JamDav1982
Senior Member
Messi wont defend and cant play the way Silva plays. He wants to go for throat of defence whenever he gets it.
xXKonan
Senior Member
Yeah I doubt we will see Messi chained to the wing every again and Valverde knows this.
We played Messi as a False 9 this season early on and he did well. and Valverde even said that he wants Messi to be in the Middle so that's why he stuck him at the False 9 early on and Suarez as a Left Forward with Alba making up for Suarez's deficiencies on the LW and Dembele playing as a RW.
But Dembele got injured, Deulo and the other options we have weren't reliable as time went on so we are using a 4-4-2 with Messi up top with Suarez. I think we might see the return of the 4-3-3 with Messi as a false 9 again when Dembele is ready.
We played Messi as a False 9 this season early on and he did well. and Valverde even said that he wants Messi to be in the Middle so that's why he stuck him at the False 9 early on and Suarez as a Left Forward with Alba making up for Suarez's deficiencies on the LW and Dembele playing as a RW.
But Dembele got injured, Deulo and the other options we have weren't reliable as time went on so we are using a 4-4-2 with Messi up top with Suarez. I think we might see the return of the 4-3-3 with Messi as a false 9 again when Dembele is ready.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
You guys need to give up on the idea of Messi turning into RW, ship has sailed since early 2016.
The best thing EV has done so far that he accepted this and made the changes according to it
The best thing EV has done so far that he accepted this and made the changes according to it
Birdy
Senior Member
You have to understand we are defending in the best case with 9/10 players, because Messi is not defending.
What do you do with a player like this even if he is the best in the world with the ball on his feet? You have to stick him upfront at least during defense phase, because opposition's CBs are in theory the weakest attackers and can cause less harm than anyone else.
The problems start when you need to accommodate both that situation and Suarez' situation as well..
What do you do with a player like this even if he is the best in the world with the ball on his feet? You have to stick him upfront at least during defense phase, because opposition's CBs are in theory the weakest attackers and can cause less harm than anyone else.
The problems start when you need to accommodate both that situation and Suarez' situation as well..
M
MessiCam
Guest
It's an easy problem to fix but one that Valverde doesn't have the balls to do... He would instead play Iniesta and Rakitic as CM/Wing hybrids.
It's fucking crazy.
M
MessiCam
Guest
This won't work... Only 2 central midfielders which will probably end up being Busquets and Rakitic/Paulinho. Neither with any sort of pace whatsoever, neither a deep lying playmaker and an old Iniesta on the left wing... We'll get murdered on the counter attack all day and seven times on a Sunday.
4-2-3-1 brings more problems than it solves. The only way this side finds balance is when either Messi or Suarez are dropped.
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henias
New member
He favours Suarez so much bcos he is part of the renowned MSN and he's scared of public backlash if he drops him. Without Neymar, he tries to build a team around Messi and Suarez but doesnt provide them with fast midfield hybrids.
I dont know, he just couldnt break away from the few famous names just bcos they were once very successful. He doesnt give a shit about their form either. He just either tactically inept or just plain scared.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
The way I see it:
1. if we play beloved 433, then our midfield is a total crap against top teams (especially physical teams) and we are outrun easily, like 0:4 against Psg and 0:3 against Juventus last season
2. on the other hand, if we play 442, we will play 0:0, 1:0 or 0:1 against top teams (so, there is no way imo that we will get outplayed like little children), but then we suffer in attack and at a RW position
Neither option is perfect, but considering our rooster, I still see us more balanced with 442 against stronger teams than with 433.
On the other hand, we should try to play 433 against weaker La liga teams, especially at Nou Camp.
When people mention 433, Messi at false 9 and similar, I have a feeling that you have forgotten how horrible we played with 433 in the last 2 years.
And NO, it was not because of Lucho.
It was because the opponents learned how to neutralize our version of 433, and because our players are way worse than guys whom we had when 433 actually worked.
