FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
In general football is weak
Ciro Immobile
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In general football is weak
Yannik
Senior Member
not weak, just imbalanced. 5-10 clubs have all the good players, the rest desperately clings onto relevance or begs the Saudis for lunch money.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Some interesting discussions here:
Regarding defense being worse now than then, I totally disagree. I simply think football is more figured out now than it was few decades ago.
One thing to remember in this discussion, great offense always beats great defense, simply due to the fact that defense is a reaction move.
I am not sure how many of you know anything about basketball, but 3 of the best 4 offense in history (by efficiency) have been played in past 4 seasons (GSW and Dallas). The reason isn't that we have greater players, because dallas simply don't, but because it is figured out that 3PT is mathematically great shot, if you shoot an average 35% that means 105 points every 100 attempts, while an elite mid range game at 50% will produce just 100 pts. Also figured that post game clog the lanes. So bb went from being mid range, post up game into attack the rim, get free throws and shoot whole lot of 3 PT. This stretch defense and make everything effective.
Things in football are far more complicated, but at the end the idea is always to get a good separation for attacker to finish. This is true in football, basketball or handball etc.
The change between 90's football is significant, the role of wingers and strikers along midfield has changed a lot.
A prime example of that is Luis Figo, one of the world finest players in his time: Figo ,who is a RW, has scored a total 112 goals while making 173 assists. Beckham had 127 goals while putting 202 assists.
A player who plays in same position now is Salah, who so far has scored 171 goals and making 94 assists (all those numbers are club based) at the age of 28 shows the difference in the roles. Robben had 209 goals and 164 assists.
There is a clear change in the roles of a winger between the Figo days and Robber/Salah days.
Back in the day, wingers were asked to assist more and make things easier for strikers. But it was actually easier for defense to close down on those strikers. The pitch is clamped and crowded more.
Now look at no 9 players. : Back in the 90's they were primary goal scorers -again make things easier for defense- but nowadays their role is to make things easier for the attack in addition to score goals.
Players like Suarez and Benzema knew where to be and when to be there, to make life easier for Messi/CR7 or even Neymar/Bale. Firmino is one of the top strikers because everything is easier for Salah & Mane when he is there. They drag defense and open things up, they know how to pass with their back to the target etc.
Before them Villa & Eto was like that but also knew how to change positions with strikers. The early days of false 9 was with Ronaldinho playing as false 9 and Eto being LW under Rijkaard (2006 CL final prime example of it) and then Eto changing position with Messi to RW during late 2009 season. It continued with Villa in 2010-2011
A statistical comparison is difficult but Vieri had 141 goals and 14 assists in his Serie A career, that is close to 10:1 goal: assist. Lewa has less than 4:1, Batistuta ratio is even bigger though I suspect there might be many assists not recorded back then.
Same goes with role of midfield and the extinction of pure number 10, player like Riquelme would have been competing for Bd?r if he was born a decade or so earlier. But when he came to scene he would have to adapt to either being a CM in the mold of Deco/Ballack or being a winger like R10 did. He failed to adapt and hence his career ended up in Villarreal/Boca
Looking at the big picture, teams are now reliant on many players to initiate things, midfield plays deeper (at least in start of play) and attackers are more dynamic and their movements open things for everyone. It is more complicated than it was in the 90's and now defenses has more difficult job ahead of them. If midfield isn't protecting defense enough then they are screwed even if you have the top defender in every position (RB/CB/LB)
In Pep era, we could start attack with no one close to penalty area, but in 10 seconds you have 3 of MVP trio/Alves/Iniesta/Xavi passing the ball in the box or near it. That is more difficult for defenders than taking a number 9 out of the game.
Also Yannik raise a good point, top teams are now more heavily armed. You won't get Batistuta staying in fiorentina for years and then move to Roma. By the age of 23 he will be playing at Juve/Inter or in EPL top 4 clubs etc.
Regarding defense being worse now than then, I totally disagree. I simply think football is more figured out now than it was few decades ago.
One thing to remember in this discussion, great offense always beats great defense, simply due to the fact that defense is a reaction move.
