Champions League

[BarcaOG]

hehe, love that. but i am happier to rub it into arrogant bayern fans' faces. even in the bundesLOL which is a bayern feeder system they coulndt match our total. gotta love that.

 

[Luftstalag14]

They saw what happened with Chelsea and didn't want a new rich taking over their glory and money.

It is evidenced by all the changes they have pushed into Champions League:
-first, get more spots to the big leagues to secure the money,
-second, introduce a coefficient prize money which secure more money for your past glory (hilarious),
-now, they are pushing for a closed shop league. All moves to secure their small elite clubs cartel money. They are not even hiding it with Agnelli saying Atalanta shouldn't be allowed to be in CL.

How do you explain the successive changes when needed ? Originally, it was supposed to take into account the debt but of course it wouldn't fly with the most powerful clubs. Then PSG and City get a sanction and poof, suddenly, Inter Milan and Milan AC are in the mud and get sold. What happened ? Suddenly, FFP allows a 3 year transition period to the owners to post deficits to suit those old guard clubs. Mechanically, PSG and City which had had to serve their sanctions get the remaining years of sanctions scrapped.

There is also the curious turnaround of UEFA over PSG sponsorships. Nothing to say about it for years but then Neymar/Mbapp? happen and they realize they got it all wrong lmao. They even launched an investigation just after the summer window whereas they are supposed to verify the end of the year account because you can still make sales on winter transfer or just before the end of the fiscal year. In fact, they had to create a new rule in their books to make that procedure easier (the 100 M deficit in transfer rule allowing them to instantly monitor your account).

I would have agreed if FFP was straight and strictly followed their initial rules but there were too many zig zag depending on the situation which don't sit right to me. One day this is allowed, the other it is not and we are going back on our words. As if one day, you are allowed to go up to 80 km/h on a road and then, a year later, they tell you it should have been 70 and you now have to pay for all the past transgressions.

I also don't like that clubs (Bar?a, Bayern, Real, Liverpool, etc.) or league presidents like Tebas are putting public and private pressure on UEFA and FFP bodies to punish a rival club. It should be noone business but UEFA and FFP bodies to discuss the matter. Even recently, when the transfer of Messi to PSG was being discussed in the media, Laporta said something about UEFA needed to do something if PSG gets Messi. He should just mind his business and see if Messi joins another club if UEFA find some fault. There is too much political pressure around FFP, meaning it is not "fair".

And finally, how is exactly the rule introduced to protect clubs from bad financial management (or to make them sustainable) being axed the second there is a financial crisis ? What does it tell you ? How is Bar?a in such a bad state while never been targeted by FFP while PSG is totally fine ? Seems like FFP didn't do a good job protecting Bar?a and make it sustainable.

Instead, they are now saying, you must invest money and spend (reasonably). Lmao. This is exactly what was frowned upon during the tyranny of FFP but now it is the solution. Just tells you how artifically bad FFP is. It was a scam from the beginning and it will die like the scam it was.

Never in any industry i have seen people being sanctioned because they wanted to invest their own money in their own business. Of course, in real life, those who have ral money are dealing just fine with the crisis compared to the one gambling with money they don't have.

It is about leveling the playing field and creating an environment that ensures everybody is subject to the same rules so nobody will gain any advantages just because they have more money and resources to invest and spend than others. If one is allowed to invest and spend as much as one's pockets allows him/her to, then you know clubs like PSG and City that are backed by states will have huge advantages and they will wipe out the other clubs.

I don't pretend to know FFP rules that well, I agree all clubs, old and new, big and small, regardless of historical status and tenure should be subject to the same rules.

 

[Luftstalag14]

hehe, love that. but i am happier to rub it into arrogant bayern fans' faces. even in the bundesLOL which is a bayern feeder system they coulndt match our total. gotta love that.

Honestly, not many care about that ranking. The bragging right of a club is ultimately measured by the number of trophies it won. Bayern has one more CL trophy than us already and they might add one more by the end of this season, unfortunately.

 

[khaled_a_d]

They saw what happened with Chelsea and didn't want a new rich taking over their glory and money.

It is evidenced by all the changes they have pushed into Champions League:
-first, get more spots to the big leagues to secure the money,
-second, introduce a coefficient prize money which secure more money for your past glory (hilarious),
-now, they are pushing for a closed shop league. All moves to secure their small elite clubs cartel money. They are not even hiding it with Agnelli saying Atalanta shouldn't be allowed to be in CL.