Imagine our current 433:
Iniesta, old, tired, semi turtle, physically horrible compared to guys from Juventus, Psg, Bayern etc
Rakitic, old, tired, a true turtle, average technically
Busquets, older, a turtle
= play this trio in a 433 against Psg or any big team and you'll get 0:3, 0:4 or 0:5 every time with our midfield and team getting outplayed like a bunch of 13 year olds.
Some people will have "magical" solutions: play 433 BUT with Roberto (lol).
Not a CM more or less, hasn't played there for years and whenever he played, he was just a squad level.
Play Denis? Another guy who will be eaten alive physically by Psg's or Bayern's guys.
Paulinho? He possess some strength, but he is weaker in technical/possession area.
Arda? No comment.
Gomes? No comment.
Rafinha? A squad level who is always injured.
Basically, there is no way to make a 433 currently and to create a midfield trio which will be able to run and press against big teams with younger, faster or physically stronger players.
Also, imagine any 433, and then Semedo as a RB.
And what, Messi-Suarez and who: Deulofeu or Denis in attack (considering that Dembele was injured).
Anyway, imagine a match against Real/Psg/Bayern/Juve with:
Deulofeu-Luis-Messi
Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi
Alba-Umtiti-Pique-Semedo
Deulofeu, Luis and Messi don't defend too much.
Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi are a trio of old turtles who will be outplayed and outrun by any big team.
And then, Pique-Semedo-Rakitic horror show at a right side in our defense.
I would put huuuge bets that we would lose majority of matches against big teams with 0:3, 0:4 and 1:4.
433 is a nice formation on paper.
But only if you have lots of younger players with high motivation and awesome skills, who can run, press and defend like crazy (Messi-Iniesta-Xavi or RM's current team).
If you don't have a top class team, then 433 is quite a problem and you are outplayed easily.
When you sum everything:
1. 433 sucks because our players are old, teams have figured it out, and Messi don't want to play as a RW
2. in 4231, we would probably play Busi-Rakitic as central midfielders. That doesn't sound promising
3. at the end of the day, when you really sum everything, EV's 442 with Messi who doesn't want to play as RW, with old and turtl-esque midfield and with injured Dembele, 442 was by far the best option.
442 has it's flaws though.
Some of you guys are whining about 433, but EV actually evolved.
He gave up from something which gave us only 1 CL title in the last 6 seasons.
433 was neutralized almost easily by Bayern, AM, AM, Psg, Juve.
More or less ANY physical-faster team.
Maybe some of you forgot how it looks like when we play with 433, with 3 turtles in midfield, against younger, faster and stronger players, plus with Messi at a RW, where opponents have "a free ride" down our flank.
Let's sit down and enjoy in a beauty of post-Pep's (post prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi) 433 with turtles and ageing players, against physical top teams (who usually play a more crowded midfield and thus totally dominates us in all aspects):
The thing is, when we had prime Messi-Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets, then Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets trio was as good as 4 or 5 opponent's midfielders.
So, our 3 wizzards weren't outplayed by 4-5 opponents.
Today, with granny Iniesta, turtle Rakitic and old Busquets, our 3 midfielders are just 3 players and nothing else.
And when the top opponents play with 4 or 5 midfielders, we are dead.
So, 433 from Pep's era is really not the same thing as 433 with Iniesta-Rakitic-Busquets (and please no, guys. Roberto or some other crazy solutions in midfield won't help).
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henias
New member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] You cant compare last season with this season. We lost against PSG because of, out of form players, RB issue, Gomes in midfield who is not a controlling midfielder, Enrique's lack of defensive shape (he just throw 5 men at the back and send 2 players to mark or press a player) which is complete disaster. Last but not least, Neymar tendency to run at defenders impatiently causing him to be disposessed early in the game and sending everybody in a mess when they try to win the ball back. It isn't a formation problem, many teams play 433.
