Ernesto Valverde - V1

[Horatio]

Next season people will start to appreciate what Valverde has done this season. That's how it always works.

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

Just saw some stats on Reddit that show how eerily similar this season is so far to the 13/14 campaign:

"By matchweek 24, the 13/14 team had 60 points, today Barca has 62. In 13/14 we had 69 goals for and 17 against, now we have 62 for and 11 against. In 13/14 we played against and beat an English team in the Champions League Round of 16 (Man City). The 13/14 team also made it to the Copa Del Rey final (which we eventually lost). The main difference between the 13/14 and 17/18 season is that in 13/14 both Atlético and Real weren't complete failures in the league and could keep up. In fact, by matchweek 24, all 3 were even in points (Barca was first for having better head to head record)."

Spooky shit, this has been a carbon copy of the 13/14 season with the only difference being Atletico coming down to earth and Madrid turning to absolute dog shit in the league. Let's just hope the season ends differently this time around.

 

[Lelouch vi Britannia]

Just saw some stats on Reddit that show how eerily similar this season is so far to the 13/14 campaign:


Spooky shit, this has been a carbon copy of the 13/14 season with the only difference being Atletico coming down to earth and Madrid turning to absolute dog shit in the league. Let's just hope the season ends differently this time around.

Reminds me more of 12/13 actually. Get ridiculous stats in the league, be dog shit in the CL knockouts. Difference is that season we were shit in big games period.

 

[Stoichkov1]

Just saw some stats on Reddit that show how eerily similar this season is so far to the 13/14 campaign:


Spooky shit, this has been a carbon copy of the 13/14 season with the only difference being Atletico coming down to earth and Madrid turning to absolute dog shit in the league. Let's just hope the season ends differently this time around.

The difference is also our defensive record if you didn't notice.

 

[Birdy]

Not me. I still maintain he is not the coach to take this team forward.



Really good post. But no good wingers? Eh... We have Coutinho, we have Dembélé and if it weren't for Valverde's reluctance to make some hard choices their integration would have been a lot more seamless. Valverde has played Coutinho as a RW, RM, LW, LM, LCM... How is he supposed to gain any sort of consistency when he is passed around from position to position like some sort of Amsterdam prostitute? Sometimes he is asked to switch positions in the same game. Dembélé even though fit again has not seen any minutes since Getafe. A game in which despite losing the ball often created more chances than anybody except Messi. He is dangerous this guy. His mere presence allows for more space through the middle.

Can't play as 8's... Rakitic was never an 8, hell, he was never a 6. He is a box to box workhorse who, according to you can't play internally, but yet is being used as part of a double pivot. Mmmmm...

Iniesta... You say can't play as an 8 either any longer but the solution for Valverde is to move him wider where more pace and skill is required...

Suarez... Nobody is asking him to convert to a winger, he would play as a left inside forward. Something which he is doing often enough already. I'd actually prefer he be moved on because him and Messi in the same 11 causes imbalances



Valverde is mismanaging the squad. Players are playing in positions and roles they're not suited for. Paulinho, Gomes, Iniesta, Coutinho, Roberto...

I also don't think that we're lacking in terms of individual quality, especially now. Messi, Suarez, Dembélé, Coutinho, Iniesta, Busquets, Roberto, Alba, Umtiti, Pique, MaTS, Cillessen. And then you have a guy like Denis with obvious Barça creative qualities but he is not being developed because Valverde prefers a workhorse like Gomes. Rafinha was sent packing too...

This season is starting smell a lot like Tata's season.

1) Coutinho was not playing yesterday, and as far as we have seen, he is not integrated yet. Same for Dembele. Yes, he was dangerous vs Getafe, but obviously he cannot follow yet what the coach wants.
Valverde's ideas had been clear about the 4-4-2 he employs. He wants both wingers to track back all the way, be concentrated, and help the team stay compact. Something Dembele is not doing so far, whereas Iniesta is able to do.
Rakitic in his best season in a Barca shirt, 14-15, was playing Xavi's position. Yes, technically he is a box to box, for Barca's 4-3-3 this position is not exactly a box to box. Same here. He is bad IMO and in many other people's opinion, since there are many things he cannot do. But, he can do a thing Valverde wants. Keep his position, help the team stay compact, distribute the ball correctly. Why other options EV has there right now? Paulinho who is a box to box, but cannot play there at all, no positional awareness. Roberto, as many people want, but again, despite his pace, workrate, etc, there are serious doubts he has the positional awareness to play there..
Of course, it is more obvious than the sun which rises every morning, that we need a player there. That's why it was a serious loss that we didn't get Seri in the summer, despite all the doubts people had about his quality. He is not Veratti, but it would have been a significant upgrade over Rakitic.

