Ernesto Valverde - V1

[MagIX]

I agree with bbz8800.
Suarez is a striker and he MUST play as a striker, no as winger. 4-4-3 means that Dembele and Messi are wingers and means that the wingers have run up and down like horses to cover and help the midfield, like every team that use the 4-3-3. Not possible for us.
Honestly, our midfield is too weak, we can't allow us to play a 4-3-3. The 4-4-2 helped very much our midfield (and defense), we do not have the right players for a midfield with 3 players, we would be too uncovered and goodbye to the very few goals we conceded.
For me Valverde is doing the best with the material he has, and honestly again, we do not have enough quality. He is trying to compensate our lack of quality.

 

[BBZ8800]

And if u emphasize so much on squad quality and our ageing midfield, regardless is it 442 or 433, aren't u directly implying that we will never win shit bcos they are ageing and we have a shit midfield? We dont have fast midfielders to support a 442 midfield as well, in so many games, we only managed to show we restored some defensive shape. Our attack look absolutely lacklustre with only Messi trying to initiate attacks. Even if u use 442, it will still be exposed bcos of the poor midfield that u keep mentioning. Just that Busquets and Iniesta will be EVEN more compromised than in a 433. U are not utilising them fully. Regardless of age, their creativity has still been immense and are still the biggest influences till today and alot of them has to do with form and morale as well. And a Messi in absolutely blistering form this season, and all we gave him is a fat Suarez and Rakitic to support him?

We all see what he could do against Juventus as a false nine in a 433, so what's there to complain abt the past and what not. It's about recognising the best players u have right now and the positions and systems they are most comfortable in.

I don't think that we will suck equally with 433 and 442 with a current squad.
I think that we'll suck insanely with 433 in a CL against bigger teams and that we have like 0,1% chances to win a CL with 433 with current players.

On the other hand, even this poor team have, imo, let's say 20% chances to win a CL with 442.
How?
Some luck, good defense, some Messi's magic and it is possible to win it in Chelsea/Italian style with 1:0, 1:1 and 2:1 aggregate scores.

With 433, we are dead in 1/8 against Chelsea or any team with Iniesta-Rakitic (or Roberto, lol)-Busi trio.

About Roberto, I think that we discussed whether he should get more chances as a CM yesterday in Rakitic's thread.
I don't want to write same thing over and over.
You can go there and quote me there.

In short, only Barcaforum's fans still have illusions that Sergi Roberto is a savior or a player who can actually play as a starter for a top team.
He is a likeable, passionate, good domestic guy.
As a footballer, he is a squad player who will be 26 in 60 days.

That is a prime for most footballers.
People here don't want Griezmann or others who are aged 26 or 27.
And then, some of you would test a 26 year old guy for our CM position (in that age), after not playing there for almost 2-3 years. I hope that you get my point. Roberto's ship as a starter has sailed long time ago (both because of his skills and circumstances around his career and positions which he had to play).

 

[Joan]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] How would you lineup with Dembele fit? What formation would you adopt?

 

[LeeRomeno]

In short, only Barcaforum's fans still have illusions that Sergi Roberto is a savior or a player who can actually play as a starter for a top team.
He is a likeable, passionate, good domestic guy.
As a footballer, he is a squad player who will be 26 in 60 days.

Its the "barcaforum" phenomenon. General consensus for a few unreasonable and unproven facts, that for some odd reason is the popular (read: promoted by the loudest and most active posters) choice here and if anyone disagrees, they are bullies and trolls:
*Rakitic is shit and should be sold
*Suarez is finished and should be benched and sold
*Semedo has to start every game no matter how bad he plays, because coach destroyed his confidence or whatever bs excuse there is
*S.Roberto is our savior in the middle
*Valverde is fraud, if only we would have a good coach, we would soon destroy every team out there with comfortable 5-0 wins

 

[JamDav1982]

Its the "barcaforum" phenomenon. General consensus for a few unreasonable and unproven facts, that for some odd reason is the popular (read: promoted by the loudest and most active posters) choice here and if anyone disagrees, they are bullies and trolls:
*Rakitic is shit and should be sold
*Suarez is finished and should be benched and sold
*Semedo has to start every game no matter how bad he plays, because coach destroyed his confidence or whatever bs excuse there is
*S.Roberto is our savior in the middle
*Valverde is fraud, if only we would have a good coach, we would soon destroy every team out there with comfortable 5-0 wins

* The B team manager is shit. Always shit and clueless and doesnt build players..... but there are 3/4 players in B team that should be in first team.

 

[BBZ8800]

How would you lineup with Dembele fit? What formation would you adopt?

