Barcilliant
Senior Member
I've been saying this all along. Too often in cl we move the ball slowly, doubt ourselves, look weak and end up with the inevitable qf exit. We are not. A top three club in Europe anymore. We are top 8.
I've been saying this all along. Too often in cl we move the ball slowly, doubt ourselves, look weak and end up with the inevitable qf exit. We are not. A top three club in Europe anymore. We are top 8.
serghei
Senior Member
It comes out of laziness and lack of focus. Dynamic teams work hard on the field. They basically run their socks off.
And Messi is among the players who show this laziness and lack of interest the most. He's miles away from the intensity that is required in CL to win this competition. This is why Salah is breaking Roma apart and Messi barely troubled them.
Check out this pic. Of course you can't create anything like this. You star player is 7m behind in offside position when he was supposed to move the Roma players around and create space. Plenty of situation like this one.
I mean, seriously, what the fuck is that?
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Gaudi
Senior Member
[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]...I agree he is lazy sometimes, though he moves smart so he can mask laziness a lot...but, that can be easily fixed...my concern is that our style doesn't allow us to play fast. Yesterday L'pool did many long passes, direct passes and looked to be all over Roma, yet "only" 50% of possession...I don't want to use computer game for argument but even in those FM games if you wanted possession you had to press slow tempo button.
Even with Messi laziness our ball moves arround slow and controled, opposition IS ALWAYS 11 man behind ball. Just mathematically you can't have as much space as if you had less players behind the ball.
So, I agree we sometimes look so uninterested as team and could play faster but can we play fast enough and still die with ball in our possession?
I think football moves in periods, our style was something new at the time, with Pep as a perfectionist and one in a lifetime generationS (not one generation) who all shared same philosophy and were at their peak but now, now it's dynamic, fast moving football time.
We did just a little of that in our 2015 season and won everything. Sadly it was the team that just clicked rather than permanent change by LE.
Even with Messi laziness our ball moves arround slow and controled, opposition IS ALWAYS 11 man behind ball. Just mathematically you can't have as much space as if you had less players behind the ball.
So, I agree we sometimes look so uninterested as team and could play faster but can we play fast enough and still die with ball in our possession?
I think football moves in periods, our style was something new at the time, with Pep as a perfectionist and one in a lifetime generationS (not one generation) who all shared same philosophy and were at their peak but now, now it's dynamic, fast moving football time.
We did just a little of that in our 2015 season and won everything. Sadly it was the team that just clicked rather than permanent change by LE.
Devils
Senior Member
Our players simply lack the intensity, fitness and mentality to win this competition.
Klopp is taking a team that has Karius, Milner, Henderson and Lovren as starters to the CL final. No offence to these players, but they have never been anything more than just decent players.
It's always the same things said about our players:
1) Our players are too old, too slow.
2) X player isn't good enough we should sign Y player as a world class upgrade.
Yet 4 out of the past 5 years we've still gone out of the competition in the QFs.
How is it that Klopp can turn decent players like the ones mentioned above to dominant midfield players in such big games? How is it that Allegri can make a Juve team that has nearly half of its starters being 30 or above, run more and cover more distance than any other team in the CL? Same goes for Jupp who managed to revitalize a seemingly dead and way past it Bayern team.
Barca has a 'pussification' effect on players these days. Simply put they turn into pussies when they come to this club.
Klopp is taking a team that has Karius, Milner, Henderson and Lovren as starters to the CL final. No offence to these players, but they have never been anything more than just decent players.
It's always the same things said about our players:
1) Our players are too old, too slow.
2) X player isn't good enough we should sign Y player as a world class upgrade.
Yet 4 out of the past 5 years we've still gone out of the competition in the QFs.
How is it that Klopp can turn decent players like the ones mentioned above to dominant midfield players in such big games? How is it that Allegri can make a Juve team that has nearly half of its starters being 30 or above, run more and cover more distance than any other team in the CL? Same goes for Jupp who managed to revitalize a seemingly dead and way past it Bayern team.
Barca has a 'pussification' effect on players these days. Simply put they turn into pussies when they come to this club.
Neeraj
Senior Member
It's crazy how much more intense the general game is, as compared to our game. This slow pace works if you have a technically flawless system like we did under Pep. We have neither technical prowess, nor even average speed. It really comes down to speed, if you think about the most basic ingredient missing in our game. Our players just cannot match the intensity that other teams conjure up, for whatever reason.
Valverde is incompetent. He needs to go. BUT, along with that, there's an overhaul required at the club. Who will be the one to bring this overhaul? The next manager? Barto? Who?
Valverde is incompetent. He needs to go. BUT, along with that, there's an overhaul required at the club. Who will be the one to bring this overhaul? The next manager? Barto? Who?
serghei
Senior Member
It starts with the manager, and how well he takes pressure, because at Barca & Madrid pressure is through the roof. Guys like Klopp take no shit. They know what and how they want to play and they shape the team so that it plays exactly that brand of football. If you don't provide what he wants from you, you get benched.