2) For the quality of the squad: It goes without saying that any of the Pep's era XIs is miles superior to the current one in terms of quality.
But even 13-14,14-15 and 15-16 he had significantly better squad than today.

And let's be more specific: If we exclude Coutinnho and Dembele, who -lets be honest - are still not integrated in the team, which ones of the current squad would play at most other top clubs? Only 4 players: Messi, Ter Stegen, Sergio, and Umtiti.
For all the others you can find from slightly to enormously better players in their positions. Suarez was great but he is not Suarez of 14-16 anymore, same for Iniesta (yes he is a living legend of Barcelona but time to move on), same for Pique. Then you have Alba, Roberto, Semedo who are OKish in different aspects, but not wold-class.
And then of course you have a lot of players who are not Barca-quality: Raki (the last two years), Paulinho, Gomez, Vidal, Paco, Digne, Vermaelen. And of course you have 'eternal talents' like Rafinha, Denis, Deulofeu, for whom it is questionable if they will even become good enough.

3) The fact that Valverde can get the best out of mediocre players (and that's the reason Paulinho is so useful this year, and that even Paco, Gomez and Vidal have found a place and a role in the squad) does not change the fact that he is left with the worst Barca squad since pre-Rijkaard.
He has done miracles with the current squad, even if we get eliminated by Chelsea, walking by February into a domestic double.
I will be harsh on Valverde in terms of the football we play, and how competitive we will be in the CL next season, IF AND ONLY IF the board gets not only Griezman, but a world-class player to play next to Sergio.
Only with Coutinho and Dembele properly integrated and from the pre-season, with Griezman starting, with a proper world-class md, with Iniesta, Suarez, Rakitic on the bench, and with Pique being gradually replaced, all of us will be able to judge Valverde in terms of the quality of football he plays.
Then, all the statements about him being unsuited for Barca, being coward, will be meaningful judgments. Now they are not, because they overlook all the above.

 

[Barcilliant]

http://www.espnfc.com.au/club/barce...ced-speed-for-solidity-under-ernesto-valverde

Just a question for the critics. How would you break the bus with the players we had at disposal yesterday?

Get Pique playing as auxiliary cf or even Paulinho and cross the ball into the area. Paulinho showed some power and on two occasions burst through but no one was in the box. Pique can be pretty effective going forward and has caused problems for defence before. Remember both legs of the Inter tie. As soon as Pique pushed forward he caused problems.

Valverde used Aduritz aerial ability effectively at Bilbao. While Pique and Paulinho are not in the same league he could have tried it. He could have used some width and speed with Dembele but was happy with a narrow loss or the draw.

 

[MagIX]

http://www.espnfc.com.au/club/barce...ced-speed-for-solidity-under-ernesto-valverde

Thanks for posting, interesting reading.
An analysis shared by several users (me included)...

 

[MessiCam]

No the stats you posted showed that the flat 4-4-2 stonger defensively for Barca than 4-3-3 and despite you claiming Barca have been lucky defensively they had the best record in top three leagues terms of quality of chances given up.

Basically posted stats to contradict everything you had been saying.

Look man, I can't help you if you're unwilling to read, pay attention or work things out for yourself.

We are led to believe that the 4-4-2 is this monster defensively when in fact the xGA/90 is only marginally better. At this stage it would result in the grand total of 7 less goals over 38 games.

Last years 4-3-3 xGA/90 was even less than that of the 4-4-2 this year.

So no. The 4-4-2 is not this defensive monster some would have us believe.

 

[BBZ8800]

A stagnant 442 is worse. Having Paulinho in your team gives u zero control either. It's almost like putting a cone to make it 442, if u dont have the quality of a 442 it's equally useless and will only complicate matters. The crux of the issue is that we are playing possession football, if we can transition better, the more u will push the opponent further into the box and stretch their defence. Messi will drop deep don't worry, and once they get dominated so deep in their box they will hardly get past their halfway line. Suarez will have at least Dembele to poke at their defence and give him support, just like how Willian had Pedro.

How is 442 worse than for example Lucho's 433 with MSN?
We had MSN upfront and played way worse than now.
Not to mention how much better our defense and results are.

And no, it is not only due to Mats.
We are not all over the place defensively like in 433.
We played with Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi under Lucho.
Same trio would play even now. Except that they are even more slower and older than 1-2 years ago and would leave even more free space for counters.
And we would have Dembele instead of Neymar.
And you are expecting better results?
How?
Seriously, how?

Also, you mention width in attack.
On one wing we have Suarez, who is not a winger and dribbler.
And on the other, a rookie kid Dembele.