Pushing? who? Uefa? Are you sure you aren't looking it in a reverse way?
Big clubs (including oil ones) has always pushed for super league, and always threatened UEFA to get what they want.
Every one of those changes happened during a rumored independent super league, and UEFA had to react in order to keep the goose that laid the golden eggs for them.

Also, Italian clubs has been the most damaged clubs anyway, not PSG or City.

And finally, how is exactly the rule introduced to protect clubs from bad financial management (or to make them sustainable) being axed the second there is a financial crisis ?

Because in time of crisis, new investments are always welcomed, even if they weren't in the neutral times.
Look at American leagues for example, the idea of expansion of leagues like the NBA is widely considered in order to keep the league floating. Heck, no club sale, totally or partially, is being stopped.

Never in any industry i have seen people being sanctioned because they wanted to invest their own money in their own business. Of course, in real life, those who have ral money are dealing just fine with the crisis compared to the one gambling with money they don't have.

Except it is common in sport industry, the biggest sport leagues outside Europe has salary cap, which ffp is very loose in comparison for example.
In industries that leave in competitiveness and collective agreement, it is normal to prevent such financial advantage.
I think it was never meant to stop investments like City & PSG, which their presence is healthy for the game actually. But if all clubs start to be state owned with politician using it as a show for themselves, it becomes bad for the business.
There is a reason that USA businesses started to invest more in football during the time FFP was implemented, despite the fact it never stopped City or PSG.

I also don't like that clubs (Bar?a, Bayern, Real, Liverpool, etc.) or league presidents like Tebas are putting public and private pressure on UEFA and FFP bodies to punish a rival club. It should be noone business but UEFA and FFP bodies to discuss the matter. Even recently, when the transfer of Messi to PSG was being discussed in the media, Laporta said something about UEFA needed to do something if PSG gets Messi. He should just mind his business and see if Messi joins another club if UEFA find some fault. There is too much political pressure around FFP, meaning it is not "fair".

No, no one should mind his own business with billions on the line.
Football is a collective sport, where there is governing bodies. It is normal that folks in the industry would lobby and push for their agenda. Everyone can do that, including PSG and City.
It isn't like PSG doesn't have the support of one of the biggest media outlet in the whole world. They can always get their opinion to the public too.

Look, you make some good points and if you don't like its inconsistency then fair enough. But you are taking it to a conspiracy theory in other points.

PS: The rule of FFP will be changed, and will be easier, but won't be entirely removed. So hold your horses here

 

[Newcomer]

What relevance does Barca have?

Nothing that has happened at Barca is related to FFP and Barca will have to find their own way out of the debt.

'Never in any industry seen people sanctioned for wanting to invest own money'?

Majority of top sports have limits on what owners can invest.

You are speaking as a PSG fan who would benefit from unlimited spending and not damage it could do to football.

Before i'm a PSG fan, i'm a fan of football.

I guess you are too.

Tell me how exactly was football before ? It has always been that way.

Real Madrid is what it is by spending unlimited money (from Raymond Kopa to their Galacticos era) and same with most of the big clubs. Rich from you for saying it is wrong when it has been a big part of your club history and history of football. Do you admit all those clubs were wrong to spend unlimited amount of money to amass all the success they have been getting ? Should they be shamed about their practices ?

The only people complaining about it is those unhappy there is a new richer kid in the town so it must be stopped.

I don't care about it, reason why i don't fear if the Saudis are coming. It will just be another page in the football book similar to what have been done before.

Also, i only link FFP with Bar?a here to show that this rule was a scam. Supposed to protect clubs and the richest club in the world is on its knees now... Supposed to make them sustainable but has to be axed as soon as the crisis comes around. Not a good look for such a measure. I call that a scam.

Imagine i sell you a remedy for some kind of disease and the moment you are sick i tell you you absolutely must stop taking it and must revert to your older practice. This is what FFP is. A scam.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Before i'm a PSG fan, i'm a fan of football.

I guess you are too.

Tell me how exactly was football before ? It has always been that way.

Real Madrid is what it is by spending unlimited money (from Raymond Kopa to their Galacticos era) and same with most of the big clubs. Rich from you for saying it is wrong when it has been a big part of your club history and history of football. Do you admit all those clubs were wrong to spend unlimited amount of money to amass all the success they have been getting ? Should they be shamed about their practices ?