I am not sure how many of you know anything about basketball, but 3 of the best 4 offense in history (by efficiency) have been played in past 4 seasons (GSW and Dallas). The reason isn't that we have greater players, because dallas simply don't, but because it is figured out that 3PT is mathematically great shot, if you shoot an average 35% that means 105 points every 100 attempts, while an elite mid range game at 50% will produce just 100 pts. Also figured that post game clog the lanes. So bb went from being mid range, post up game into attack the rim, get free throws and shoot whole lot of 3 PT. This stretch defense and make everything effective.
Things in football are far more complicated, but at the end the idea is always to get a good separation for attacker to finish. This is true in football, basketball or handball etc.
The change between 90's football is significant, the role of wingers and strikers along midfield has changed a lot.
A prime example of that is Luis Figo, one of the world finest players in his time: Figo ,who is a RW, has scored a total 112 goals while making 173 assists. Beckham had 127 goals while putting 202 assists.
A player who plays in same position now is Salah, who so far has scored 171 goals and making 94 assists (all those numbers are club based) at the age of 28 shows the difference in the roles. Robben had 209 goals and 164 assists.
There is a clear change in the roles of a winger between the Figo days and Robber/Salah days.
Back in the day, wingers were asked to assist more and make things easier for strikers. But it was actually easier for defense to close down on those strikers. The pitch is clamped and crowded more.
Now look at no 9 players. : Back in the 90's they were primary goal scorers -again make things easier for defense- but nowadays their role is to make things easier for the attack in addition to score goals.
Players like Suarez and Benzema knew where to be and when to be there, to make life easier for Messi/CR7 or even Neymar/Bale. Firmino is one of the top strikers because everything is easier for Salah & Mane when he is there. They drag defense and open things up, they know how to pass with their back to the target etc.
Before them Villa & Eto was like that but also knew how to change positions with strikers. The early days of false 9 was with Ronaldinho playing as false 9 and Eto being LW under Rijkaard (2006 CL final prime example of it) and then Eto changing position with Messi to RW during late 2009 season. It continued with Villa in 2010-2011
A statistical comparison is difficult but Vieri had 141 goals and 14 assists in his Serie A career, that is close to 10:1 goal: assist. Lewa has less than 4:1, Batistuta ratio is even bigger though I suspect there might be many assists not recorded back then.
Same goes with role of midfield and the extinction of pure number 10, player like Riquelme would have been competing for Bd?r if he was born a decade or so earlier. But when he came to scene he would have to adapt to either being a CM in the mold of Deco/Ballack or being a winger like R10 did. He failed to adapt and hence his career ended up in Villarreal/Boca
Looking at the big picture, teams are now reliant on many players to initiate things, midfield plays deeper (at least in start of play) and attackers are more dynamic and their movements open things for everyone. It is more complicated than it was in the 90's and now defenses has more difficult job ahead of them. If midfield isn't protecting defense enough then they are screwed even if you have the top defender in every position (RB/CB/LB)
In Pep era, we could start attack with no one close to penalty area, but in 10 seconds you have 3 of MVP trio/Alves/Iniesta/Xavi passing the ball in the box or near it. That is more difficult for defenders than taking a number 9 out of the game.
Also Yannik raise a good point, top teams are now more heavily armed. You won't get Batistuta staying in fiorentina for years and then move to Roma. By the age of 23 he will be playing at Juve/Inter or in EPL top 4 clubs etc.
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El Gato
Villarato!
This I absolutely despise about basketball RN.
I know we're not meant to be regressive and should give credit to 3PT shooters for making what is probably the most difficult shot in the game a routine, but it's made the game so.. bland. There's something really primal, fiery and competitive about watching mid-range game and the fact that right now for you to be the best player in NBA you just need to be as mechanical as possible about your jumper, it takes away from the battle experience IMO. But maybe it is the 'old man' in me talking.
Something must be done IMO. I'm not sure if NBA is 'more popular than ever' or if it's just jogging along in ratings and popularity, without looking at the data I'd say it isn't. And if it isn't then we need to perhaps add value to the game inside the arc. Not sure how.
Make 'and-a-foul' plays inside the key get +2 free throws?
Yup, agree with all of this.
Wingers really were sidekicks to strikers in that era. Now they aren't. And strikers aren't crap by comparison now, but the balance in midfield that has been achieved through 4-3-3 becoming normalised, resulted in 2 striker systems becoming obsolete and now it's for the benefit of everyone else if the striker doesn't carry the rest alone in the centre. See Madrid case - Benzema as topscorer without product-driven inside forwards results in one of the worst scoring campaigns in 20 years.