Even if they will create something, what will happen?
Dembele can't score a goal.
And all they will do is dribble and play backpasses to the edge of the box to Messi, and all opponents know that.

So, basically, our only 2 attacking plans currently are:
1. pass through the middle till death, which doesn't work against big teams who know how to par the bus in the middle and leave the flanks open
2. when we do attack through flanks, we can't cross (since there is nobody to head the ball in the middle), we can't score after dribbles (Dembele), we can't dribble (LW Suarez).
And all we do is pass the ball back to Messi at the edge of a box after a good wing action.

Our 442 and 433 are facing the same attacking problems.
The only difference is that we are better in defense with 442, as we can see in this season.

Our longterm planning is all over the place, that is a problem.
If we want to play 433 longterm, then we can't play with turtles Iniesta-Raki-Busi.
If we want faster players, then they can't be 170cm tall players either. Or not all of them. And currently it seems that our future midfield duo will be Coutinho-Arthur/Alena or something like that. And that will be a true horror show in terms of defending, wait and see.
On the other hand, if we play with taller guys like Gomes-Raki, we will suck again.
So, we need some mix and balance.
Our current 433 wouldn't have any balance.

Further, for 433 to work, your 3 attackers need to be good dribbles and good finishers.
Suarez at Lw is not a dribbler.
Dembele at Rw can't score.
Messi is not an attacker lately, he is an allrounder.
So, in our current 433, we would have a horribly balanced midfield, a horrible defense, and attack consisted of one player who is not playing in attack at all (Messi) and of one who can't score and defend (Dembele) and of Suarez playing at a wrong position.

I have really no idea what are you guys expecting from 433.
It sucked for years, and on paper, everything indicates that our current mix of players will be even worse in 433 than any other set of players after Pep.

If you want to play 433, we would need to sell half of our team and buy proper players for that formation.
Not to mention that a current allrounder Messi will ruin every 433.
The last time when 433 worked was in Lucho's first season with MSN, when Messi played as a Rw.

I have no idea how are you expecting for 433 to magically start to work after all these years and with these players where half of them are not suitable for that formation anymore.

If you think that we played bad defensively against Chelsea, lol, I will just post this match with our beloved 433 OVER AND OVER for 100 times.
This is a true horror show on all parts of a field.
In attack, we sucked and couldn't create a single shot with a mighty MSN+Iniesta.
In midfield, we left tons of free space in every counter.
On wings, we left tons of space.

Basically, wherever you go, a current set of older turtles will leave tons of space in 433.
It will feel as if we are playing 10 vs 11 or 9 vs 11 compared to a 442.

Chelsea had 3 longrange shots and nothing else.
Look at a horror show with 433 against Psg.

And once again, if we couldn't create a shit with MSN (Neymar here), how are you expecting that a rookie kid who is slipping all the time with 200 minutes in the team will create more than MSN who were toothless for the last 2 years?

 

[DonAK]

http://www.espnfc.com.au/club/barce...ced-speed-for-solidity-under-ernesto-valverde

Thanks for posting, interesting reading.
An analysis shared by several users (me included)...

Indeed he did, and that lead to 2012/13 style sterile possession with everyone waiting for Messi to pull a rabbit out of the hat while Chelsea had more dangerous actions.

This Chelsea isn't even close to the 2012, 2009 and 2005 editions we met. Inexperienced defenders, underwhelming attacking and a 30+ Cesc Fabregas as their main midfielder.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Indeed he did, and that lead to 2012/13 style sterile possession with everyone waiting for Messi to pull a rabbit out of the hat while Chelsea had more dangerous actions.

This Chelsea isn't even close to the 2012, 2009 and 2005 editions we met. Inexperienced defenders, underwhelming attacking and a 30+ Cesc Fabregas as their main midfielder.

I would say that this Chelsea team is far better than 2012 team and probably it isn't even close. This was the worst team I've ever seen to reach CL SF never mind champions. 2009 was probably as good and had Hiddink made a great game just like Conte

 

[George_Costanza]

http://www.espnfc.com.au/club/barce...ced-speed-for-solidity-under-ernesto-valverde

"Barca are happy to sit back and keep things tight, waiting for the perfect moment to exploit a tiring opponent"

Mourinho would be so proud of this team

 

[MessiCam]

How is 442 worse than for example Lucho's 433 with MSN?
We had MSN upfront and played way worse than now.
Not to mention how much better our defense and results are.

And no, it is not only due to Mats.
We are not all over the place defensively like in 433.
We played with Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi under Lucho.
Same trio would play even now. Except that they are even more slower and older than 1-2 years ago and would leave even more free space for counters.
And we would have Dembele instead of Neymar.
And you are expecting better results?
How?
Seriously, how?

