Ernesto Valverde - V1

George_Costanza

Active member
Can't criticize the team for not creating any chances tbh. They were, after all, playing against an Italian coach. Everyone knows you can't create chances against them, let alone score.

The team only create chances through Messi, and this is fine for normal La Liga games but against quality UCL opponents, it will not simply work when they shut down Messi. Contrary to popular opinion here, I think this team is more dependant on Messi than ever. It's evident when you see Liga highest goalscorer and assist this season, both Messi. While last season you have Suarez and Neymar in the top 3 assist list (Messi 6th), top scorer was Suarez. 2015/16, again Suarez tops Liga assist and Neymar 4th. This season none beside Messi tops Liga assist list.

Also, another evidence is Messi dribble attempt, He is currently averaging more dribbles per 90 minutes than he has in any of his previous 6 league seasons. He dribbles more because he doesn't have anyone forward to pass the ball to. He is surrounded by the defensive players around him like Raki, Paulinho, and Roberto.

EV might be able to compete for domestic trophies but he isn't the manager to rely on if we want to win the UCL. If Real wins the UCL again (which is likely), I will consider our campaign as a failure despite winning the league.
 

LeeRomeno

Active member
So we have 4 games now before facing Chelsea again, looking at how Valverde has approached the season so far, i think it will look something like this:
home vs Girona - another team in good shape and was dangerous away, but as it is home-tie and players need rest, I expect quite a few changes and most probably the likes of Semedo/Paco/Vidal/Digne/Gomes/Dembele/Coutinho/Verma? getting chance to play
1 week rest
away vs Las Palmas - we will field already stronger team, as it is away tie and hope to sub players in second half if possible.
home vs Atletico - this match will probably see lineup and tactics we will use vs Chelsea. Home tie, vs strong defensive team that most probably needs to win, so needs to open up at some point.
1 week rest
away vs Malaga - probably play this with 50% level (especially if we get good result vs Atletico), escape with a tie and forum goes nuts how Chelsea will run over us
 

Xaviniesta

Senior Member
coach got outclassed by conte. he's lucky we were gifted a goal, otherwise he would have had a massive challenge in the 2nd leg
 

serghei

Senior Member
I don't have a big problem with him playing it safe away, and not attacking in big numbers to protect the defense. Fine, as long as it doesn't become the norm, he can play that way, but in order to be successful like that you have to thick some other boxes, like:

1) Don't allow teams to be more dangerous while having the ball way less than you. It's true that Chelsea's chances were long range attempts, but all of those weren't from 30m. They were from right near the 16m box. an area you have to block very well. We failed to do that repeatedly.

2) Accelerate when you have a bit of space. We didn't do that too often because it takes talent and character to drive forward with the ball. Rakitic and Paulinho are poor on the ball. Iniesta is too old. Best solution is to integrate Dembele as fast as possible and work on him to be more defensively disciplined.

If you don't want to bring a lot of men forward so you don't leave space behind, then make sure the 3-4 players that have the licence to carry attacks and go deep in the other team's half are fast and can penetrate the lines of the opponent. Rakitic sometimes has to courage to do that, but doesn't do it consistently. It has to be a very obvious situation for him to do it, like when Kovacic basically invited him to.

3) Be strong at set pieces and cut down any blunders. Being bad at marking players is a fatal mistake for a team that plays it safe, more towards defensive. We have moments when our marking is not the best, and, besides that, we have several players capable of cheap giveaways. Roberto, Pique, Stegen, even Busquets. Neither of those players is a naturally gifted defender who can shine at absorbing pressure.

4) Be clinical. This is something we have managed to be so far, and it's one of the main reasons why our season is great result-wise. We create less chances than in the past, but we convert them. So far, goals are coming with relatively few chances created.

5) Be aggressive. Most defensive teams apply great pressure on the opponent's first touch. You rarely get a yellow for that. This is something that we improved on as well. We're more nasty in physical duels, and this has to continue in the future to achieve success with this way of playing.