Our midfield isnt total crap this year, we have Roberto back in mid and Semedo to establish himself as a RB. Valverde didnt do that. Iniesta is back in form.
You dont necessarily need to press so much in a 433. A 433 attack that transitions into a 442 zonal/men marking also works well.
The misconception that a 3 men midfield will get dominated by a 4-5 men midfield is wrong, The idea of 433 is to spread across the field and stretch the opponents and disrupt their formation. Playing tiki taka with a 442 without utilising the flanks will lead to congestion and easy disposession in the middle, with Messi dropping deep it will be worse. Opponent's defence are hardly stretched. These problems surfaced when we played against Celta and Valencia and we look like a mess at the front and back.
You mentioned having slow midfielders, but 442 with slow midfielders doesnt work as well. Increasing the quantity without quality is useless.
Right now, 433 still suits us the best due to the positional deadweights like Sergio Busquets and Iniesta and Lionel Messi. The only thing that needs to be rectify from the Lucho's era is the RB issue and the defensive tactics and the overly aggressive high pressing. Fatigue issues. We could play Arnaiz or Denis Suarez on the right if Deulofeu isnt good enough. We did well with a 433 against Sporting but Suarez was the one that dragged the team down with his slow transitions and missed sitters. This shows actually midfield isnt the only problem. The striker itself is a big question as well.
Our midfield isnt total crap this year, we have Roberto back in mid and Semedo to establish himself as a RB. Valverde didnt do that. Iniesta is back in form.
You dont necessarily need to press so much in a 433. A 433 attack that transitions into a 442 zonal/men marking also works well.
The misconception that a 3 men midfield will get dominated by a 4-5 men midfield is wrong, The idea of 433 is to spread across the field and stretch the opponents and disrupt their formation. Playing tiki taka with a 442 without utilising the flanks will lead to congestion and easy disposession in the middle, with Messi dropping deep it will be worse. Opponent's defence are hardly stretched. These problems surfaced when we played against Celta and Valencia and we look like a mess at the front and back.
You mentioned having slow midfielders, but 442 with slow midfielders doesnt work as well. Increasing the quantity without quality is useless.
Right now, 433 still suits us the best due to the positional deadweights like Sergio Busquets and Iniesta and Lionel Messi. The only thing that needs to be rectify from the Lucho's era is the RB issue and the defensive tactics and the overly aggressive high pressing. Fatigue issues. We could play Arnaiz or Denis Suarez on the right if Deulofeu isnt good enough. We did well with a 433 against Sporting but Suarez was the one that dragged the team down with his slow transitions and missed sitters. This shows actually midfield isnt the only problem. The striker itself is a big question as well.
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JamDav1982
Senior Member
This Barca mid would get fucked over going more riky possession based 4-3-3 against the top teams.
Anyone complaining about Barca defending in the break... it would only be worse.
Anyone complaining about Barca defending in the break... it would only be worse.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
That's a classical denial.
With that way, we can try to copy Pep's Barca for the next 100 years.
And we will always find an alibi and a scapegoat.
You say that last season's midfield was bad.
And what do we have now, lol?
Players who are even slower and 1 year older than now.
And "magical" solutions are Denis the Ghost, midtable level of a midfielder, and Sergi Roberto, the most overrated midfielder ever due to him being from La Masia, being a likeable guy, and involved in 3 emotional wins in the past (0:4 at Bernabeu, as a right midfielder in 442 lol, scoring a goal against Psg and a solo run against RM for 3:2). Isolated emotional events which have nothing to do with his CM's ability.
In short: Roberto is not a CM savior and isn't any better than other guys whom we have.
So, in terms of midfield, we are equally as horrible.
Or, even worse, since all key players are 1 year older.
Semedo, let's wait how that story will develop over time.
The idea of 433 worked 20-30 years ago, when majority of teams played 442.
Today, football evolved to 4231 and today teams know how to neutralize 433: with parking two buses around the box, wait for counters and leave the flanks open, since majority of 433 teams won't cross and they will play shortpasses around the box, where a smart opponent will neutralize them.
