Coutinho, Verratti or Mahrez?

[khaled_a_d]

My point was that CMs playing at a very high level are hard to find compared to AMs. I know Ozil won't fit in this team and I don't like him either as he's probably one of the most overrated players in the last decade IMO. Verratti is a very creative midfielder, has created most chances in Ligue 1 this season which for a player playing deeper is quite an achievement. Someone like Thiago who can play further forward too would have been great, but then we sold him and many people don't like him either.

Messi need to play as an AM so a RW would be nice, but Coutinho is not that. Bernardo Silva could suit that role quite well, but he plays as an attacking midfielder for Monaco. Him and Lemar start out wide, but drift in toward the center-left/center-right and try to create chances and plays from there. So while it may seem like he's a right winger or wide midfielder, he isn't.

The influence Verratti can bring is both as a creator and someone who can play a different way to all our midfielders. He's a multi-dimensional midfielder which are rare.

Just a preference really. Every team could use a midfielder like Verratti, Kroos/Modric, Koke, Thiago. These players are able to function with an AM in the team too.

I agree with the bit about negotiating with Spurs as Levy doesn't let any of his players go for less than what he values them at. Neither of Eriksen or Coutinho will cost less than 80m though.

I understand your point but I really think it is mute from Barca standpoint which is what this discussion is about.

1-I have seen Barca winning 4 CL since I became a football & Barca fan in the late 90's,our starting midfield in them was
-Edmilson(DM) MVB(CM) Deco(AM)
-Yaya(DM) Xavi(CM) Iniesta(AM)
-Busquets (DM) Xavi(CM) Iniesta(AM)
-Busquets (DM) Rakitic(CM) Iniesta(AM)
Those were the most dominant Barca I've seen too
In all 4 we had one of the world top creative AM in Deco & Iniesta,only in 2 we had an elite pure CM in Xavi. and Xavi at his prime was levels above Verratti ,way more consistent too against top teams.

I think that this team shown it can operates with different CM,all were really good players but only Xavi was an elite one,AM on the other hand was the heart of our attacking build up. I do think it is the more important position unless you are one of the "Pep is Barca" type of fan who believe only his way of heavy dominant midfield set up is the way to play the game.


2-Also I think it is really more difficult for us to have that kind of AM, Rafinha was Liga young player of the year,Denis was really one of the best rising stars in Liga,Arda was an important player in A.Madrid team and all has failed to play the AM position here and with the exception of Arda that is their true position actually. There is an argument that all are even better on wings than AM in our system. All have failed as CM too but they were never CM


3-Then the most important part is the system we are gonna use, If Messi stays as AM as we both agree it opens the space for a new RW, the question is what system we are gonna use is essential.so in 4-3-3 what if coach priority will be dominant midfield? Verratti will be perfect, but if he need a workhorse that cover for Messi and a gr8 RW? I think Rakitic will stay in that position and more money will be invested in RW (Dembele/Silva)

4-All in all if it ever happened and we signed Verratti I would welcome him for sure,but if it happened and he moved to another club while we moved to another target I won't mind it either and depending on who we sign I think it might be better approach.
More important I don't think Verratti is worth us to have a 2013 type of summer like we did with Neymar, We have a glaring need in RB probably more than any other position (unless we stay with 3-4-3 which I doubt) and even RW might be bigger need than CM too.

 

[Neymessi]

People put verratti way ahead of coutinhio but I think the difference isn't that much even though I also think verratti is better.

Verratti would be a xavi replacement and coutinhio will be a iniesta replacement, in a nutshell.

And at this moment we need both and i think both will fit well. But yeah a xavi replacement is much more needed because we need 'control' in midfield we haven't had for ages now whereas a replacement for iniesta is needed less considering MSN as an attacking threat already.

 

[Ghostmaster]

Coutinho is a winger/CAM, we have plenty of those. There are plenty cheaper options in the market

Mahrez: yet another winger, left footed, cuts in, won't compliment Messi.
You can't have two players on the right all cutting in, it's chaotic. One needs to be able to overlap another

Veratti: deep laying playmaker, this is what we need.
Creative, Defensively solid, young, great passing and holding the ball.
Perfect midfielder for us

Coutinho played in various midfield positions under Rodgers, yes this season he plays more as a winger, but it doesn't mean we can't groom him into pure CM. He has enough talent to beat the defenders and deliver the ball to MSN so they can do their magic and if Unzue succeeds Lucho, I have no doubt that's what he's going to demand from his midfielders. Or let me put this another way - Verratti and Thiago is never going to happen and Coutinho>Gomes, so the choice is clear

 

[gasgas]

Coutinho played in various midfield positions under Rodgers, yes this season he plays more as a winger, but it doesn't mean we can't groom him into pure CM. He has enough talent to beat the defenders and deliver the ball to MSN so they can do their magic and if Unzue succeeds Lucho, I have no doubt that's what he's going to demand from his midfielders. Or let me put this another way - Verratti and Thiago is never going to happen and Coutinho>Gomes, so the choice is clear

Are we gonna spend 60 M yet again on a player who doesn't play in the position we want but we can "groom" him
Are we gonna go down that road again?