Either 442 Diamond with:
Suarez - Dembele
------ Messi ---------

Or some asymetrical 442/451 like:
-------- Suarez -------------
--------- Messi --- Dembele
- Iniesta ---- Rakitic -------
-------- Busquets ----------
Alba ------------------------
----- Umtiti - Pique - Semedo

Alba will play as a very attacking left fullback/left wingback/left winger/left attacker at times.
Suarez will be our target man, and the only guy who can actually score goals (besides Messi).
Messi and Dembele should be two creators, close to eachother.
Iniesta should take charge of a left side creation.
Rakitic and Busi are here mostly to defend and pass to more attacking players.
As said, Alba on a left will play all positions, since we don't have anyone on that side in 442.
Semedo will be less attacking than Alba, but still he could add some nice things paired with Dembele (and Messi at central-right position) on the right flank.
** There is a chance that Dembele will play on a left, if he will "feel" better there.

In this formation, we are still keeping all best players in a lineup (Messi, Dembele, Iniesta, Luis).
We are keeping at least 2 experienced scorers (Luis and Messi).
NO ONE is playing out of his position.
On the other hand, in 433, either Luis has to play as a winger, which sucks. Or Luis will get benched.
Or Messi needs to play as a RW, which won't happen.

Imo, 442 semi-Diamond or 41221 with Messi and Dembele as Cam and Cam/Rw are keeping all stars in a lineup, all players are in their best positions and we are still keeping EV's midfield and defensive balance, like till now.

 

[FCBfan22]

I think Valverde will use the 2nd lineup you posted. Maybe Suarez will step just a bit to the left playing as a left striker and Messi as a CAM/false 9 hibrid.

Something like that:
------Suarez------------------
------------Messi----Dembele
-----Iniesta------Rakitic-----
---------Busquets------------
Alba---------------------------
------Umtiti - Pique - Semedo

 

[MessiCam]

Either 442 Diamond with:
Suarez - Dembele
------ Messi ---------

Or some asymetrical 442/451 like:
-------- Suarez -------------
--------- Messi --- Dembele
- Iniesta ---- Rakitic -------
-------- Busquets ----------
Alba ------------------------
----- Umtiti - Pique - Semedo

Alba will play as a very attacking left fullback/left wingback/left winger/left attacker at times.
Suarez will be our target man, and the only guy who can actually score goals (besides Messi).
Messi and Dembele should be two creators, close to eachother.
Iniesta should take charge of a left side creation.
Rakitic and Busi are here mostly to defend and pass to more attacking players.
As said, Alba on a left will play all positions, since we don't have anyone on that side in 442.
Semedo will be less attacking than Alba, but still he could add some nice things paired with Dembele (and Messi at central-right position) on the right flank.
** There is a chance that Dembele will play on a left, if he will "feel" better there.

In this formation, we are still keeping all best players in a lineup (Messi, Dembele, Iniesta, Luis).
We are keeping at least 2 experienced scorers (Luis and Messi).
NO ONE is playing out of his position.
On the other hand, in 433, either Luis has to play as a winger, which sucks. Or Luis will get benched.
Or Messi needs to play as a RW, which won't happen.

Imo, 442 semi-Diamond or 41221 with Messi and Dembele as Cam and Cam/Rw are keeping all stars in a lineup, all players are in their best positions and we are still keeping EV's midfield and defensive balance, like till now.

In your previous posts you point out that we stand stand no chance with a 4-3-3 due to the state of the midfield (you even gave arbitrary odds) but has it dawned on you yet that a 4-4-2 Diamond is basically a 4-3-3 False 9 without wings. The midfield is the exact same as a 4-3-3 it’s just that your illustration has Suárez and Dembélé as strikers instead of wings. The latter is weird because you say he’s not a scorer...

Further, Suárez doesn’t have to play as wing in a 4-3-3 False 9... He can play as an inside forward by predominantly picking positions on the left side of the box.

You could have made your argument with a flat 4-4-2. Weird you chose a diamond.

 

[henias]

Its the "barcaforum" phenomenon. General consensus for a few unreasonable and unproven facts, that for some odd reason is the popular (read: promoted by the loudest and most active posters) choice here and if anyone disagrees, they are bullies and trolls:
*Rakitic is shit and should be sold
*Suarez is finished and should be benched and sold
*Semedo has to start every game no matter how bad he plays, because coach destroyed his confidence or whatever bs excuse there is
*S.Roberto is our savior in the middle
*Valverde is fraud, if only we would have a good coach, we would soon destroy every team out there with comfortable 5-0 wins

LeeRomeno: Anything that has the general consensus agreeing with it is considered stupid, wrong and senseless. Similarly, using your own logic and twisted perspective, I can always say there's always a few guys in Barcaforum who tries so hard to stand out as a minority and be unorthodox, giving completely opposite opinions to try to look like the "smarter" ones.