The only people complaining about it is those unhappy there is a new richer kid in the town so it must be stopped.

I don't care about it, reason why i don't fear if the Saudis are coming. It will just be another page in the football book similar to what have been done before.

Also, i only link FFP with Bar?a here to show that this rule was a scam. Supposed to protect clubs and the richest club in the world is on its knees now... Supposed to make them sustainable but has to be axed as soon as the crisis comes around. Not a good look for such a measure. I call that a scam.

Imagine i sell you a remedy for some kind of disease and the moment you are sick i tell you you absolutely must stop taking it and must revert to your older practice. This is what FFP is. A scam.

It is natural when something was at its infancy, there were very few rules around to govern it, no matter what the subject is. And as it becomes more mature, there will be more rules and regulations around it, this applies to pretty much everything.

What do you mean the FFP was axed when we have a crisis? How did we (Barca) get exempt from the FFP?

 

[JamDav1982]

Before i'm a PSG fan, i'm a fan of football.

I guess you are too.

Tell me how exactly was football before ? It has always been that way.

Real Madrid is what it is by spending unlimited money (from Raymond Kopa to their Galacticos era) and same with most of the big clubs. Rich from you for saying it is wrong when it has been a big part of your club history and history of football. Do you admit all those clubs were wrong to spend unlimited amount of money to amass all the success they have been getting ? Should they be shamed about their practices ?

The only people complaining about it is those unhappy there is a new richer kid in the town so it must be stopped.

I don't care about it, reason why i don't fear if the Saudis are coming. It will just be another page in the football book similar to what have been done before.

Also, i only link FFP with Bar?a here to show that this rule was a scam. Supposed to protect clubs and the richest club in the world is on its knees now... Supposed to make them sustainable but has to be axed as soon as the crisis comes around. Not a good look for such a measure. I call that a scam.

Imagine i sell you a remedy for some kind of disease and the moment you are sick i tell you you absolutely must stop taking it and must revert to your older practice. This is what FFP is. A scam.

You are speaking as a PSG fan before a football fan if think oil clubs should be allowed to spend billions from owners as it would ruin football.

FFP was not brought in to stop what has happened at Barca.

Teams in past have not came in and spent billions to way could now if left unregulated.

Dont care what you think about Saudi money but pointing to PSG/City being 'political' to protect themselves as all clubs are. Slating clubs for doing what likes of PSG and City do also. Every club tries to protect themselves.

It is not a scam and cant make up from thin air that UEFA are only time you have ever seen it is limited on what funds can be put in by owner when that is not true and the opposite is the case in majority of top team sports.

Football would be dead if 3/4 clubs could spend 500-600m every transfer window and offer massively high wages when those clubs dont have to run in any way as a business.

 

[Joan]

They saw what happened with Chelsea and didn't want a new rich taking over their glory and money.

It is evidenced by all the changes they have pushed into Champions League:
-first, get more spots to the big leagues to secure the money,
-second, introduce a coefficient prize money which secure more money for your past glory (hilarious),
-now, they are pushing for a closed shop league. All moves to secure their small elite clubs cartel money. They are not even hiding it with Agnelli saying Atalanta shouldn't be allowed to be in CL.

Yes. Big clubs pushed for the FFP to preserve their elite status and not allow others into the circle. But FFP wasn't strict enough, and now they share the cake with football's nouveau riche. In the light of these relatively recent developments, Europe's elite started pushing for this incestuous super league. Ceferin's best attempt at addressing the issue was the proposed new CL format, set to be approved this March. It's a super league light, but that can only slow down the movement, in my opinion, at least. It doesn't prevent other, new projects from competing at the highest level, even if it makes it hard. More money to be shared among the elites and secure CL spots. But the appetites will rise...

 

[Newcomer]

Pushing? who? Uefa? Are you sure you aren't looking it in a reverse way?
Big clubs (including oil ones) has always pushed for super league, and always threatened UEFA to get what they want.
Every one of those changes happened during a rumored independent super league, and UEFA had to react in order to keep the goose that laid the golden eggs for them.

Also, Italian clubs has been the most damaged clubs anyway, not PSG or City.