 

[serghei]

People put verratti way ahead of coutinhio but I think the difference isn't that much even though I also think verratti is better.

Verratti would be a xavi replacement and coutinhio will be a iniesta replacement, in a nutshell.

And at this moment we need both and i think both will fit well. But yeah a xavi replacement is much more needed because we need 'control' in midfield we haven't had for ages now whereas a replacement for iniesta is needed less considering MSN as an attacking threat already.

Yea, think the same. But the issue is a Xavi replacement won't be on the market probably, because imo this goes down to 2 players, Verratti and Koke. Both are not exactly like Xavi but woud be great CMs in this Barcelona side I think.

But if we have a chance to land a quality AM, then we need to take it. We already missed out on Isco. Can't afford to miss out again.

 

[Ghostmaster]

Are we gonna spend 60 M yet again on a player who doesn't play in the position we want but we can "groom" him
Are we gonna go down that road again?

Well, we did groom Rakitic, didn't we? He played AM, DM and what not in Sevilla, but become pure CM at Barca, sure he suffered a lot this season when Alves left and with Lucho's tactics, but I think he's is a success story.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=11668]khaled_a_d[/MENTION], that is true. Xavi's greatest impact was on the style of the team. He was the closest thing to a man-system perfect match. Replicating the style of the team as if the team would still have Xavi in it, would automatically mean less domination through possession. That is not to say we can't win as much as with Xavi while keeping the same style, but I'm sure we can't be as dominating (as in domination does not equal only titles, but also the manner in which you win mostly).

However, the issue at hand is that Barcelona does not want to alter the style post-Pep anymore. So the pressure is on us re-achieving that style. So the fans and the media are actually putting pressure on a midfield dominating team again.

 

[khaled_a_d]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] Fans want to win and watch beautiful football,the football we played in treble season & last season before March FIFA virus was all appreciated by the fans. And it was MSN dominant not Rakitic dominant.
I think we moved on from it and there is no coming back in the near future, Fans will always be nostalgic about it 9\can't blame them) but I think the decision makers knows how danger it is to try to replicate it,even Pep failed to do so with other clubs.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] Fans want to win and watch beautiful football,the football we played in treble season & last season before March FIFA virus was all appreciated by the fans. And it was MSN dominant not Rakitic dominant.
I think we moved on from it and there is no coming back in the near future, Fans will always be nostalgic about it 9\can't blame them) but I think the decision makers knows how danger it is to try to replicate it,even Pep failed to do so with other clubs.

True, but here is the difference. When we fail playing the Barca style (see 2011-2012 season, which was a failure), there is less heat from the fans and the media, than when we fail with some other style. So, there is an extra pressure from fans and press regarding how Barcelona plays, that is best seen in bad seasons.

Sure, in good seasons, everybody is happy the team is winning. But in bad seasons you will hear many fans and media outlets saying how 'Barca are losing their identity'. Nobody said anything when Bayern had more possession than us on Camp Nou in 2015.

 

[BBZ8800]

I would like Verratti, but I have some hunch feeling that we are soooooo going to buy Coutinho this summer.

I would like Coutinho here also.
I can't explain it in words, but Coutinho "feels" as a textbook example of a player whom we would purchase over and over in 90s till Xavi-Iniesta.
We had so many players of his style in the past, but not too often players like Verratti.

Also, our history is filled with examples of always going all out in attack and always splashing big on attackers, wingers and creators-attacking midfielders.
So, imo, if we would have a chance to splash money on an attacking player or a more defensive minded, we usually always picked attacking players.

So, since Verratti probably won't go away from Psg, I don't see any other midfielder who is even close to Coutinho in terms of what we are usually looking for:
1. proven on a highest level in some other club for at least 2-3 season (Bernardo is not yet there)
2. somewhat young
3. has some flair and something "magical"
4. a Brasilian/Dutch player/Arsenal player/Valencia's player, a player who could fit here (on paper)
5. his club is somewhat interested to cash on him probably

I don't know. Imo, it will be Coutinho 90% surely (unless if Psg decides to sell Verratti).

 

[khaled_a_d]

True, but here is the difference. When we fail playing the Barca style (see 2011-2012 season, which was a failure), there is less heat from the fans and the media, than when we fail with some other style. So, there is an extra pressure from fans and press regarding how Barcelona plays, that is best seen in bad seasons.

Sure, in good seasons, everybody is happy the team is winning. But in bad seasons you will hear many fans and media outlets saying how 'Barca are losing their identity'. Nobody said anything when Bayern had more possession than us on Camp Nou in 2015.

