74-76)
Nationally:-
1. Brazil (58-70)
2. West Germany (72-80)
3. Italy (1930's)
4. Spain (2008-2012)
5. France (98-2002)
6. Uruguay (1930's)
7. Brazil (94-2002)
But the differences in those lists are very minute and very objectable.
For me the AC Milan team of 88-95 will always have a special place in my heart. This is because as I was a child growing up they were the team and that mixture of Italian tactics mixed with Dutch flamboyance really made them a special team. Which is why AC Milan are my Italian team to follow!!
Only these clubs should be considered at they dominated European football:-
Real Madrid (55-60) Ajax (71-73) Bayern Munich (74-76), Liverpool (76-85), AC Milan (88-95), Real Madrid (96-2002), AC Milan (2003-07), Barcelona (2006-2015).
In terms of National teams Uruguay (30's) Italy (30's) Brazil (58-70), West Germany (72-80), Brazil (94-2002) France (98-2006), Spain (2008-2012).
I have only seen club wise the Liverpool sides to the Barca 2015 side. Nationally it is from Brazil onwards.
So I have never seen live the Real team or Brazil in the 60's etc. However there should be two different rankings for each and not integrated together.
For me after reading, listening and watching those historical teams added to the teams I've witnessed live here is how I would rank them:-
Clubs:-
1. Real Madrid (55-60)
2. Barca (2006-15)
3. AC Milan (88-95)
4. Liverpool (76-85)
5. Ajax (71-73)
6. AC Milan (03-07)
7. Real Madrid (96-02)
8. Bayern (74-76)
Nationally:-
1. Brazil (58-70)
2. West Germany (72-80)
3. Italy (1930's)
4. Spain (2008-2012)
5. France (98-2002)
6. Uruguay (1930's)
7. Brazil (94-2002)
But the differences in those lists are very minute and very objectable.
For me the AC Milan team of 88-95 will always have a special place in my heart. This is because as I was a child growing up they were the team and that mixture of Italian tactics mixed with Dutch flamboyance really made them a special team. Which is why AC Milan are my Italian team to follow!!
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Ok, I exaggerated.
Let's say it this way:
-- if someone offered me now:
= Barca will win 10 La Ligas in a row and 0 CLs in the next 10 years=I would say: No, I am not satisfied with that.
Also, if someone offers:
= 2 Cls and 0 Ligas in the next 10 years=it would be poor also
My dream would be, let's say: 7 Ligas and 2-3 Cls. Or even 5 Ligas and 2 Cls (compared to 10 Ligas and 0 Cls).
Further, since I watched (and cried on majority of years) all Barca's CL knockout matches since 1994 till today, me (and other fans) needed 13 years of waiting for our title in 2006'.
Also, my feeling about the current era is: we were awesome, but we could have achieved so much more in a CL in the last 10 years.
For example, in 90s or early 00s, we weren't the best. We were always 1 out of 4-5-6 best teams.
But we always lacked some experience, luck, mental strength (and physical strength sometimes).
Then in 2004-05 (Mou's Chelsea defeat), for the first time in my life, I felt: oh boy, we are really the best in the world right now, and we are favorites in any match.
But Mou "tricked" us.
Over 10 or 40 matches, we would be better than Mou'c Chelsea, but over 2 rounds, he tricked us really, really hard.
In 2006, Rijkaard learned some things and we won.
Then we "got" Messi, the best player ever.
And while we won a lot of CLs, my feeling is still that we are naive, or without motivation, or that we are just "tricked" too often.
We really were the best team for 10 years, but we won "only" 3 Cls in that time (with in prime Messi).
Also, excuses like no team even achieved more is laughable for me.
Since no team even had Messi.
So, we basically played with cheating codes (Messi) and with an insane team around team, and yet, we were "tricked" so many times by weaker teams who just had better knockout-round tricks, like Mou's Chelsea in 2005, Mou's Inter in 2010, Chelsea in 2012, and 2 times cheaters Atletico.
I can't shake a feeling that we are strong and the best, but somehow naive, and we aren't at 100% or 120% in majority of knockout rounds in the last 10 years.
Because of all this (13 years of waiting for 2006' and because of a current era where we have Messi, and yet RM manages to win 2 Cls in 3 years, and because how we are "tricked" way too often), I just can't share your views how La Liga+cup is an awesome season (it is good, I agree, but...).