I don't like it either and I'd love some smart manager to figure out the best way of playing 3-5-2, so that we can all enjoy 2 CFs again across Europe. But it's not easy when so many teams play with at least 2 players out wide. Part of the reason why Dortmund aren't as successful with their 3-4-3 as they'd like to be.
My hopes lie in Pochettino and Zidane who are more inventive than Conte, but it's a big ask now that all of the kids in academies have grown up to love Messi, Mbappe, Neymar, Hazard etc all of whom are inside forwards.
Yep, again.
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khaled_a_d
Senior Member
I replied to the basketball part in NBA thread, so we won't drag this thread further.
I had a discussion about this with BBZ when I was interested in Felix.
Second Strikers has been a trend lately.
Messi has played it since 2016, though it resulted in unbalanced team except in 17/18 season.
CR7 has played it with RM late years and even with Juve, Griezmann was star of both French NT and Atletico. But 442 system is built for SS to exist.
Salah do it a lot especially in 18/19 season, but he has stamina and Speed to hold SS in attack and RW in defense .
It is a bit on the rise, but it is more of a tactical evolution to get your best scorers near the goal than producing a system. Will be interesting to see how it evolves.
I had a discussion about this with BBZ when I was interested in Felix.
Second Strikers has been a trend lately.
Messi has played it since 2016, though it resulted in unbalanced team except in 17/18 season.
CR7 has played it with RM late years and even with Juve, Griezmann was star of both French NT and Atletico. But 442 system is built for SS to exist.
Salah do it a lot especially in 18/19 season, but he has stamina and Speed to hold SS in attack and RW in defense .
It is a bit on the rise, but it is more of a tactical evolution to get your best scorers near the goal than producing a system. Will be interesting to see how it evolves.
El Gato
Villarato!
I don't think SS is as much a trend right now as it is a happenstance that some forwards are net benefit to the team when they occupy the middle. Not to say the transition isn't going to happen.
Sterling isn't bad in the middle either (the English were very hard on him throughout the WC because he wasn't producing stats) and Mbappe may very likely end up a Ronaldo type forward at Madrid eventually as sticking a right footed player on the RW may feel quite alien to him long term, but again I'm not sure you could draw predictions on what we've seen.
Sterling isn't bad in the middle either (the English were very hard on him throughout the WC because he wasn't producing stats) and Mbappe may very likely end up a Ronaldo type forward at Madrid eventually as sticking a right footed player on the RW may feel quite alien to him long term, but again I'm not sure you could draw predictions on what we've seen.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
About more goals, the differences between big and small teams are bigger than in the past.
Juve and Bayern have like 10 titles in a row.
Bayern is winning 5:0 on average.
To some extent, even Messi's and Cr7's numbers are inflated due to 6:0 easy matches.
In 90s, Italy had 7 clubs fighting for the title: Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, Parma.
Today they have 1 team fighting for the title.
Also, if you have 7 big teams, you have 12 derby matches, and those matches are usually tight and cautious and end with 0:0, 1:0 and similar.
If you have only one big team, majority of matches are 5:0 wins and there is no need for cautious 0:0 matches.
For example, one of the strongest teams of all time, AC Milan from early 90s, who played 5 CL finals in 7 years won Seria A with 36:15 goals difference in 1994.
So:
1. One of the best teams in a history
2. And a team who humiliated Barca 4:0 in a CL final that season
= managed to score the same number of goals as Ciro Immobile this season.
Lol.
Football is totally different.
Big teams are way richer than their opponents.
And then top teams are scoring 4-5-6 goals per game for fun and thus their strikers look like supermen.
As explained, a large part of goals by Messi, Cr7, Lewandowski, Suarez is inflated due to a huge differences between big and small teams.
Juve and Bayern have like 10 titles in a row.
Bayern is winning 5:0 on average.
To some extent, even Messi's and Cr7's numbers are inflated due to 6:0 easy matches.
In 90s, Italy had 7 clubs fighting for the title: Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, Parma.
Today they have 1 team fighting for the title.