Barcelona and Spain were dominating:
1. until teams figured out how to neutralize 433 with 2 buses around the box and with leaving flanks open
2. until Xavi and Iniesta were in their prime
When point 1 and 2 changed, 433 started to fail over and over in the last 5-6 years, with some accidental, isolated flashes (Barca with MSN).
Real managed to win CLs with 433, but but but...
They evolved their 433 and changed it and their version is way different than Barca's outdated version of 433.
Real:
1. adopted crosses as a plan B, since all teams will park a bus around the box and leave the flanks open. Real Madrid took advantage of that, Barca can't. Because we have midgets and we are sticking with them.
2. Real upgraded their midfield into players who aren't only short and technical like Barca's players, but who are both: fast, somewhat strong and also technical
3. Real upgraded their attackers into players who are: fast, tall, strong, technical, can score BOTH with feet and head
In short: Barca's historical 433:
1. either isn't working anymore in 2017/18
2. or only upgraded versions of 433 work to some extent (Real).
Now, let's go back to our 433 in 2017/18:
You say, put Messi at a false 9. Lol, so we can't cross then. That means that we can only play possession and shortpasses and throughballs and hope for the best.
If an opponent parks 2 buses around their box, we are screwed. And we can't apply a plan B because all of our players are short and only know how to pass the ball around the box (which the opponents, better teams, will neutralize easily).
So, for the beginning, we can't have a plan B with Messi as a false 9.
I already see MessiCam yelling behind his screen: but it worked perfectly in 2009 or 2011!!
Well, yes, that was 10 years ago and Man Utd and teams played like idiots against us until Mourinho and others figured out (later) how to neutralize us (2 buses and leave the flanks open since nothing will happen on flanks since we can't cross).
So, if it worked then, it won't work today.
Not to mention that in 2009 and 2011 we had prime Xavi, Iniesta, Busi and Messi, while today we don't have Xavi anymore, and Messi-Iniesta-Busi are probably at 60-70% of what they used to be. Iniesta is even worse than 60% of his old self.
Let's move further: if you play Messi as a false 9, who will play wings? Dembele and who? Luis can't play there. Deulofeu, Denis and others suck.
So, compare current Messi-Dembele-Denis/Deulofeu with our attack from 2009 or 2011.
Or better not, because you'll get a headache.
Not only that current wingers are a kid for whom we don't know at all whether he will fit and succeed here (Dembele) and the other attacker is a midtable team level player Denis or Deulofeu. Sounds promising.
So:
1. our attack sucks
2. we are one dimensional since all of them can score only with feet, and we can't have a Plan B with crosses (upgraded version of 433, RM's style)
3. Denis/Deulo and Dembele suck hard in scoring. A team without Luis will depend heavily on Messi and no one will be able to score except him. Then again, if an opponent parks 2 buses and man mark Messi with 2-3 players, who will score. Denis/Deulo and Dembele? Good luck with that.
Midfield?
As explained, the same crap.
Spanish NT team started to suck as soon as Xavi and Iniesta finished their prime. So as Barca.
Again, which 3 guys will run, press and create as much as guys from 2009-2012?
So, no matter how you turn it around:
Barca's 433 from 2017/18 is miles behind of Barca's 433 from 2009-2011. Plus, even worse, teams know how to neutralize us, unlike then.
Even worse, Barca's 433 from 2017/18 is miles behind Real's 433 from 2017/18, because:
1. Real has a better midfield
2. Real has faster, stronger and more technical midfielders
3. Real has a better attack and more versatile attack
4. Real's team is younger than ours
So, even if all would click perfectly in our 433 in 2017/18, that system would be only a shadow of a 433 from golden days.
And do you want that? Just a poor copy of once a great system/formation?
Now, you'll probably ask: then what is your solution?