Because in time of crisis, new investments are always welcomed, even if they weren't in the neutral times.
Look at American leagues for example, the idea of expansion of leagues like the NBA is widely considered in order to keep the league floating. Heck, no club sale, totally or partially, is being stopped.




Except it is common in sport industry, the biggest sport leagues outside Europe has salary cap, which ffp is very loose in comparison for example.
In industries that leave in competitiveness and collective agreement, it is normal to prevent such financial advantage.
I think it was never meant to stop investments like City & PSG, which their presence is healthy for the game actually. But if all clubs start to be state owned with politician using it as a show for themselves, it becomes bad for the business.
There is a reason that USA businesses started to invest more in football during the time FFP was implemented, despite the fact it never stopped City or PSG.



No, no one should mind his own business with billions on the line.
Football is a collective sport, where there is governing bodies. It is normal that folks in the industry would lobby and push for their agenda. Everyone can do that, including PSG and City.
It isn't like PSG doesn't have the support of one of the biggest media outlet in the whole world. They can always get their opinion to the public too.

Look, you make some good points and if you don't like its inconsistency then fair enough. But you are taking it to a conspiracy theory in other points.

PS: The rule of FFP will be changed, and will be easier, but won't be entirely removed. So hold your horses here

I know it won't be entirely removed. They are already saying stuff you "must spend but without wasting". I already know there will be some catch and if the rules are changing so fast, it must benefit mostly the ones who have most power over UEFA which is ECA. In any case, i don't think it will benefit PSG more. I'm just happy to see that all the parading about FFP being the sole rescuer of football and football can't go forward without FFP been put to an halt and that FFP is shown for what it is. It didn't survive the first crisis. That is all i need to see. A scam.


I don't think a club or a league president should publicly put pressure for the bodies to punish another rival. They aren't the ones auditing the clubs, they should mind their business and let the governing body do their work. And Laporta is ridiculous because he is already putting pressure and threatening PSG about something that didn't happen yet and might never happen. How can he already cry over FFP for something yet to materialize ? And in the case he was right and PSG cheated to get Messi, it woudn't be Bar?a business anyway, it would be PSG and UEFA business to deal with.

 

[JamDav1982]

I know it won't be entirely removed. They are already saying stuff you "must spend but without wasting". I already know there will be some catch and if the rules are changing so fast, it must benefit mostly the ones who have most power over UEFA which is ECA. In any case, i don't think it will benefit PSG more. I'm just happy to see that all the parading about FFP being the sole rescuer of football and football can't go forward without FFP been put to an halt and that FFP is shown for what it is. It didn't survive the first crisis. That is all i need to see. A scam.


I don't think a club or a league president should publicly put pressure for the bodies to punish another rival. They aren't the ones auditing the clubs, they should mind their business and let the governing body do their work. And Laporta is ridiculous because he is already putting pressure and threatening PSG about something that didn't happen yet and might never happen. How can he already cry over FFP for something yet to materialize ? And in the case he was right and PSG cheated to get Messi, it woudn't be Bar?a business anyway, it would be PSG and UEFA business to deal with.

FFP has been good for football and limiting what likes of City and PSG can do with pouring money in from owners to distort the market further. Will see what next stage is as after 10 years maybe does need updated.

You say FFP has failed then moan about how it has impacted PSG etc so for that reason it has done part of what brought in for.

Again talking about pressures from other leagues clubs but as I said PSG and City etc have all done same with Saudi takeover of Newcastle.

Tebas and others should speak out if they believe it is in interests of own league.

Laporta can talk about whatever he likes. It will make next to no difference and is more about appealing to Barca fans than putting any political pressure on UEFA etc that will matter.

All fine if PSG think they should be able to spend whatever they want but cant force clubs into wanting to be part of same competition as them doing that.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Yes. Big clubs pushed for the FFP to preserve their elite status and not allow others into the circle. But FFP wasn't strict enough, and now they share the cake with football's nouveau riche. In the light of these relatively recent developments, Europe's elite started pushing for this incestuous super league. Ceferin's best attempt at addressing the issue was the proposed new CL format, set to be approved this March. It's a super league light, but that can only slow down the movement, in my opinion, at least. It doesn't prevent other, new projects from competing at the highest level, even if it makes it hard. More money to be shared among the elites and secure CL spots. But the appetites will rise...

