Ernesto Valverde - V1

[khaled_a_d]

The double pivot isnt really useful while attacking, it's mostly just Iniesta, Messi and Dembele being outnumbered while Suarez is way upfront. Plus they were all sitting very deep in their box and can hardly transition at all and Chelsea's pressing caused alot of problems. Couldnt blame them. Busquets/Iniesta/ Rakitic were all misplacing passes.

The double pivot will be more useful for the workhorses as they can physically win and drive the balls forward.

But if one were to play Busquets, Rakitic and Iniesta it's better to have a 433. Because in a 442 they are easily pressed and overrun.

433 with our attack will be suicidal to say at least. Rakitic and Iniesta looked shit in it last season.

Last year we used same 433, what did our midfield create? nothing
How did our defense do? awful, our right side was totally exposed.
You are blaming 442 for the shortcoming of our midfielders, truth is it is made to make that shortcoming less visible and it is almost a fact that it is.
Last year we had MSN to bail us out in attack, this year it is MS only so we look worse but we are far better in defense and it is fair trade atm.

In 433 Iniesta was again playing LCM, Rakitic was RCM and it was only Busquets in middle,
This year it is Paulinho as RCM, Iniesta as LCM and Rakitic is CM. Rakitic looked better, Iniesta overall are more decisive than last season and Paulinho when he wasn't shit was doing his job in right side.
Sure Iniesta is playing far more on the left than last season, but that is to free Alba more which we benefited a lot from in attack without facing consequences in defense.

Paulino turning into shit is hurting us, that is fact. and non of replacements has impressed yet. so it is gonna be 10+1 for us in most cases.
But to play a 433 that will make midfield of Raki-Busquets-Iniesta look good we will need
1-Two full backs who are excellent in defense and attack, currently we have one in Alba.
2-2 wingers who will prevent opposings full backs from attacking us, either from tracking back like Neymar did or from being the goat that you never want to leave him like Messi. currently we have non
3-fountain of youth for Iniesta, scientists are probably working on it, but still with no success

 

[MessiCam]

Iniesta and Paulinho when he plays were never a true wide player, they are LCM more or less, not a true wingers. They were always present to provide help in the middle which is one of the reasons we still has possession in high rate this year. It decrease pressure on Iniesta but he is still a controller. It adds more midfielder not the opposite.
Dembele didn't do that last night at all, instead was awful in passing and always giving safe ball to the man behind (Raki/Roberto) and Iniesta himself wasn't good.

But they were tasked with playing wide which leaves us light in central midfield with only 2. One being a defensive midfielder and the other a workhorse... Iniesta definitely wasn’t playing as a CM...

And I told you about this regarding Dembélé just the other day and you blew me off. Playing in midfield means too much associative play for him. He is an attacker. He shouldn’t be doing that sort of stuff.

So all this considered don’t you think it’s best, in terms of balance, to go 4-3-3 with the players we have? 3 CM’s instead of 2 and 3 forwards. It was quite embarrassing how Chelsea overran our midfield due to lack of passing options.

If we’re going to play 4-4-2 then Dembélé and Coutinho’s purchases will have been in vain. They’re not suited for the roles. A 4-2-3-1 fixes their situation somewhat but again at the expense of midfield.

 

[khaled_a_d]

But they were tasked with playing wide which leaves us light in central midfield with only 2. One being a defensive midfielder and the other a workhorse... Iniesta definitely wasn’t playing as a CM...

And I told you about this regarding Dembélé just the other day and you blew me off. Playing in midfield means too much associative play for him. He is an attacker. He shouldn’t be doing that sort of stuff.

So all this considered don’t you think it’s best, in terms of balance, to go 4-3-3 with the players we have? 3 CM’s instead of 2 and 3 forwards. It was quite embarrassing how Chelsea overran our midfield due to lack of passing options.

If we’re going to play 4-4-2 then Dembélé and Coutinho’s purchases will have been in vain. They’re not suited for the roles. A 4-2-3-1 fixes their situation somewhat but again at the expense of midfield.

Read my replay to henias. our midfield in 433 will be more or less like last year, just older with weaker attack and same defensive problem while sacrificing ALba's attack.
Look, when you have all the tools, 433 is the ideal football line up but at the moment we don't have the tools. EV was promised to have Verratti and then he lost Neymar. so to put it into perspective he is having Paulinho and Dembele instead of Neymar Verratti and no matter how much we joke about PSG the later are way better duo.
I think next season should be different argument, we shouldn't have this mess in transfers and Dembele (hopefully live up to his potential) and Coutinho and summer purchases, I am really hopeful we will turn it into either 433 or 4231. but currently I just don't see the tools of either line ups, may be 4231 in Liga with Cou in Iniesta place

 

[MessiCam]

433 with our attack will be suicidal to say at least. Rakitic and Iniesta looked shit in it last season.

Last year we used same 433, what did our midfield create? nothing
How did our defense do? awful, our right side was totally exposed.
You are blaming 442 for the shortcoming of our midfielders, truth is it is made to make that shortcoming less visible and it is almost a fact that it is.
Last year we had MSN to bail us out in attack, this year it is MS only so we look worse but we are far better in defense and it is fair trade atm.