Well, we have a few options:
1. play 433, but Messi will need to play as a RW, because with him as a Cf or a false 9, our play is onedimensional.
Also, we would need to buy a lot of new, younger and better players for our 433. Coutinho, Griezmann, more Cms, defenders etc.
2. play 442 and try to improve it over time, which is Valverde doing, since Messi doesn't want to play as a RW, and our 3 man midfield currently sucks and we are outrun easily.
3. move to 4231 eventually, as majority of top teams.
In short: don't try to copy 433 from 2009. That shit won't work ever again.
Times have changed, football has evolved, our opponents have evolved. But we didn't. And majority of our fans didn't.
433 may work, but only in an evolved version with faster midfielders, with a stronger Cf who can score both with head and feet (unlike Messi) and our wingers would need to be able to score way more than Denis and Dembele.
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M
MessiCam
Guest
Why do you have to drag me into this? I’m not proposing a False 9 because it worked in the past... I’m proposing it because it gives the side better balance all round.
You talk about one dimensional play but fail to mention that the 4-4-2 is about as one dimensional as it gets. Wings give you options and open up spaces. Further crosses don’t have to be aerial...
You’re looking for crazy excuses as to why a 4-3-3 shouldn’t be played... And again, last year our midfield was overrun because Rakitic had to cover for RW Messi leaving only 1 central midfielder and a Defensive midfielder to cover the entire area.
If 2-3 players mark Messi. Dembele and another player will have Xmas every game... Further a 4-2-3-1 is not that different from a 4-3-3 in terms of dynamics... The only difference is there is an attacking midfielder instead of a central defensive midfielder. A False 9 can be used too...
I really can’t believe what I’m reading here... The best we’ve played all season, against Juventus was a 4-3-3 False 9 vs 4-2-3-1. It was also reverted to against Villarreal...
BBZ is drinking the Valverde cool aid a little too much.
You talk about one dimensional play but fail to mention that the 4-4-2 is about as one dimensional as it gets. Wings give you options and open up spaces. Further crosses don’t have to be aerial...
You’re looking for crazy excuses as to why a 4-3-3 shouldn’t be played... And again, last year our midfield was overrun because Rakitic had to cover for RW Messi leaving only 1 central midfielder and a Defensive midfielder to cover the entire area.
If 2-3 players mark Messi. Dembele and another player will have Xmas every game... Further a 4-2-3-1 is not that different from a 4-3-3 in terms of dynamics... The only difference is there is an attacking midfielder instead of a central defensive midfielder. A False 9 can be used too...
I really can’t believe what I’m reading here... The best we’ve played all season, against Juventus was a 4-3-3 False 9 vs 4-2-3-1. It was also reverted to against Villarreal...
BBZ is drinking the Valverde cool aid a little too much.
henias
New member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] You keep implying that I want to copy Pep's 433, no, that's never the case. Ironically, Tiki taka, which is the core for Pep's Barca is still being utilised, so in any case, you still have to accomodate that system unless u want to get rid of tiki taka, which is never going to happen.
Roberto was never tested properly in midfield, the last time he did was the 4-0 against Madrid. I already gave reasons for having a 443, due to some deadweights like Sergio Busquets and Iniesta who find comfort in a wide 433. Busquets looks incredibly isolated in a 442. And a Messi who will continually drop deep to create space. A 442 isnt ideal for these players and a 433 could at least give an in-form Messi some solace in having more support in attack.
Talking about squad quality, well no shit, are u going to expect to win with a terrible squad? That being said, Lucho didnt even have the right players for the right position. Players like Draxler was having a field day on the right side with Roberto. And Valverde definitely have much more options to experiment with than Lucho.