Once again, nobody is calling anyone bullies or trolls, it has always been part of your delusion and your obsession with making the users look bad.

In fact, people evaluating postively or negatively on Valverde is generally a 50/50, that's if u even bothered to read the posts. There are plenty people defending Valverde.

Before always playing the hero and your usual, "It's just the Barcaforum sydrome", people have been questioning Valverde on the other platforms as well. So why dont u shame them too?

Yeah, lets lie to ourselves and claim we are utilising our squad to the fullest and and that we are NEVER one bit struggling against Celta and Villareal before the red card. Clearly, there were certain flaws that people like to ignore just because they draw or win the games, and people like to think these major flaws will never surface in big games. It will. It's just a matter of time before someone exploits it again.

If u are so bent on disagreeing, why not give ur own views and whatever that can support your claim, instead of constantly shaming the users and just literally give a few idiotic assumptions and a terrible summary of what the users "said". Ironically, I'm pretty sure you are the only bully here if u notice, trying to shame against a group of people for having different views, yet the people u mentioned havent done anything like that. So maybe stop wasting ur time, if u want to join the discussion go ahead, if not, dont just summarise the vaguest BS like "Users think Semedo should start every game and Roberto is a saviour bs". "Valverde is a fraud, we can beat any teams 5-0 if we have a good coach." Literally no one said that. Lol. Get a grip and give me a goddamn break, will you?

 

[Birdy]

So, no matter how you turn it around:
Barca's 433 from 2017/18 is miles behind of Barca's 433 from 2009-2011. Plus, even worse, teams know how to neutralize us, unlike then.
Even worse, Barca's 433 from 2017/18 is miles behind Real's 433 from 2017/18, because:
1. Real has a better midfield
2. Real has faster, stronger and more technical midfielders
3. Real has a better attack and more versatile attack
4. Real's team is younger than ours
So, even if all would click perfectly in our 433 in 2017/18, that system would be only a shadow of a 433 from golden days.

I agree with many of the points you are raising.
However i don't agree about Busquets. He is a better player i think than back then(and if someone disagrees at least he has to concede that he hasn't become worse), but the team cannot support him anymore.
The thing is that possession-based 4-3-3 is not dead at all. Madrid won last year (bcz in 2016 it was only luck) for mainly no1 of the reasons you list
they played diamond 4-4-2 with Casermiro - Modric Kroos - Isco and that was the FUDAMENTAL factor that made them so efficient. Not their strength or speed, but their technical ability and intelligence to move the ball under sustained pressure.
There were other factors: excellent full backs (Marcelo, Carvahal) they have Ronaldo, who is deadly in crosses etc etc
But even Ronaldo would have been nullified if their Md was not dominating every game they played. Only vs Bayern there was a question mark, in all other games they gave in the second half last season their Md completely overrun the opponent.
The midfield is the essence of modern football, and how it can control the game. All the other are important but secondary factors. Or to put it in other words, without a dominant md you lack a necessary condition of winning against big opponents.

Our problem is the lack of quality in Md. Does this mean that Messi should not play as False 9? I really don't see the inference.
The only reason that Messi should not play as false 9 is if the CF is providing sth else, sth better, which as far as i can see Suarez is definitely not providing.
On the contrary, 4-3-3 allows one more CM that can cover the lack of quality of our md right now..
the 4-4-2 with rakitic iniesta ending up playing as RM and LM respectively is odd for the players and for the build up.
Is it better defensively though as you say?
I think no as well. Neither one is good at tracking back all the way. We became better defensively after the switch to 4-4-2 but for other reasons i think. It seems that we became more cagey in going upfront, maybe bcz of explicit instructions by EV, maybe bcz of lack of confidence.
When we tried to play more open and daringly, we ended up failing (Celta), whereas we were succeeding with 4-3-3 false 9 Messi versus teams of same calibre earlier in the season with the same approach..
I don't think we can win the title if we keep playing so cagey in LaLiga. Maybe given the lack of quality right now it will be good Vs Chelsea or anyone else next if we go through, or Vs Madrid or specific difficult games (Valencia) but the vast bulk of the games we still have to give for LaLiga and Copa are vs Celta and teams like Celta.
And let's be honest. The only goal this year is LaLiga and it will be a big success to win it with this squad!

 

[jairzinho]

The main issue for EV is finding a shape/system that can provide balance at both ends of the pitch.