In 433 Iniesta was again playing LCM, Rakitic was RCM and it was only Busquets in middle,
This year it is Paulinho as RCM, Iniesta as LCM and Rakitic is CM. Rakitic looked better, Iniesta overall are more decisive than last season and Paulinho when he wasn't shit was doing his job in right side.
Sure Iniesta is playing far more on the left than last season, but that is to free Alba more which we benefited a lot from in attack without facing consequences in defense.

Paulino turning into shit is hurting us, that is fact. and non of replacements has impressed yet. so it is gonna be 10+1 for us in most cases.
But to play a 433 that will make midfield of Raki-Busquets-Iniesta look good we will need
1-Two full backs who are excellent in defense and attack, currently we have one in Alba.
2-2 wingers who will prevent opposings full backs from attacking us, either from tracking back like Neymar did or from being the goat that you never want to leave him like Messi. currently we have non
3-fountain of youth for Iniesta, scientists are probably working on it, but still with no success

Nah man, last year we played a crippled 4-3-3 due to Messi abandoning his post meaning Rakitic had to take up a wide position to cover the full back. So last year was basically a lopsided 4-2-3-1 due to Rakitic moving wide leaving Busquets and Iniesta as the only CM’s.

Valverde fixed that by moving Messi to False 9 and Suárez to the left and the midfield was fine. Our finest performance to date against a big team came in a 4-3-3 against Juventus.

Paulinho and Iniesta playing wide doesn’t help with midfield dominance at all. The midfield battle is won smack in centre around the centre circle. Wide options are outlets.

 

[MessiCam]

Read my replay to henias. our midfield in 433 will be more or less like last year, just older with weaker attack and same defensive problem while sacrificing ALba's attack.
Look, when you have all the tools, 433 is the ideal football line up but at the moment we don't have the tools. EV was promised to have Verratti and then he lost Neymar. so to put it into perspective he is having Paulinho and Dembele instead of Neymar Verratti and no matter how much we joke about PSG the later are way better duo.
I think next season should be different argument, we shouldn't have this mess in transfers and Dembele (hopefully live up to his potential) and Coutinho and summer purchases, I am really hopeful we will turn it into either 433 or 4231. but currently I just don't see the tools of either line ups, may be 4231 in Liga with Cou in Iniesta place

Why do you people keep saying the same thing. The midfield is not the same as last year. Rakitic doesn’t need to play wide... Rakitic and Busquets are but 30 years old too... also the reason Alba was hindered was due to a ball hungry Neymar. That problem no longer exists. The 4-2-3-1 also fixes nothing in midfield because you’re still a man down in a critical area of the pitch.

This was last year against Juventus. Look at Rakitic and what he was doing with the arrow...

This is against Juventus this year. Look at Rakitic now.

Here is an article on the matter


So I will ask again. How do you establish numerical superiority in midfield with a double pivot without sacrificing your width?

Stop avoiding the question.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Why do you people keep saying the same thing. The midfield is not the same as last year. Rakitic doesn’t need to play wide... Rakitic and Busquets are but 30 years old too... also the reason Alba was hindered was due to a ball hungry Neymar. That problem no longer exists. The 4-2-3-1 also fixes nothing in midfield because you’re still a man down in a critical area of the pitch.

So I will ask again. How do you establish numerical superiority in midfield with a double pivot without sacrificing your width? Stop avoiding the question.

You will never get you answer if you keep pretending that Iniesta and Paulinho are true wide player, they aren't. They contribute a lot in the center of the game specially when we have the ball.
And you keep fooling yourself if you think Suarez will play on left side, he isn't good at it and he kept leaving it and Iniesta was more or less LCM too. the only difference between early in the season and now is that Suarez will stay 10 more minutes on the left and that is it, he was still playing a lot of time centrally, or else he looked shit.

 

[henias]

433 with our attack will be suicidal to say at least. Rakitic and Iniesta looked shit in it last season.

Last year we used same 433, what did our midfield create? nothing
How did our defense do? awful, our right side was totally exposed.
You are blaming 442 for the shortcoming of our midfielders, truth is it is made to make that shortcoming less visible and it is almost a fact that it is.
Last year we had MSN to bail us out in attack, this year it is MS only so we look worse but we are far better in defense and it is fair trade atm.

In 433 Iniesta was again playing LCM, Rakitic was RCM and it was only Busquets in middle,
This year it is Paulinho as RCM, Iniesta as LCM and Rakitic is CM. Rakitic looked better, Iniesta overall are more decisive than last season and Paulinho when he wasn't shit was doing his job in right side.
Sure Iniesta is playing far more on the left than last season, but that is to free Alba more which we benefited a lot from in attack without facing consequences in defense.