What u are trying to drive at is "tiki taka", not 433. Tiki taka is incredibly high risk, regardless of the formation, especially when we dont have the quality needed for such a system. A 442 tiki-taka with Rakitic and Iniesta out wide is much worse, simply a disaster waiting to happen. It's never going to work, no matter how u twist it. What Valverde brought to this squad that Lucho doesnt have is the defensive shape and compactness when losing the ball, and results have shown that we have been unbeaten because of that. Using a 433 doesnt mean you have to sacrifice that defensive shape, Madrid used a 433 and was able to transition into a 442 when progressing from an attack to defence. Lucho's Barca high press all over the place, which has its loopholes.
And if u emphasize so much on squad quality and our ageing midfield, regardless is it 442 or 433, aren't u directly implying that we will never win shit bcos they are ageing and we have a shit midfield? We dont have fast midfielders to support a 442 midfield as well, in so many games, we only managed to show we restored some defensive shape. Our attack look absolutely lacklustre with only Messi trying to initiate attacks. Even if u use 442, it will still be exposed bcos of the poor midfield that u keep mentioning. Just that Busquets and Iniesta will be EVEN more compromised than in a 433. U are not utilising them fully. Regardless of age, their creativity has still been immense and are still the biggest influences till today and alot of them has to do with form and morale as well. And a Messi in absolutely blistering form this season, and all we gave him is a fat Suarez and Rakitic to support him?
We all see what he could do against Juventus as a false nine in a 433, so what's there to complain abt the past and what not. It's about recognising the best players u have right now and the positions and systems they are most comfortable in.
Roberto was never tested properly in midfield, the last time he did was the 4-0 against Madrid. I already gave reasons for having a 443, due to some deadweights like Sergio Busquets and Iniesta who find comfort in a wide 433. Busquets looks incredibly isolated in a 442. And a Messi who will continually drop deep to create space. A 442 isnt ideal for these players and a 433 could at least give an in-form Messi some solace in having more support in attack.
Talking about squad quality, well no shit, are u going to expect to win with a terrible squad? That being said, Lucho didnt even have the right players for the right position. Players like Draxler was having a field day on the right side with Roberto. And Valverde definitely have much more options to experiment with than Lucho.
What u are trying to drive at is "tiki taka", not 433. Tiki taka is incredibly high risk, regardless of the formation, especially when we dont have the quality needed for such a system. A 442 tiki-taka with Rakitic and Iniesta out wide is much worse, simply a disaster waiting to happen. It's never going to work, no matter how u twist it. What Valverde brought to this squad that Lucho doesnt have is the defensive shape and compactness when losing the ball, and results have shown that we have been unbeaten because of that. Using a 433 doesnt mean you have to sacrifice that defensive shape, Madrid used a 433 and was able to transition into a 442 when progressing from an attack to defence. Lucho's Barca high press all over the place, which has its loopholes.
And if u emphasize so much on squad quality and our ageing midfield, regardless is it 442 or 433, aren't u directly implying that we will never win shit bcos they are ageing and we have a shit midfield? We dont have fast midfielders to support a 442 midfield as well, in so many games, we only managed to show we restored some defensive shape. Our attack look absolutely lacklustre with only Messi trying to initiate attacks. Even if u use 442, it will still be exposed bcos of the poor midfield that u keep mentioning. Just that Busquets and Iniesta will be EVEN more compromised than in a 433. U are not utilising them fully. Regardless of age, their creativity has still been immense and are still the biggest influences till today and alot of them has to do with form and morale as well. And a Messi in absolutely blistering form this season, and all we gave him is a fat Suarez and Rakitic to support him?
We all see what he could do against Juventus as a false nine in a 433, so what's there to complain abt the past and what not. It's about recognising the best players u have right now and the positions and systems they are most comfortable in.
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JamDav1982
Senior Member
Roberto never played in midfield in the 4-0 Real game.
He played RW and his job was to match Marcelo and drag him inside when Barca had the ball.
Probably about only time in years Marcelo has not dominated that side of the park against Barca.
He played RW and his job was to match Marcelo and drag him inside when Barca had the ball.
Probably about only time in years Marcelo has not dominated that side of the park against Barca.
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