Coutinho, Verratti or Mahrez?

[gasgas]

Still, we are Barca.
When we buy a defensive midfielder, we don't need a player who is defending like crazy (Mascherano), but we need a playmaker who is ok-ish in defense.
So, imo, I would say: it is 70% of playmaking, passing, creating and attacking vs 30% defending.
Rb: the same. Roberto is not bad because he can't defend. He is mostly bad because he offers zero in attack.
So, imo, it is again 70:30 or 60:40 for attacking, creating, linking up vs defending.

About Rakitic, he turned 29 and lately we can see that his legs aren't there as they used to be.
He could easily turn into Schweinsteiger rapidly in the next 12-18 Months.
Even if not, it is not as if Rakitic will be a starter for the next 5 years here.
So, Coutinho or attacking midfielders can be compared with Rakitic only short term, like in the next season.
In 12-18 Months, Rakitic will hardly be in this story as a starter.

Also, in the past, for example, in Deco-Xavi days, Deco was creating but also scoring a lot.
In 90s we also had midfielders who were scoring much more than current midfielders.

Look at Van Gaal's 343 for example:
http://www.worldfootball.net/report/champions-league-1998-1999-gruppe-d-manchester-united-fc-barcelona/

Goalkeeper: Hesp
Defense: Reiziger, Abelardo, Sergi
Midfield: Cdm Cocu, Wingers Figo and Zenden, midfielder Lucho
Attack: Rivaldo, Sony Anderson, Giovanni

That's 7 players who can score a goal.
Figo was scoring a lot. 30 La liga goals in 5 seasons. 6 goals per season.
Lucho was scoring like crazy both as an attacker and midfielder.
Cocu was scoring a lot. 31 La liga league goals in 6 seasons, 5 per season.

Today, we have MSN who can score.
And Rakitic scores from time.
Iniesta can't score goals. Busi is not scoring.
So, today we have Msn+Raki (or Rafinha sometimes).

Coutinho ALONE scored more league goals as a CAM for Liverpool than Iniesta+Rakitic+Busi together in the same time.
Coutinho has 27 goals in 127 league matches.
Busi has 2 in the last 123 league matches.
Iniesta has 7 goals in the last 133 league matches.
Rakitic has 17 goals in 91 league matches for Barca.

That is: Coutinho 127 matches=27 goals
Our 3 guys: 347 matches=26 goals

Ok, Raki would get 3-4-5 more goals in the next 30 matches (to equal Coutinho's 127 league matches), but you get the point.
Coutinho brings goals. And Barca was always abut goals and attacking (except in Pep's era where midfielders were creating and controlling mostly).

Also, about a defensive mess, if Coutinho is a new Iniesta, imo, he wouldn't bring more mess than Iniesta.
About a new Raki, we still have the current Raki. We will have Roberto in that position who is the same type of a hard-worker.
And who knows, maybe we'll buy a new hardworking Cm till then.

So, I don't see Coutinho as the new Raki, but as a new Iniesta.
Or, more accurate, a new Deco. a type of a goalscoring attacking midfielder.

Also, imagine Coutinho with MSN at Camp Nou against Leganes and similar, when we have 15-20 shots on goal per match.
His team (Barca) will have much more possession, passes and shots than Liverpool.
Which means more shooting chances for Coutinho.
If 2-3 players are marking Messi, then Suarez will have an easy way to shoot.
If opponents will mark both Messi and Suarez, then Neymar and Coutinho will be free.
If 2 guys will man mark Neymar, Coutinho will be free.
You can't mark both MSN+Coutinho around the box. You will need 15 defenders for that

You gave plenty of unnecessary details.

I was talking about rakitic-coutinho swap which I bleed braugrana proposed.
That means a midgety midfield of iniesta busi n coutinho behind a MSN which cant defend

 

[BBZ8800]

You gave plenty of unnecessary details.

I was talking about rakitic-coutinho swap which I bleed braugrana proposed.
That means a midgety midfield of iniesta busi n coutinho behind a MSN which cant defend

We aren't playing 433 currently.
So, even with a Coutinho-Rakitic swap, we would play Busi-Coutinho-xx-Roberto in 343.

In a 433, a sane person surely wouldn't play Iniesta-Coutinho in this moment.
About Iniesta, he is nearing a phase like Xavi in last seasons, when he was used here and there when he is fresh and rested.
He won't be a starter for too long.

 

[Gaudi]

I don't think Mahrez is anywhere near the level of other two. Mahrez would be Arda 2.0 in my opinion.