Paulino turning into shit is hurting us, that is fact. and non of replacements has impressed yet. so it is gonna be 10+1 for us in most cases.
But to play a 433 that will make midfield of Raki-Busquets-Iniesta look good we will need
1-Two full backs who are excellent in defense and attack, currently we have one in Alba.
2-2 wingers who will prevent opposings full backs from attacking us, either from tracking back like Neymar did or from being the goat that you never want to leave him like Messi. currently we have non
3-fountain of youth for Iniesta, scientists are probably working on it, but still with no success

Nope 433 isnt the issue, there were positional problems, Messi at RW but he isnt at RW at all and was playing centrally.

4-3-3 against Juventus when Messi was at false 9 was dominant in every way possible.

 

[MessiCam]

You will never get you answer if you keep pretending that Iniesta and Paulinho are true wide player, they aren't. They contribute a lot in the center of the game specially when we have the ball.
And you keep fooling yourself if you think Suarez will play on left side, he isn't good at it and he kept leaving it and Iniesta was more or less LCM too. the only difference between early in the season and now is that Suarez will stay 10 more minutes on the left and that is it, he was still playing a lot of time centrally, or else he looked shit.

So forget about Paulinho and Iniesta then. The system is played with Coutinho and Dembélé too.

And Suarez stayed left against Girona and only moved centrally in the final third and that’s exactly what he should be doing...

You know why you can’t answer the question? Because it cannot be done.

 

[Barça Barça Barça]

Not sure how anyone can criticise Valverde. We are 8 points clear at the top of the league and still unbeaten, in the cup final & in the last 8 of the Champions League. No one would have expected that in August after losing Neymar (and his replacement being injured most the season) and being battered by Madrid twice.

 

[MessiCam]

Nope 433 isnt the issue, there were positional problems, Messi at RW but he isnt at RW at all and was playing centrally.

4-3-3 against Juventus when Messi was at false 9 was dominant in every way possible.

They don’t want to hear that. They will rather have everybody play out of position just so Suárez can play centrally. It has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve come across in all my life.

Since when are 30 year old midfielders not enough? Fernandinho and Da Silva are 32 years old with a 26 year old De Bruyne.

It’s mental gymnastics at its finest. They see the problems but find excuses as to why there’s no way around it.

 

[MessiCam]

Not sure how anyone can criticise Valverde. We are 8 points clear at the top of the league and still unbeaten, in the cup final & in the last 8 of the Champions League. No one would have expected that in August after losing Neymar (and his replacement being injured most the season) and being battered by Madrid twice.

So you don’t have a problem with our midfield being overrun by the likes of Chelsea (who basically conceded a game to Man City but come attack us in our own back yard like some Segunda team), Eibar and Las Palmas (particularly the first half).

The 2 man central midfield is not working and hasn’t since January. We’re struggling... When we play 4-3-3 all those problems just disappear like against Girona and Malaga.

 

[serghei]

The way we defended this season we stopped every big team from scoring enough to beat us.

Man, at the end of the day in this match, we have done a poor job defending even if Chelsea didn't score. A lot of last ditch tackles, 2 posts for Chelsea, some top class Stegen saves. The point is to stop the other team from creating those chances, not see them miss them because they don't have any top strikers, and then brag about getting a clean sheet.

Yea, if we score 3 and Chelsea don't have any chances, sure, great defensive performance. But we had moments where we were pretty chaotic out there, and Chelsea could have scored more than 1 goal if they were more focused or more careful.

 

[khaled_a_d]

4-3-3 against Juventus when Messi was at false 9 was dominant in every way possible.

Our best display was against RM and we played 442. our best patch of games this season was with 442. So what is your point again?

Since when are 30 year old midfielders not enough? Fernandinho and Da Silva are 32 years old with a 26 year old De Bruyne.

You are answering your question yourself.

 

[henias]

Our best display was against RM and we played 442. our best patch of games this season was with 442. So what is your point again?

RM was utter shite and didnt press at all. Still hardly the best display. Against Atletico, Las Palmas, it was absolutely horrendous. Or shud I say 4231. It's just way too narrow. I just dont like Suarez being isolated upfront. Busquets and Rakitic is practically useless where their control and vision has come to play because everything is just too narrow. They were completely overrun yesterday and EV panicked. We are better off playing Paulinho and Gomes in a 4231.

 

[Stoichkov1]

Man, at the end of the day in this match, we have done a poor job defending even if Chelsea didn't score. A lot of last ditch tackles, 2 posts for Chelsea, some top class Stegen saves. The point is to stop the other team from creating those chances, not see them miss them because they don't have any top strikers, and then brag about getting a clean sheet.

Yea, if we score 3 and Chelsea don't have any chances, sure, great defensive performance. But we had moments where we were pretty chaotic out there, and Chelsea could have scored more than 1 goal if they were more focused or more careful.

The only clear chances they had were Alonso's freekick and Rudiger header when the match was already over. A freekick can't be considered a defensive mistake of course.

They had half chances with two Alonso shots that were brilliantly blocked by Dembélé and Piqué.

Did you see how many shots Juve's defence conceded against Tottenham? And Juve's defence is considered the best in the world with Atletico's.