At Barca it's different, we have brought in a number of managers who aren't the real deal so to speak. So that the influence of the players on the parameters of the game (speed, flexibility, workrate) doesn't seem to change much. It's harder for a manager to come in, take the reigns, and change everything. Simply put, the players have too much power at Barcelona and don't lend themselves completely to the manager. Partly because we also haven't brought in a real top class manager to inspire the squad. Lucho seemed to be that, but it lasted for about 8-10 months of the 3 years he was at the club. All of the ones we've hired post Pep had obvious big faults that were clear with time.
[MENTION=16751]Devils[/MENTION], intensity means will and hunger, because I don't think nutrition and training sessions aren't right. Of course, it also means planning the squad and rotating wisely so that players can physically apply the intensity on the field for a full game, or almost a full game (every intense team has moments in a match where they catch their breath a bit).
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ebc_99
Active member
Our players aren't pussies, what shit is this? Pussies don't don't win 3 titles in 4 years against Atletico and Real. And Messi is not the problem, he has dragged the team to the title this season and has been head and shoulders above every player in the world again. Valverde is the problem, If we brought in someone like Klopp then i reckon our fortunes would change immediately in the Champions League even without any new players.
serghei
Senior Member
But the issue for me is that everything is inter-related.
If you look at the picture I posted, you can't actually play fast when you set up like that. Roma's 3-5-2 allows them to have 2 extra midfielders. And all of those 5 were compact and went narrow. So you had 5 (!!) Roma players blocking our 3 players (for some reason Roberto did many runs off the ball to win headers vs Kolarov). If you play rigid (not allow players to vacate their positions and look for pockets of space) then it is impossible to find players to pass to, because everyone is man marked (and doubled in key areas). When you are man marked, you need to move. And if you move, your teammates need to adjust their position as well as to keep a compact shape.
We do not move enough of the ball, and we do not attack space. We play as if we have different players than we do.
Yes, Liverpool played long balls, but look what type of long balls they were. They were future position long balls, meaning you don't pass the ball to Salah so he can try to win a header vs Kolarov
lol. You'll fail and give away the ball. Before launching those long balls, the players in Liverpool's team (Firmino, Mane etc.) did many false runs, with the purpose of tricking Roma players as to clear the space where the long ball would've landed. Each long ball was actually played in space. Without those runs from the forwards, Kolarov is reading the long ball in time (vs Barca he didn't have anything to worry about since Suarez is 2m offside on the other side, and Messi is 10m offside). So that long ball becomes a stupid giveaway, since Roberto could win maybe 2/15 headers against Kolarov.Liverpool's long ball were part of some pretty advanced tactics of finding the free man, compared with what we did. Liverpool forwards drag Roma players out of position, then long ball is played in the hole, exactly in the position that is being vacated by the Roma defenders. Without making space to land those long balls in, there's no point in doing it considering Mane, Salah, and Firmino are 1.75m and Kolarov, Jesus and Fazio are over 1.85 (Fazio is 1.95).
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Devils
Senior Member
I can agree with this, but how is it that Barca players are unable to play without intensity in a QF of the CL? Not just this year, but look at 2013-2018. It's only 1 year (2015) that we were able to play these matches with intensity. It's pathetic really, we haven't gone down fighting in any of these matches, most of the times we are walking around on the pitch with our heads down while our opposition bossed us in overall play.
I believe these players have become too comfortable and I think our deluded management has allowed them to feel that way.
Look at Real Madrid, the CL is their priority, everything else is a distant second and third. The players, manager, president etc...all know it. Those Real players fight on that pitch as if their jobs depended on it...and you know what? Their jobs probably do depend on it. Perez in the past has made it clear that no matter who you are, you are expendable. They've shipped out starting players like Ozil, Di Maria, Khedira, Alonso, Casillas, James without any hesitation and replaced them with better. They fired Ancelotti who was beloved in the dressing room. Those kind of actions make a statement to any player coming in that they should not feel comfortable at that club or they will be replaced.
Barca would never do this. No offense, but our starting players like Suarez, Rakitic, Alba, Pique, Iniesta haven't been all that great in recent seasons. I very much doubt that any of these players feel like their starting positions are under threat or that their future at this club is questionable, at least not against their own terms.
Barca players have become wayyy to comfortable for me. Their attitude and lack of desire on the pitch shows this. Their are far too many players who think they are irreplaceable at this club that shouldn't feel that way. Unfortunately our board and manager have allowed them to feel that way.
Stoichkov1
New member
But the issue for me is that everything is inter-related.
If you look at the picture I posted, you can't actually play fast when you set up like that. Roma's 3-5-2 allows them to have 2 extra midfielders. And all of those 5 were compact and went narrow. So you had 5 (!!) Roma players blocking our 3 players (for some reason Roberto did many runs off the ball to win headers vs Kolarov). If you play rigid (not allow players to vacate their positions and look for pockets of space) then it is impossible to find players to pass to, because everyone is man marked (and doubled in key areas). When you are man marked, you need to move. And if you move, your teammates need to adjust their position as well as to keep a compact shape.
We do not move enough of the ball, and we do not attack space. We play as if we have different players than we do.