 

[gasgas]

We aren't playing 433 currently.
So, even with a Coutinho-Rakitic swap, we would play Busi-Coutinho-xx-Roberto in 343.

In a 433, a sane person surely wouldn't play Iniesta-Coutinho in this moment.
About Iniesta, he is nearing a phase like Xavi in last seasons, when he was used here and there when he is fresh and rested.
He won't be a starter for too long.

Personally I wouldn't mind a


.................... . . . .. . . .. .ter stegen
. Mascherano....... . . . . . . .pique. .. .. . . . . . Umtiti
Vidal........Busquets...Roberto..........Coutinho
..........................Messi..............Neymar.....................
..................................... Suarez

I think Vidal is perfect for that role

Line up, but are we really going to maintain 343?




...

 

[khaled_a_d]

You gave plenty of unnecessary details.

I was talking about rakitic-coutinho swap which I bleed braugrana proposed.
That means a midgety midfield of iniesta busi n coutinho behind a MSN which cant defend

But you are interested in Verratti who if came with 4-3-3 will likely replace Rakitic in the line up, As Messi is no more RW and will be AM for the foreseeable future
Verratti is 1.65M,Coutinho is 1.71M. over 2 inches difference in height.

 

[BarçaBarça]

So, I don't see Coutinho as the new Raki, but as a new Iniesta.
Or, more accurate, a new Deco. a type of a goalscoring attacking midfielder.

Also, imagine Coutinho with MSN at Camp Nou against Leganes and similar, when we have 15-20 shots on goal per match.
His team (Barca) will have much more possession, passes and shots than Liverpool.
Which means more shooting chances for Coutinho.
If 2-3 players are marking Messi, then Suarez will have an easy way to shoot.
If opponents will mark both Messi and Suarez, then Neymar and Coutinho will be free.
If 2 guys will man mark Neymar, Coutinho will be free.
You can't mark both MSN+Coutinho around the box. You will need 15 defenders for that

But still: We don't face Leganes in the league every week. We don't need players who improves us against weaker teams, but players who strengthen us against good and top class teams. To me it sounds like a suicide mission to target a goal-scoring AM, if we still want to play MSN in some form.. It would be better to get someone who could assist/help MSN more, so when can utilize their abilities even more, by setting them up and take part in their interplay. We don't need one more with superb finishing-skills, at least not if that overshadows some other abilities.

Imo we need someone with top notch technique, vision and passing skills more than high speed dribbling and golazos. That said, I was quite pleased to see that Coutinho doesn't score that often (that has to mean that all the hype isn't around the goals solely), and that he has a quite all right assist-ratio.

What's bad about Coutinho is his price and that his profile is a little too attacking, and not controlling enough for my liking. What is great about him is that he could be better among better players (like the NT), which could get him to new heights, while his decisiveness and coolness he has got from being the go-to-guy when Liverpool needed to turn things around is always great for a team like Barcas - you can never get enough players with that ability/mentality.

 

[BBZ8800]

But still: We don't face Leganes in the league every week. We don't need players who improves us against weaker teams, but players who strengthen us against good and top class teams. To me it sounds like a suicide mission to target a goal-scoring AM, if we still want to play MSN in some form.. It would be better to get someone who could assist/help MSN more, so when can utilize their abilities even more, by setting them up and take part in their interplay. We don't need one more with superb finishing-skills, at least not if that overshadows some other abilities.

Well, there are lots of scenarios (for the beginning) about how should we play in the future.
I personally think that 433 is "dead" and that it worked mostly while we had young Xavi-Iniesta-Messi or prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi.
2 out 3 are gone or almost gone and Messi is running less and less in each new season (as a Rw).
Also, opponents have evolved and they have learned perfect tricks over years how to neutralize 433 better than in 2006, 2009 or 2011.
So, with Messi at a Rw, I am not sure that even a Verratti-Modric-Busquets trio would be good enough in a current era so that we wouldn't end as overran against big teams, like we are lately.

So, if we'll play 433, I think that nothing can "save us". Verratti, Modric, Xavi's son. No one.

If we'll move on to 343, 442 or something else, well it is a completely different story.

So, imo, if we'll play 433, we don't need Coutinho. But we will fail either way then with 433.
If we'll play 442 or 343, we could then use 10s of different players compared to today for those systems.

About Coutinho, remember 2006.
We had Ronaldinho-Etoo-young Messi, which isn't too different from MSN.
Behind them we had injured Xavi, playmaker Deco, Van Bommel (workhorse), and Cdm Edmilson.