A seconday issue that arises with the shape is the positioning of Messi and his defensive duties.

Depending on his position, a lack of defensive input from him can cause the team to become unbalanced when we don't have the ball.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Either 442 Diamond with:
Suarez - Dembele
------ Messi ---------

Or some asymetrical 442/451 like:
-------- Suarez -------------
--------- Messi --- Dembele
- Iniesta ---- Rakitic -------
-------- Busquets ----------
Alba ------------------------
----- Umtiti - Pique - Semedo

Both are more or less 433 and its derivatives

 

[Neymessi]

Its the "barcaforum" phenomenon. General consensus for a few unreasonable and unproven facts, that for some odd reason is the popular (read: promoted by the loudest and most active posters) choice here and if anyone disagrees, they are bullies and trolls:
*Rakitic is shit and should be sold
*Suarez is finished and should be benched and sold
*Semedo has to start every game no matter how bad he plays, because coach destroyed his confidence or whatever bs excuse there is
*S.Roberto is our savior in the middle
*Valverde is fraud, if only we would have a good coach, we would soon destroy every team out there with comfortable 5-0 wins

You are not gonna stop with this shit anytime soon are you?

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

Once Dembele comes back Messi needs to move to the RW. I cannot see this team as it is currently constructed doing anything with Suarez playing as a LW. This is assuming we go back to the 4-3-3, if we stick to the 4-4-2 there is no point even discussing our odds in the CL. Suarez is more useless on the ball than ever before, we need to move him back centrally to play as the lone striker to minimize this effect at least until the end of this season.

Messi doesn't need to hug the touchline like a conventional RW would, but he needs to start out on the right, drag defenders towards him and gradually move more centrally as plays progress. To make this system work we need a workhorse at the RM position that could cover for Messi on the right flank as he drifts inwards. In 14/15 Rakitic was perfect for this role as he had one of the highest workrates on the team and covered tons of ground, and while the Rakitic of today still covers a lot of the pitch he doesn't have the pace anymore to offer any sort of tactically fluidity. For this role Roberto or maybe even Paulinho would be better choices.

Also please spare me the drivel about the 4-4-2 being great defensively, over the last few weeks as we've faced better teams we've been getting exposed on the counter attack repeatedly and are lucky we came away with anything in the Villarreal match. Whenever we lose the ball in midfield we've got our fullbacks pushed up so high and out of position, 3 slow midfielders that struggle to get back and of course Messi and Suarez up top who don't even bother to try tracking back. This leaves Busquets, Pique and Umtiti/Verm isolated in defense and allows other teams to pull them apart to create clear goalscoring chances. Watch some of the highlights of our last few matches, this has become a recurrent trend.

 

[Ghostmaster]

Once Dembele comes back Messi needs to move to the RW. I cannot see this team as it is currently constructed doing anything with Suarez playing as a LW. This is assuming we go back to the 4-3-3, if we stick to the 4-4-2 there is no point even discussing our odds in the CL. Suarez is more useless on the ball than ever before, we need to move him back centrally to play as the lone striker to minimize this effect at least until the end of this season.

Messi doesn't need to hug the touchline like a conventional RW would, but he needs to start out on the right, drag defenders towards him and gradually move more centrally as plays progress. To make this system work we need a workhorse at the RM position that could cover for Messi on the right flank as he drifts inwards. In 14/15 Rakitic was perfect for this role as he had one of the highest workrates on the team and covered tons of ground, and while the Rakitic of today still covers a lot of the pitch he doesn't have the pace anymore to offer any sort of tactically fluidity. For this role Roberto or maybe even Paulinho would be better choices.

Also please spare me the drivel about the 4-4-2 being great defensively, over the last few weeks as we've faced better teams we've been getting exposed on the counter attack repeatedly and are lucky we came away with anything in the Villarreal match. Whenever we lose the ball in midfield we've got our fullbacks pushed up so high and out of position, 3 slow midfielders that struggle to get back and of course Messi and Suarez up top who don't even bother to try tracking back. This leaves Busquets, Pique and Umtiti/Verm isolated in defense and allows other teams to pull them apart to create clear goalscoring chances. Watch some of the highlights of our last few matches, this has become a recurrent trend.

You can't completely prevent counters when playing possession football with high line, it doesn't matter what formations you use. Look at Pep's Bayern or last years City, his team gets killed on counters every time they face decent opponent in CL and nothing has helped so far. Having players like prime Mascherano and prime Alves would help of course because they were putting out fires with their tackling before it reached a GK, but players like that are rare, almost impossible to replace.