Also, you mention width in attack.
On one wing we have Suarez, who is not a winger and dribbler.
And on the other, a rookie kid Dembele.

Even if they will create something, what will happen?
Dembele can't score a goal.
And all they will do is dribble and play backpasses to the edge of the box to Messi, and all opponents know that.

So, basically, our only 2 attacking plans currently are:
1. pass through the middle till death, which doesn't work against big teams who know how to par the bus in the middle and leave the flanks open
2. when we do attack through flanks, we can't cross (since there is nobody to head the ball in the middle), we can't score after dribbles (Dembele), we can't dribble (LW Suarez).
And all we do is pass the ball back to Messi at the edge of a box after a good wing action.

Our 442 and 433 are facing the same attacking problems.
The only difference is that we are better in defense with 442, as we can see in this season.

Our longterm planning is all over the place, that is a problem.
If we want to play 433 longterm, then we can't play with turtles Iniesta-Raki-Busi.
If we want faster players, then they can't be 170cm tall players either. Or not all of them. And currently it seems that our future midfield duo will be Coutinho-Arthur/Alena or something like that. And that will be a true horror show in terms of defending, wait and see.
On the other hand, if we play with taller guys like Gomes-Raki, we will suck again.
So, we need some mix and balance.
Our current 433 wouldn't have any balance.

Further, for 433 to work, your 3 attackers need to be good dribbles and good finishers.
Suarez at Lw is not a dribbler.
Dembele at Rw can't score.
Messi is not an attacker lately, he is an allrounder.
So, in our current 433, we would have a horribly balanced midfield, a horrible defense, and attack consisted of one player who is not playing in attack at all (Messi) and of one who can't score and defend (Dembele) and of Suarez playing at a wrong position.

I have really no idea what are you guys expecting from 433.
It sucked for years, and on paper, everything indicates that our current mix of players will be even worse in 433 than any other set of players after Pep.

If you want to play 433, we would need to sell half of our team and buy proper players for that formation.
Not to mention that a current allrounder Messi will ruin every 433.
The last time when 433 worked was in Lucho's first season with MSN, when Messi played as a Rw.

I have no idea how are you expecting for 433 to magically start to work after all these years and with these players where half of them are not suitable for that formation anymore.

If you think that we played bad defensively against Chelsea, lol, I will just post this match with our beloved 433 OVER AND OVER for 100 times.
This is a true horror show on all parts of a field.
In attack, we sucked and couldn't create a single shot with a mighty MSN+Iniesta.
In midfield, we left tons of free space in every counter.
On wings, we left tons of space.

Basically, wherever you go, a current set of older turtles will leave tons of space in 433.
It will feel as if we are playing 10 vs 11 or 9 vs 11 compared to a 442.

Chelsea had 3 longrange shots and nothing else.
Look at a horror show with 433 against Psg.

And once again, if we couldn't create a shit with MSN (Neymar here), how are you expecting that a rookie kid who is slipping all the time with 200 minutes in the team will create more than MSN who were toothless for the last 2 years?

See BBZ talking his usual crap without much evidence. Just what plays out in his mind...

The reason there were gaps in midfield under Lucho was due to Rakitic being drawn out wide to cover for Messi. Leaving us with 2 central midfielders. How is this any different to the 4-4-2? This was explained to you 100 times but it doesn’t sink in.

Just to refresh your memory...

Does this look familiar?

 

[Luftstalag14]

It is sad reading that ESPN FC article. Even though I understand everything evolves and changes and so do we, but to see us playing this kind of football is quite sad for me. Yes Valverde had to make do with what we have and result-wise it has been good so far, but his playing-safe approach and his hesitance to integrate new and younger players such as Semedo and Dembele, together with our less-than-stellar display on the pitch make me wonder what we can achieve under him. Are we going to be satisfied with fewer goals conceded and continuing praying for Messi to bail us out every game?

 

[JamDav1982]

Look man, I can't help you if you're unwilling to read, pay attention or work things out for yourself.

We are led to believe that the 4-4-2 is this monster defensively when in fact the xGA/90 is only marginally better. At this stage it would result in the grand total of 7 less goals over 38 games.

Last years 4-3-3 xGA/90 was even less than that of the 4-4-2 this year.

So no. The 4-4-2 is not this defensive monster some would have us believe.

No you need to look at your awful maths before claiming they are the same.

The 4-4-2 is clearly better defensively from the stats you produced and is better going forward.

You also spent time telling us it was all a myth that a Barca were strong defensively but then produce a link which shows the best in terms of chances given away in top three leagues.

That link you produced contradicted pretty much every argument you put forward.