Also, if you have 7 big teams, you have 12 derby matches, and those matches are usually tight and cautious and end with 0:0, 1:0 and similar.
If you have only one big team, majority of matches are 5:0 wins and there is no need for cautious 0:0 matches.
For example, one of the strongest teams of all time, AC Milan from early 90s, who played 5 CL finals in 7 years won Seria A with 36:15 goals difference in 1994.
So:
1. One of the best teams in a history
2. And a team who humiliated Barca 4:0 in a CL final that season
= managed to score the same number of goals as Ciro Immobile this season.
Lol.
Football is totally different.
Big teams are way richer than their opponents.
And then top teams are scoring 4-5-6 goals per game for fun and thus their strikers look like supermen.
As explained, a large part of goals by Messi, Cr7, Lewandowski, Suarez is inflated due to a huge differences between big and small teams.
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What the hell. Just had a check:
They got a total of 50 points that season, with 34 games.
After that Juve won with 73 points, scoring 59 goals. And the years after that kept having a more normal amount of points.
But up until 1994 the winner rarely had much more than 50 points.
Biggest teams got stronger in 1994 or what?
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
Different rules back then, winner only got 2 points. It was changed in 1994 for Serie A.
Milan had 19 wins 12 draws 3 defeats in 93/94 so by todays rules that would equal 69 points.
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El Gato
Villarato!
I wouldn't call half of them consistent title contenders from what I know. Inter were top6 team throughout the 90s, but more of a Sevilla calibre. The Rome clubs, Viola and Parma were the cool kids on the block but not consistent and not enough substance.
They did certainly benefit from a more evenly distributed talent pool, great Argies ending up in some shithole in the middle of Italy etc, but they league wasn't that widespread for teams who truly were championship material.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Football talent distribution totally changed after Bosman laws in 1995.
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Good point. Insane 36-15. How can you win?
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Btw, list of Milan's matches in 1994:
Lecce 1:0
Genoa 1:0
Piacenza 0:0
Atalanta 2:0
Roma 2:0
Cremonese 2:0
Lazio 0:0
Foggia 1:1
Juventus 1:1
Sampdoria 2:3
Inter 2:1
Napoli 2:1
Parma 0:0
Torino 1:0
Cagliari 2:1
Reggiana 1:0
Udinese 0:0
Lecce 0:0
Genoa 0:0
Piacenza 2:0
Atalanta 1:0
Roma 2:0
Cremonese 1:0
Lazio 1:0
Foggia 2:1
Juventus 1:0
Sampdoria 1:0
Inter 2:1
Napoli 0:1
Parma 1:1
Torino 0:0
Udinese 2:2
Cagliari 0:0
Reggiana 0:1
Ac Milan top scorers in league:
11 Massaro
5 Papin
4 Boban
3 Albertini
3 Simone
On the other hand, their results in a CL:
Aarau (Switzerland) 1:0, 0:0
Copenhagen 6:0, 1:0
CL quarters, group stage
Anderlecht 0:0
Porto 3:0
Werder 2:1
Werder 1:1
Anderlecht 0:0
Porto 0:0
Cl semis:
Monaco 3:0
Final:
Barcelona 4:0
In Seria A, they didn't score more than 2 goals on any game in the whole season.
In a CL, they had big wins:
Copenhagen 6:0
Porto 3:0
Monaco 3:0
Barca 4:0
So, they couldn't score more than 2 past Foggia, Lecce or Piacenza, yet they won 3:0 in one-legged semis against Monaco and 4:0 in a final against Cruijff's Dream Team Barca.
There weren't 5:0 and 8:1 league wins back then like today in a case of Barca, Real, Bayern, Psg, Juve etc.
Suarez would probably have 10 goals in that era.
Neymar 4.
serghei
Senior Member
But how come you recognize that today's era means players score a lot of goals easier, but at the same time think Barca will have nobody to score goals once Messi and Suarez are gone?
The era doesn't change. You have somebody like Immobile scoring 36, it's not unlikely sometime in the next 2 years after Messi and Suarez are gone, some Barca player will bag even more than that, with a much better team behind them than Lazio.
The era doesn't change. You have somebody like Immobile scoring 36, it's not unlikely sometime in the next 2 years after Messi and Suarez are gone, some Barca player will bag even more than that, with a much better team behind them than Lazio.
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