When we play bad in pure Pep way ( I don't think it is Barca way FWIW) we actually fail to play it. And there was a lot of criticism to it from fans of how passive we are,how it is just possession for sake of possession. We lost possession when we beaten Bayern in 2015 and had it when they smashed us in 2013.
Fans care about winning and entertainment more,media cares about headlines more. They will find something to add pressure anyway. If the board is thinking about it then it is alarming,but I doubt they do.
I think one of Lucho achievement is that he made us finally move from that Pep hangover, Football moves fast and when Pep made such great football teams started to respond. Right now I have my doubts that even the clones of 2011 team would have same success right now.

 

[JamDav1982]

I like the idea of signing Coutinho as he can play across the attacking mid positions and in CM even if he would be more of an AM and need a bit of cover.

Adds a lot of versatility but still think midfield needs strengthened even if sign him.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

I like the idea of a Coutinho-Raki swap. It's a win for both clubs and players.

I just think we have to keep Neymar here longer to have any chance of success in the future and I think that alone is why we should sign Coutinho. He's just as good if not slightly better than Isco, Verratti/Thiago are better as far as what the team needs but both seem pretty unattainable.

 

[gasgas]

I like the idea of a Coutinho-Raki swap. It's a win for both clubs and players.

I just think we have to keep Neymar here longer to have any chance of success in the future and I think that alone is why we should sign Coutinho. He's just as good if not slightly better than Isco, Verratti/Thiago are better as far as what the team needs but both seem pretty unattainable.

Tall player out, midget in Yaay
Defensively good player out, defensive mess in


Perfect, will solve our defensive issues and set pieces problem

 

[BBZ8800]

Tall player out, midget in Yaay
Defensively good player out, defensive mess in


Perfect, will solve our defensive issues and set pieces problem

Still, we are Barca.
When we buy a defensive midfielder, we don't need a player who is defending like crazy (Mascherano), but we need a playmaker who is ok-ish in defense.
So, imo, I would say: it is 70% of playmaking, passing, creating and attacking vs 30% defending.
Rb: the same. Roberto is not bad because he can't defend. He is mostly bad because he offers zero in attack.
So, imo, it is again 70:30 or 60:40 for attacking, creating, linking up vs defending.

About Rakitic, he turned 29 and lately we can see that his legs aren't there as they used to be.
He could easily turn into Schweinsteiger rapidly in the next 12-18 Months.
Even if not, it is not as if Rakitic will be a starter for the next 5 years here.
So, Coutinho or attacking midfielders can be compared with Rakitic only short term, like in the next season.
In 12-18 Months, Rakitic will hardly be in this story as a starter.

Also, in the past, for example, in Deco-Xavi days, Deco was creating but also scoring a lot.
In 90s we also had midfielders who were scoring much more than current midfielders.

Look at Van Gaal's 343 for example:
http://www.worldfootball.net/report/champions-league-1998-1999-gruppe-d-manchester-united-fc-barcelona/

Goalkeeper: Hesp
Defense: Reiziger, Abelardo, Sergi
Midfield: Cdm Cocu, Wingers Figo and Zenden, midfielder Lucho
Attack: Rivaldo, Sony Anderson, Giovanni

That's 7 players who can score a goal.
Figo was scoring a lot. 30 La liga goals in 5 seasons. 6 goals per season.
Lucho was scoring like crazy both as an attacker and midfielder.
Cocu was scoring a lot. 31 La liga league goals in 6 seasons, 5 per season.

Today, we have MSN who can score.
And Rakitic scores from time.
Iniesta can't score goals. Busi is not scoring.
So, today we have Msn+Raki (or Rafinha sometimes).

Coutinho ALONE scored more league goals as a CAM for Liverpool than Iniesta+Rakitic+Busi together in the same time.
Coutinho has 27 goals in 127 league matches.
Busi has 2 in the last 123 league matches.
Iniesta has 7 goals in the last 133 league matches.
Rakitic has 17 goals in 91 league matches for Barca.

That is: Coutinho 127 matches=27 goals
Our 3 guys: 347 matches=26 goals

Ok, Raki would get 3-4-5 more goals in the next 30 matches (to equal Coutinho's 127 league matches), but you get the point.
Coutinho brings goals. And Barca was always abut goals and attacking (except in Pep's era where midfielders were creating and controlling mostly).

Also, about a defensive mess, if Coutinho is a new Iniesta, imo, he wouldn't bring more mess than Iniesta.
About a new Raki, we still have the current Raki. We will have Roberto in that position who is the same type of a hard-worker.
And who knows, maybe we'll buy a new hardworking Cm till then.

So, I don't see Coutinho as the new Raki, but as a new Iniesta.
Or, more accurate, a new Deco. a type of a goalscoring attacking midfielder.

Also, imagine Coutinho with MSN at Camp Nou against Leganes and similar, when we have 15-20 shots on goal per match.
His team (Barca) will have much more possession, passes and shots than Liverpool.
Which means more shooting chances for Coutinho.
If 2-3 players are marking Messi, then Suarez will have an easy way to shoot.
If opponents will mark both Messi and Suarez, then Neymar and Coutinho will be free.
If 2 guys will man mark Neymar, Coutinho will be free.
You can't mark both MSN+Coutinho around the box. You will need 15 defenders for that