Deco isn't too much different than Coutinho (imo). He was also quite an attacking player who was a 2nd creator (Ronaldinho was the main brain of a team) and Deco was also scoring a lot from midfield.

Also, young Iniesta started as an attacking midfielder and a winger in 433 (playing on both wings, mostly as a LW).
Over years, that attacking midfielder-winger Iniesta turned into a classical Barca's Cm.

Current Coutinho is equally as attacking as young Iniesta was in his age.
Also, Rakitic was a striker and Cam in early years, and here he is a defensive-minded workhorse currently.

I know that a lot of people don't like when we change positions to players (because it often doesn't work well), but player's positions are not set in stone.

So, there are 100s of possibilities.
We don't know which formation will we play.
Further, Coutinho isn't that much different than Deco or young Iniesta, Cams which has led us to a CL glory and which turned our club into a current Barca.
So, I am not calling for an all-out-attack formation with 5-6 attackers.
But imo, Coutinho is a midfielder with whom we wouldn't lose too much balance and who can offer way more in attack than our current midfielders.

 

[gasgas]

But you are interested in Verratti who if came with 4-3-3 will likely replace Rakitic in the line up, As Messi is no more RW and will be AM for the foreseeable future
Verratti is 1.65M,Coutinho is 1.71M. over 2 inches difference in height.

Yes I am interested in Verratti, but khaled,
where on earth did i say he will be replacing Rakitic?

I frequently post lineups in the transfer thread and i never line up a midgety midfield, which can't defendanything behind MSN

Okay, even then in all competitions

Verratti
3.3 tackles per game
0.1 aerial duels per game
0.8 interceptions per game

Coutinho
1.2 tackles per game
0.2 aerial duels per game
0.2 interceptions per game


Not that i care about these that much because i love Verratti for more than just defence






Coutinho

 

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=20959]BarçaBarça[/MENTION]
One question: imagine 433 with Verratti-Rakitic-Busi

Imo, that's way too defensive.
Verratti is like Xavi and Rakitic is, well, not like Iniesta.

In Rijkaard's 433 we had an attacking midfielder Deco and Xavi/Van Bommel behind him.
With Pep, we again had an attacking guy in Iniesta.

If we buy Verratti and go back to 433, who will be an attacking guy?
Arda: no
Iniesta: can't run anymore and he will be finished soon
Roberto: a workhorse
Rakitic: a workhorse
Gomes: no comment
Denis: no comment
Rafinha: not good enough to be a starter and a main creator
Alena: he has years of developing infront of him

Not to mention that Messi as a RW in 433 will run less than in Pep's days.
We don't have Alves and whomever we buy, well, he won't be a new Alves.

I don't see how a 433 could work, even with Verratti and a new RB, with a current set of midfielders and current Messi.

Yes I am interested in Verratti, but khaled,
where on earth did i say he will be replacing Rakitic?

The same question.
If you can buy Verratti and if we'll play 433, tell me our lineup in 2018.
In 2017, we will have to play with old Iniesta.
What after that? Busi-Verratti and who is a 3rd guy, a creator?

 

[Sneer]

Yes I am interested in Verratti, but khaled,
where on earth did i say he will be replacing Rakitic?

I frequently post lineups in the transfer thread and i never line up a midgety midfield, which can't defendanything behind MSN

Okay, even then in all competitions

Verratti
3.3 tackles per game
0.1 aerial duels per game
0.8 interceptions per game

Coutinho
1.2 tackles per game
0.2 aerial duels per game
0.2 interceptions per game


Not that i care about these that much because i love Verratti for more than just defence






Coutinho

Talking about midgets
Veratti
Born: 5 November 1992 (age 24 years), Pescara, Italy
Height: 1.65 m

Coutinho
Born: 12 June 1992 (age 24 years), Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Verrati is clearly shorter than Coutinho is
Height: 1.71 m

 

[gasgas]

[MENTION=20959]BarçaBarça[/MENTION]
One question: imagine 433 with Verratti-Rakitic-Busi

Imo, that's way too defensive.
Verratti is like Xavi and Rakitic is, well, not like Iniesta.

In Rijkaard's 433 we had an attacking midfielder Deco and Xavi/Van Bommel behind him.
With Pep, we again had an attacking guy in Iniesta.

If we buy Verratti and go back to 433, who will be an attacking guy?
Arda: no
Iniesta: can't run anymore and he will be finished soon
Roberto: a workhorse
Rakitic: a workhorse
Gomes: no comment
Denis: no comment
Rafinha: not good enough to be a starter and a main creator
Alena: he has years of developing infront of him

Not to mention that Messi as a RW in 433 will run less than in Pep's days.
We don't have Alves and whomever we buy, well, he won't be a new Alves.