Yes, Liverpool played long balls, but look what type of long balls they were. They were future position long balls, meaning you don't pass the ball to Salah so he can try to win a header vs Kolarov
Liverpool's long ball were part of some pretty advanced tactics of finding the free man, compared with what we did. Liverpool forwards drag Roma players out of position, then long ball is played in the hole, exactly in the position that is being vacated by the Roma defenders. Without making space to land those long balls in, there's no point in doing it considering Mane, Salah, and Firmino are 1.75m and Kolarov, Jesus and Fazio are over 1.85 (Fazio is 1.95).
Do you expect Messi and Suarez to make runs behind the defenders when they're the players who run less kms in Europe?
Messi runs 8km per match and he walks for 90 mins.
Devils
Senior Member
Is it a coincidence to you that the last time we went down fighting in a CL tie (Chelsea 2012) was when we had a manager who didn't allow our players to be comfortable or complacent?
Bayern 2013- Steamrolled.
Atletico 2014- Outplayed
Atletico 2016- Outplayed
Juve 2017- Steamrolled.
Rome 2018- Steamrolled away
We have not gone down fighting in any of these ties. Over half of them were humiliation level! We let our opponents outplay us while our players walked around with their heads down looking hopeless, confused and lost. Barca were shell-shocked in all of these ties (in at least one game or both) that their opponents didn't fear them and were willing to take the game to them.
Sorry, but when it comes to the CL, FC Barcelona players have shown nothing but a pussy attitude. 2015 was the only exception, but 1/6 years since Pep isn't a good sign at all.
BarçaBarça
New member
One possible reason why Klopp and Allegri can do what they are doing: Their boards trust them and their fans are willing to give them time (not 1 single season) to prove themselves.
Fire Klopp after his first season at Liverpool and he would have finished below Southampton and West Ham and securing them NO European competition the following season. Add to that their loss in the final to Sevilla in Europa League and you can make the argument that they didn’t have the execution-power needed, mentality and so on. Yet now – 3 years later they have
Players don’t turn into pussies when they arrive at Barcelona, Coutinho, Paulinho and Semedo from this season has already shown that they can be decisive when needed. When you include players from other seasons as well there is no pattern – maybe even the opposite of what you are suggesting.
I partly agree here: Maybe players have too much influence in Barca. Valverde brought and implemented his own approach, though: defensive stability and individual brilliance in attack, and for this season it has been a huge success. Maybe if he gets some players he want he can shape the team and make us play more fluidly, but unless we want to be Real who only focus on CL (by having the best squad, many different tactical options and zero playing-identity) we also need to give the manager some time to shape the team.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
I don't think Real is the model club either. They essentially gamble the entire season on CL and it's panned out for them in recent seasons but not too long ago they were a circus who perennially came up short.
The starting point for me would be either 1) tactically sound, fearless and hungry manager in the mold of a guardiola in 08-09 or 2) someone experienced and proven in the mold of a jupp heynckes (i know we won't get him but just a reference point) who commands respect, even from superstars. Problem is neither of the 2 types are on the market...
The more extreme scenario I can think of is that we have seen the last of CL wins with the rijkaard and pep era stars and it will simply take a younger, more motivated generation of barca players (coutinho semedo dembele etc.) to hopefully mature and lead us to european glory. Irrespective of manager, if messi and suarez are gonna give opposition the courtesy of organizing themselves neatly into 2 banks of four on the counter, then we aren't winning another CL as long as they're starting.
[MENTION=22493]Stoichkov1[/MENTION], I love Messi, but he really has to change his approach in CL games. He needs like 3 high intensity performances in CL KO games to get us to the final, and if he isn't smart enough to prioritize and give 110% in 3 CL KO games (away), then I don't know what to say or how to defend him...
I hate to draw the comparison but CR7 figured this out in 2015 (when he and madrid fell flat v juve because of injuries and tiredness) and has basically stopped going all in on liga goals since then.
The starting point for me would be either 1) tactically sound, fearless and hungry manager in the mold of a guardiola in 08-09 or 2) someone experienced and proven in the mold of a jupp heynckes (i know we won't get him but just a reference point) who commands respect, even from superstars. Problem is neither of the 2 types are on the market...
The more extreme scenario I can think of is that we have seen the last of CL wins with the rijkaard and pep era stars and it will simply take a younger, more motivated generation of barca players (coutinho semedo dembele etc.) to hopefully mature and lead us to european glory. Irrespective of manager, if messi and suarez are gonna give opposition the courtesy of organizing themselves neatly into 2 banks of four on the counter, then we aren't winning another CL as long as they're starting.
[MENTION=22493]Stoichkov1[/MENTION], I love Messi, but he really has to change his approach in CL games. He needs like 3 high intensity performances in CL KO games to get us to the final, and if he isn't smart enough to prioritize and give 110% in 3 CL KO games (away), then I don't know what to say or how to defend him...
I hate to draw the comparison but CR7 figured this out in 2015 (when he and madrid fell flat v juve because of injuries and tiredness) and has basically stopped going all in on liga goals since then.
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