But when I try to look larger picture, I just feel that we could have achieved so much more in the last 10 years.
And again, I hope that this won't sound as doom and gloom, but especially since we will lose Messi eventually and we will see then how hard it is actually to win a CL with a team of mortals, when you need luck, physical and mental strength, and avoid to be tricked by teams who are just naturally better in "dirty tricks" then we are.
So, La Ligas are fine and everything, but especially in the last 10 years, I just feel that we are "robbed" and that we actually lost a CL title in every season (since we have Messi).
If other people are fine and happy with "invented", meaningless and commercial trophies which haven't even existed 15-20 years ago like Spanish supercup, European supercup and World's club cup, fine.
I won't whine about that too much then and I'll let you enjoy in our success and in those trophies.
In my eyes only 2 trophies exist: La Liga and a CL, where the CL is the ultimate football prize and nothing can beat it's greatness.
Cheers
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Something more to add about CL's and my disappointment, other guys said that Real NEVER lost a European knockout match to any Spanish side, except against us (Barca).
On the other hand, again, we are much more naive on the biggest stage (historically) compared to Real.
We lost to Real tons of times, we lost to Valencia in 2000, we lost to Atletico in 2014 and 2016.
I don't get that thing, why are we so easy to "get tricked" in knockout rounds, by either physically strong sides or teams like Mou's who do dirty tactical tricks on us.
To explain why I am disappointed lately with our team, and with our team naivity in general in knockout rounds, here are some classical stories:
Barcelona:Real semis 2002:
Valencia:Barcelona semis 2002: (Spanish team again do whatever they want with us in a CL knockout rounds, while we are usually better in La liga):
-- we were totally destroyed on away game, the same as on Calderon in recent years...
Or 2003, Barca:Juve, 2nd leg of quarterfinals.
First match in Italy ended 1:1, and in the 2nd match it was 1:1 after 90 minutes.
Davids (Juve) got sent off, and we play at home ground with 11 vs 10.
And guess what, a typical "Barca", we managed to get tricked and to lose at home against 10 men in the 113th minute of extra time:
So, I would like to ask one more thing now:
As said on other topics, when Barca wins CL, it is usually "in style": we are the best on paper and we are the best on field eventually.
So, we won CLs ONLY when we were by far a superior team.
On the other hand, we lost tons of CL knockout matches when we were a better team, against a 10-men team, or against team weaker teams with dirty tricks, or due to some naivity.
So, Barca losing against a 10-men team is nothing new.
Barca losing a match against a weaker opponent who is physically strong and dirty is nothing new.
Barca losing a match where we had 20:5 in shots is nothing new.
But then, an interesting question: have we EVER won a knockout round or a campaign when we weren't the best?
Have we ever won with 10 players against 11 players?
Have we ever won with 5 shots against 20 shots?
= imo, NO
We lack something psyhologically in that area.
This is what I admire in Real Madrid's team. No matter how crappy they are in some seasons, they somehow manage to "pull" a lucky goal and similar in key moments.
We are just never lucky...
We never win when we are a weaker team.
And we get easily tricked, bullied and similar.
Messi alone somehow helped to neutralize these problems in our teams.
Basically, all of our Cl titles ever came:
1. either when we were the best team by far
2. or when we had Messi+we were by far the best
It seems that we don't know how to win in any other way...
Anyway, when you sum all of this, from these 2 posts, I just can't be too happy only with La Ligas (which suit to our style since we are better on longer samples than on 1-2 knockout matches) and with "losing" so many CLs and with us getting bullied and tricked so many times in our history so easily...
For the end, I will post my "first" Barca's season (1994) when I started to watch Barca's CL matches, as a kid.
We were clear favorites, but again, like so many times, we were just tricked and bullied for some reason:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jcYPzqKPk
On the other hand, again, we are much more naive on the biggest stage (historically) compared to Real.
We lost to Real tons of times, we lost to Valencia in 2000, we lost to Atletico in 2014 and 2016.
I don't get that thing, why are we so easy to "get tricked" in knockout rounds, by either physically strong sides or teams like Mou's who do dirty tactical tricks on us.
To explain why I am disappointed lately with our team, and with our team naivity in general in knockout rounds, here are some classical stories:
Barcelona:Real semis 2002:
Valencia:Barcelona semis 2002: (Spanish team again do whatever they want with us in a CL knockout rounds, while we are usually better in La liga):
Or 2003, Barca:Juve, 2nd leg of quarterfinals.