I think even if something like the proposed Super League does come into fruition one day (I very much doubt it with both UEFA and more importantly, FIFA strongly opposing it), FFP or something like FFP that provides a framework on what clubs can and can't do will still exist. The pie will be bigger, everybody will get a bigger share and receive more money and everyone's revenue will grow, but clubs like PSG and City will still have much more money than the other clubs if they are allowed to spend freely without any restrictions. Non-PSG/City clubs will want to protect themselves, PSG and City and clubs alike will also not want to ruin the pie so they have nothing left to make money off of.

 

[JamDav1982]

I think even if something like the proposed Super League does come into fruition one day (I very much doubt it with both UEFA and more importantly, FIFA strongly opposing it), FFP or something like FFP that provides a framework on what clubs can and can't do will still exist. The pie will be bigger, everybody will get a bigger share and receive more money and everyone's revenue will grow, but clubs like PSG and City will still have much more money than the other clubs if they are allowed to spend freely without any restrictions. Non-PSG/City clubs will want to protect themselves, PSG and City and clubs alike will also not want to ruin the pie so they have nothing left to make money off of.

Of course a version of FFP would exist in a Superleague.

The top clubs would not join a league with PSG/City etc that can spend billions at the whim of an owner.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I know it won't be entirely removed. They are already saying stuff you "must spend but without wasting". I already know there will be some catch and if the rules are changing so fast, it must benefit mostly the ones who have most power over UEFA which is ECA. In any case, i don't think it will benefit PSG more. I'm just happy to see that all the parading about FFP being the sole rescuer of football and football can't go forward without FFP been put to an halt and that FFP is shown for what it is. It didn't survive the first crisis. That is all i need to see. A scam.


I don't think a club or a league president should publicly put pressure for the bodies to punish another rival. They aren't the ones auditing the clubs, they should mind their business and let the governing body do their work. And Laporta is ridiculous because he is already putting pressure and threatening PSG about something that didn't happen yet and might never happen. How can he already cry over FFP for something yet to materialize ? And in the case he was right and PSG cheated to get Messi, it woudn't be Bar?a business anyway, it would be PSG and UEFA business to deal with.

Of course it is our business. Hypothetically if PSG somehow circumvents the FFP to sign Messi, for example, then it wouldn't be fair to us, meaning even if we did our best to put forth an offer it would still not be good enough compared to PSG's because PSG spends more than it is allowed to by breaking the FFP.

What are these rule changes you are talking about? And by "crisis", are you talking about COVID? Can you cite some specific examples?

 

[khaled_a_d]

I don't think a club or a league president should publicly put pressure for the bodies to punish another rival. They aren't the ones auditing the clubs, they should mind their business and let the governing body do their work. And Laporta is ridiculous because he is already putting pressure and threatening PSG about something that didn't happen yet and might never happen. How can he already cry over FFP for something yet to materialize ? And in the case he was right and PSG cheated to get Messi, it woudn't be Bar?a business anyway, it would be PSG and UEFA business to deal with.

In ideal world? Yes.
But we don't live in ideal world, and people with power and platform will always fight for their institutions.
Same way coach like SAF would put pressure on opponents and play mind games through the media. You don't win by being entirely nice and being obedient to the rules and etiquette of business.
You are also free to dislike/criticize him, call him out as hypocrite or do the same. Fair game

 

[Joan]

I think even if something like the proposed Super League does come into fruition one day (I very much doubt it with both UEFA and more importantly, FIFA strongly opposing it), FFP or something like FFP that provides a framework on what clubs can and can't do will still exist. The pie will be bigger, everybody will get a bigger share and receive more money and everyone's revenue will grow, but clubs like PSG and City will still have much more money than the other clubs if they are allowed to spend freely without any restrictions. Non-PSG/City clubs will want to protect themselves, PSG and City and clubs alike will also not want to ruin the pie so they have nothing left to make money off of.

Must say that I don't think FFP is a scam or anything and that it should be abolished. It has its purpose, and it's been pointed out before, regulations in football are still rather loose compared to some other sports, American ones primarily. Unregulated football might change things drastically. Clubs like Barca could be forced into a change of ownership models to stay relevant, to start with. But while it has its advantages, can't deny it's been brought up to protect the status quo.

Of course, the super league would need FFP in one form or another. Before I thought there was no chance of it. But reminds me of that old greek myth. How the Titans were finally killed once the new gods realized they had the power. The big clubs are the big earners. Uefa will need to bend. As they no doubt will.