I don't see how a 433 could work, even with Verratti and a new RB, with a current set of midfielders and current Messi.



The same question.
If you can buy Verratti and if we'll play 433, tell me our lineup in 2018.
In 2017, we will have to play with old Iniesta.
What after that? Busi-Verratti and who is a 3rd guy, a creator?

depends with the formation really

In my formations, there is no old iniesta in 2017/18 as a starter

So let's get that out of the way first

 

[BarçaBarça]

[MENTION=20959]BarçaBarça[/MENTION]
One question: imagine 433 with Verratti-Rakitic-Busi

Imo, that's way too defensive.
Verratti is like Xavi and Rakitic is, well, not like Iniesta.


I don't see how a 433 could work, even with Verratti and a new RB, with a current set of midfielders and current Messi.

Well, I don't have the answers for the perfect formation, but to me it is clear that 433 wasn't working because of the midfield, and that 3-4-3 is not a god-given solution to the problem either.

I would like a player as close to Iniesta as possible, no need for a goalscoring AM, as I see it. We have 3 goalproducing monsters - that is quite a difference from the Pep-era. MSN breaks goal-records when they want - so it is more about utilizing that potential, than adding another finishing-expert. Scoring goals is also sometimes a zerosum-game - you can't score 10 goals just because we started with MSN + Griezmann + Lewandowski, and therefore we need to assist/make MSN work better rather than add more scoring superstars.

A Verratti-Rakitic-Busi-midfield would not be my dream, no - only if Messi started running at RW, which he most likely won't. I think many underestimates the drain that MSN puts on the team - already by playing those three we are huuuuuuugely unbalanced towards attack. And the new 3-4-3 just allows every fanboy to squeeze in the latest hot-shot overhyped attacking player and shit on the balance and defensive structure on the team, when they do their 2017/18-lineups.

Look, if we were able to get Verratti, everything else would settle itself, maybe Messi could play AM in front of him and Busquets?
But we are not going to get him, and when 3-4-3 doesn't work, 4-3-3 didn't work, we need to do something different. Find the best spot for Messi is first priority, but no matter what I don't think it is goals we should be looking for in the next midfield-target. A player with better passing/vision than golazos would be my pick.

 

[BBZ8800]

Look, if we were able to get Verratti, everything else would settle itself, maybe Messi could play AM in front of him and Busquets?
But we are not going to get him, and when 3-4-3 doesn't work, 4-3-3 didn't work, we need to do something different. Find the best spot for Messi is first priority, but no matter what I don't think it is goals we should be looking for in the next midfield-target. A player with better passing/vision than golazos would be my pick.

Any 433 (imo) with Messi as a part of a midfield trio is more horrible than Iniesta-Coutinho midfield duo.

433 is dead.
433 with Messi as a midfielder. Well, that is a horror show imo.

433 could work with Busi+Verratti+someone but with an awesome RB and with 2 youngsters at wings (Neymar and a young Rw guy). That means no Messi.
Messi is one of the reasons why we can't play 433 anymore.
Midfield is also one of the reasons.
RB is also one of the reasons.
Opponents figured us out is also one of the reasons.
All players way older than in Rijkaard's or Pep's days is also one of the reasons.

We can't buy 1 or 2 players (Verratti and a RB) and suddenly expect that 433 will work after 12 Months of an insane misery.

 

[gasgas]

Talking about midgets
Veratti
Born: 5 November 1992 (age 24 years), Pescara, Italy
Height: 1.65 m

Coutinho
Born: 12 June 1992 (age 24 years), Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Verrati is clearly shorter than Coutinho is
Height: 1.71 m

Out of the two midgets, one can really defend though
3 tackles per game

 

[BarçaBarça]

Any 433 (imo) with Messi as a part of a midfield trio is more horrible than Iniesta-Coutinho midfield duo.

433 is dead.
433 with Messi as a midfielder. Well, that is a horror show imo.

We can't buy 1 or 2 players (Verratti and a RB) and suddenly expect that 433 will work after 12 Months of an insane misery.

Well, I agree. Maybe a diamond 4-4-2 would be better with Neymar and Suarez up front, and Messi as AM. That way we could still utilize the fullbacks (who would storm up and down the flank), and get better use of Messi - and crucially don't sell out the defence. Busi-Rakitic-Silva with Messi in front of them might work (Iniesta should play as often as possible, imo).

But the solution is not to go for a goalscoring AM or an attacking RW and move Messi in midfield in the 4-3-3, that is clear to me.