6) Learn to play on the 2nd ball. One of the best ways to create danger with few players in attack is to position yourself in such a way that you get fast access to any poor touch from the opponent, or any poor clearance. When you attack with fewer players, you can try riskier passes. The other team winning the ball very close to their goal is not as much of an issue.


The problem for me is that Valverde wants to play a certain way, but most of the attributes you need to have as a team to go really deep in CL playing in such a way, are just not there. Some have been implemented by Valverde, and some areas are a work in progress. But, at the same time, I don't see us magically becoming a defensive beast of a team. So far we haven't played a single top class team in full form. Like a Bayern, or a Man City, or even a CL-form Madrid.

The big issue of Valverde however is how do you play in such a way, and just turn it on and become a great offensive team when you need to? Negative possession is not going to work against the tough teams. They will create danger when they get it, and even 30% of the ball is enough during a match to create 4-5 big chances if you have the right players.
 
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behindbrowneyes

Well-known member
EV has so many solutions at his disposal but refuse to use them. Roberto can be really good in the MF, better than both Raki and Paulinho. Semedo should start playing regularly in the RB position to gain his confidence. It seems EV doesn't give a shit about this board which usually is a positive sign but not in this case not playing Dembele and Coutinho is just stupid. 4-3-3 is the way to fit both Dembele and Coutinho in the team.

Everything indicates that 4-2-3-1 will be our future system as it solves more or less all of our problems. We can't play a true 4-3-3 as Messi abandons the wing all the time. So if Messi abandons the wing and plays in the middle Suárez has to go left and play out of position which makes him ineffective.
In a 4-2-3-1 everybody can play at his best position. Suárez can play as #9, Messi behind him in his preferred free role, Coutinho has "his" inverse role and Dembélé can play on the right. Behind them we have Busquets and Rakitic as double-pivot. This system will take a lot of running effort from Cou and Dembélé, but they are young and especially Cou already used to it due to his time under Klopp.

The problem right now is that Coutinho is cup-tied, Dembélé not really fit/no game rhythm and changing the system in this phase of the season is a risk. I don't think Iniesta has the legs for the role in a 4-2-3-1. We have 2 weeks with just 2 games so maybe Valverde tries something new like a 4-2-3-1. We'll see.

When it comes to the CL I doubt Valverde moves on from the 4-4-2. The line-up last weekend showed that he prefers having a well-practised first eleven rather than doing experiments.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
4-2-3-1 already tried. Against Getafe I think.

Still a double pivot system and Messi is too far from goal in my opinion.

It’s not too different from a 4-4-2 with attacking wide players.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Maybe we're a bit harsh on Valverde overall. This is the best result against a CL winner away in a tie since Pep's 2-0 win on Bernabeu in 2011. Let's face it, we always saw CL away games as 'lets just keep it close, nick a goal or two and win the tie on Camp Nou'.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Maybe we're a bit harsh on Valverde overall. This is the best result against a CL winner away in a tie since Pep's 2-0 win on Bernabeu in 2011. Let's face it, we always saw CL away games as 'lets just keep it close, nick a goal or two and win the tie on Camp Nou'.

We were pretty bad away against Sporting in the group stages too. Nothing special away vs Juventus either although both teams were happy with a draw there.

Let's see. Even if we didn't have great results away with Pep and Lucho I suppose, we did play better and created more chances.
 

serghei

Senior Member
We were pretty bad against Sporting in the group stages too. Nothing special away vs Juventus either although both teams were happy with a draw there.

Well, Juve away is a hard one (undefeated in Turin in 5 years) and the draw got us no1 in the group. Sporting away is also a tough one. Madrid got pretty dominated by Sporting both home and away the year before I think.

Away games are very hard in CL against any serious team. Against the big ones (Chelsea is a big team in CL imo) draws with goal/goals are good results.

During Pep we couldn't even beat weak Milan away. 0-0. Lost to Chelsea 0-1. Even drew (barely) with Stuttgart 1-1. Lost to Arsenal 2-1. Drew with Arsenal 2-2. Lost to Inter 3-1.