First match in Italy ended 1:1, and in the 2nd match it was 1:1 after 90 minutes.
Davids (Juve) got sent off, and we play at home ground with 11 vs 10.
And guess what, a typical "Barca", we managed to get tricked and to lose at home against 10 men in the 113th minute of extra time:
So, I would like to ask one more thing now:
As said on other topics, when Barca wins CL, it is usually "in style": we are the best on paper and we are the best on field eventually.
So, we won CLs ONLY when we were by far a superior team.
On the other hand, we lost tons of CL knockout matches when we were a better team, against a 10-men team, or against team weaker teams with dirty tricks, or due to some naivity.
So, Barca losing against a 10-men team is nothing new.
Barca losing a match against a weaker opponent who is physically strong and dirty is nothing new.
Barca losing a match where we had 20:5 in shots is nothing new.
But then, an interesting question: have we EVER won a knockout round or a campaign when we weren't the best?
Have we ever won with 10 players against 11 players?
Have we ever won with 5 shots against 20 shots?
= imo, NO
We lack something psyhologically in that area.
This is what I admire in Real Madrid's team. No matter how crappy they are in some seasons, they somehow manage to "pull" a lucky goal and similar in key moments.
We are just never lucky...
We never win when we are a weaker team.
And we get easily tricked, bullied and similar.
Messi alone somehow helped to neutralize these problems in our teams.
Basically, all of our Cl titles ever came:
1. either when we were the best team by far
2. or when we had Messi+we were by far the best
It seems that we don't know how to win in any other way...
Anyway, when you sum all of this, from these 2 posts, I just can't be too happy only with La Ligas (which suit to our style since we are better on longer samples than on 1-2 knockout matches) and with "losing" so many CLs and with us getting bullied and tricked so many times in our history so easily...
For the end, I will post my "first" Barca's season (1994) when I started to watch Barca's CL matches, as a kid.
We were clear favorites, but again, like so many times, we were just tricked and bullied for some reason:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jcYPzqKPk
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AnfieldEd
I am Leg End
Neither dominated Europe...........you lost plenty of finals but never got over the winning line except in 85 and 96.
However that Juve team would top or be near the top of the list of 'complete' teams.
There are plenty of 'complete' teams who never dominated like they should have. I am thinking of both Juve incarnations, The Brazil and France national teams of the 80's, Bayern in the 80's, Mancs in the 90's early 00's, Benfica in the 60's (should have won at least 4 CL's that decade instead of 2) and of course the Barca dream team of the 90's. (only 1 CL was a poor return for such a team).
By 'complete' I mean teams that had absolutely everything in their locker to dominate European/world football but for some reason never got past the winning line often enough.
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Pablo Escobar
New member
Oh yeah, Juventus 2003, beating Barca and mandrill for the final and then facing Milan without Nedved because he got a worthless yellow card suspension while Milan beat underdogs Ajax in the dying moments and only qualified against Inter because of the away goal rule without any away game. As for us, we had that first record hot streak that season.
You can guess why I wanted for Milan to win that even if clearly Juve were more worthy ( and in 2004 when we didn't play and in 2005 when we were out in last 16
)
As for Valencia ( 2000, not 2002 ), it was a weird game but I was just a kid so I don't remember other circumstances than the fact it wasn't a big thing that we lost in Valencia away, more like if we would've scored an extra goal the qualification was possible. At 3-1 or 4-2 there were good chances.
As for 2002 with rma, we naturally had big chances, but the big problem was that we were totally low on players, we didn't even fill the bench, if we had the team of that season, o part of what was missing, we could've done much more and the final would've been one of the easiest rival for the final possible.
You can guess why I wanted for Milan to win that even if clearly Juve were more worthy ( and in 2004 when we didn't play and in 2005 when we were out in last 16
)As for Valencia ( 2000, not 2002 ), it was a weird game but I was just a kid so I don't remember other circumstances than the fact it wasn't a big thing that we lost in Valencia away, more like if we would've scored an extra goal the qualification was possible. At 3-1 or 4-2 there were good chances.
As for 2002 with rma, we naturally had big chances, but the big problem was that we were totally low on players, we didn't even fill the bench, if we had the team of that season, o part of what was missing, we could've done much more and the final would've been one of the easiest rival for the final possible.
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