In 4 years with Pep the only great result against a top team away was the 2-0 win on Bernabeu. The 1-1 with Chelsea was lucky as fuck.
 
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DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Well, Juve away is a hard one (undefeated in Turin in 5 years) and the draw got us no1 in the group. Sporting away is also a tough one. Madrid got pretty dominated by Sporting both home and away the year before I think.

Away games are very hard in CL against any serious team. Against the big ones (Chelsea is a big team in CL imo) draws with goal/goals are good results.

Don't have a problem with the result. It's a good one. More of an issue with the pattern of play we've showing lately and how slow, dull and out of ideas it can look with everyone waiting for Messi to bail the team out.

Not sustainable against better teams IMO.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Don't have a problem with the result. It's a good one. More of an issue with the pattern of play we've showing lately and how slow, dull and out of ideas it can look with everyone waiting for Messi to bail the team out.

Not sustainable against better teams IMO.

Yea, but it could be a bad patch of form. We need a big win to get us back on track. Defense has been holding up I think (though not nearly perfect), but the attack is falling behind. Attacking contribution from midfield and fullbacks has decreased massively. Paulinho is playing poorly after a good start with goals, and Roberto and Alba are losing form.

Now it's the perfect time to fully integrate Semedo, Coutinho and Dembele in La Liga. It's 2+ weeks until we play Atletico and Chelsea, so we can recover nicely physically.

Valverde needs to do one thing. Trust more of the new signings, and stop playing it safe so much. Too much playing it safe can backfire. He's putting it all on the old guard atm. Need fresh blood in the team. It's not too late for some new players to have a big impact in CL. Sometimes a month can be a lot of time in football.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Ask [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]. He is the one of the impression that the 4-4-2 is better to deal with counters than a 4-3-3. I argue against this. You can't stop counters... All you can do is be prepared for them or win the ball back high up.


No. I posted those stats to show that the variations of the 4-4-2 are no better defensively than a 4-3-3. The differences are negligible in terms of xGA90.

No the stats you posted showed that the flat 4-4-2 stonger defensively for Barca than 4-3-3 and despite you claiming Barca have been lucky defensively they had the best record in top three leagues terms of quality of chances given up.

Basically posted stats to contradict everything you had been saying.
 
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Joan

Well-known member
Just a question for the critics. How would you break the bus with the players we had at disposal yesterday?
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
I'm glad you brought this up but this is where I disagree with a lot on this board and I've explained this before. Formations define roles, they define spaces, they allow players to conserve energy, they directly linked to tactics...

Judging by what coaches says, it is actually the opposite. Roles define the formations. 433 and 442 is something for us fans to talk about easily, not what real coaches in the top level do

The way I see it, we go back to playing our 4-3-3 possession game or we continue with these double pivot experiments. Continuing with the double pivot would necessitate a change in the way we play though. We'd have to give up possession and play a little more chaotic like Madrid for example and rely on individual brilliance more.

Again, 433 you are thinking about isn't gonna happen, it needs to bench Iniesta,Rakitic and Suarez to do it, and we don't have players to replace them atm. when Coutinho & Dembele is fully integrated it might happen next year but not this year.
Even if we play Dembele, it will be 442 we are playing,and disagree about your thoughts of Rakitic, 442 helped to use him and Iniesta greatly for most part. It suit both of them way more than 433

A stagnant 442 is worse. Having Paulinho in your team gives u zero control either. It's almost like putting a cone to make it 442, if u dont have the quality of a 442 it's equally useless and will only complicate matters.

stagnant 442 still give us more balance and defense than stagnant 433, could be worse in attack but you don't lose in other aspects. Right now defense is this team strength not attack.

I don't see any evidence to support your argument that 442 isn't far superior in defense than 433, Last night we were only vulnerable to outside shooting for most part which was due to bad possession from Raki/Busi duo. And this is with very attacking minded fullbacks. when 433 was bad defensively it was a disaster, this was shown in every bad year we had.
 

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