Ernesto Valverde - V1

henias

New member
I don't think Suarez can play as a LWF as he doesn't have speed or passing abilites for that. He should play exactly where he plays today. By moving him more to the left you would basically neutralize him completely. Messi as a "false 9" also would't work anymore since he likes to play much deeper these days. He is more second striker or even CAM without defensive responsibilities. If you want to play with false 9 Suarez can't be in starting 11. This is the reason I see 4-4-2 or even 4-2-3-1 a way better solution if you want to incorporate both Suarez and Messi.

I said this before and I will say it again. Team doesnt revolve around Messi and Suarez and 433 suit our possession play better. 442 has never been the solution, it looked incredibly shaky because you only have 8 players defending, most of them are not suited for pressing and covering huge areas on the pitch. 4231 is too rigid to enforce any possession style of play. Both of which are too narrow to break down defences.

The whole point of a false 9 is to drop deep. A CAM would restrict the free role of a false 9.

In any case, you just cannot take EV's 433 as a prime example because the setup is too lopsided and too many factors like poor rotation, fatigue can affect the outcome of the game. EV is supposed to inposed new ideas instead he reused Lucho's setup which already had problems and worse he doesnt know alot about attacking systems. That defeats the whole point of appointing a new manager.
 
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Richard.H

Senior Member
[MENTION=21632]TrueCule[/MENTION] many fans (including me) are not pleased at all because we can see the writing on the wall. Ask yourself, where will this club be if EV keeps playing Messi, Suarez, Raki, and Busi 90 mins each match (except CDR)? The future of this club doesn’t look good and 100 % of the blame of that is on EV. He doesn’t have the balls to integrate more youngsters. Artur is the only one.

He is also an absolute moron for throwing in youngsters at the worst of times (Malcom when we are tied with Inter who didn’t even sniff gametime for months, Munir when we are down vs Betis, etc.).

He also refuses to utilize the whole squad. I will get a lot of shit for this but I think Vidal should start over Raki or the very least be a rotation starter with him. He has the legs to cover for Roberto.

There are many other reasons, but I’m on mobile and at work.
 

xXKonan

Senior Member
Don't think the 4-2-3-1 would work with a Double Pivot of Busi-Rakitic.

It may look good on paper but asking these current versions of Rakitic and Busi to cover a shitload of ground while having Messi as a #10 is just asking for trouble. in one of the games this season we did switch to a 4-2-3-1, but the most worrying thing I've seen from that is that is the massive gap between both Rakitic-Busi and the Front four, it was big enough where the other team could easily overload the space left behind by the front four.
 

BarçaBarça

New member
3-4 against Betis was not good enough, although leaving Dembele out was the right decision.
Rakitic was awful, and needed to be subbed already during half time, imo, but Valverde was too slow.
It is games like that one that we need at least a point from, when shit hits the fan, and Messi actually made some magic.

Our defence need to be sorted out asap, I really hope Umtiti can make a difference when he returns fully. I don't mind playing with Messi & Suarez up front, until Coutinho is back or Dembele gets his shit together, if that means we don't concede FOUR goals against a midtable team!
 

MagIX

Senior Member
If you want to play with false 9 Suarez can't be in starting 11. This is the reason I see 4-4-2 or even 4-2-3-1 a way better solution if you want to incorporate both Suarez and Messi.

I agree.
It is not only a question to how incorporate Messi and Suarez...:

1) We bought Dembele and Coutinho for 300Mio: obviously they must be starters, it would be beyond ridiculous to pay such amounts and keep them on the bench.
2) Messi is the goat
3) Suarez is the only CF we have, and we have seen how he is important and decisive.

So, who do we leave on the bench, who do we have to sacrifice ? or how do we have to play to incorporate these players, so they can play together?
Which is the ideal 11s (without considering the obvious rotations for resting or for tactical reasons), considering the 3 mentionned points ?
IMO it is not possible to build a winning team by having these players play together.
 
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Raketa10

Senior Member
We all may have different ideas but we definitely need a new manager who will have a clear idea what to do with our squad since Valverde is absolutely lost. The only sure thing is that we are currently playing awful and that we are conceding goals like crazy.
 

George_Costanza

Active member
I don't think Suarez can play as a LWF since he doesn't have speed or passing abilites for that. He should play exactly where he plays today. By moving him more to the left you would basically neutralize him completely. Messi as a "false 9" also would't work anymore since he likes to play much deeper these days. He is more second striker or even CAM without defensive responsibilities. If you want to play with false 9 Suarez can't be in starting 11. This is the reason I see 4-4-2 or even 4-2-3-1 a way better solution if you want to incorporate both Suarez and Messi.

That being said I hate 4-4-2 but I as I said I don't belive 4-3-3 is possible with this squad. I hope they prove me wrong.

like [MENTION=22412]henias[/MENTION] explained here, and I already argued with BBZ before that EV don't know how to implement the 4-3-3 formation. The formation requires more offensive players in both attack and midfield. This wasn't the case with EV who prefer workhorses defensive-minded players such as Raki, Paulinho, Gomes. Either you attack and have ball possession on your opponent's half which you won't require so many defensive players and can switch to a 4-1-4-1 as the wide midfielders drop deeper to win the ball back. Conceding 18 times in 12 games because we are playing a formation/tactics that don't suit our players. Did we concede those goals playing mostly 4-3-3? No so not sure what's the point bringing it.
As for Suarez, he isn't as sharp as he used to be and you said it he doesn't have speed, so he should be used in a supporting role. Henry played CF all his career in Arsenal and played as floating left-winger (or inside forward is another description) when he moved to Barcelona at the age of 31.
The biggest issue for me isn't Suarez or Pique. Its Busquets who is critical for the success of 4-3-3 formation, and arguably what Pep missed mostly in Bayern. Busquets lost some pace and his performance has been average to below average so far. When he is in sync, we dominate any midfield. Very difficult to replace and I have hopes that Frankie De Jong as his replacement
 

jairzinho

Senior Member
There is no way on earth 4-3-3 can function with our current squad. We should move away from that idea ASAP! We are conceding goals like crazy and this needs to stop! We should go back to 4-4-2 or try 4-2-3-1 but 4-3-3 is something impossible right now! To be fair that 4-4-2 can easily be transformed to 4-2-3-1 and you can't do that with 4-3-3 formation.

Some of you are blind if you believe 4-3-3 is the way to go! If conceding 18 times in 12 games is not enough for you than I honestly don't know what is?! I don't know where to start with 4-3-3 problems but let's emphasize some major problems in that formation:

- We don't have a RW in 4-3-3 since Messi is basically playing free-role so it's like playing asymmetrical 4-3-1-2 system where right side is empty!
- Coutinho is not a classical left winger he is more AM/LM so he can not perform well in that position.
- Malcom is better on the right side while he can ONLY play on the left in 4-3-3 formation since Messi is playing on the right (although he isn't).
- Dembele is still losing too many balls and is still too week in defense.
- We don't have a proper RB for 4-3-3 since Roberto is bad in defense and Semede is ineffective in attack not to mention Pique is also too old and too reckless for 4-3-3 these days.
- Our midfielders are to slow with and without the ball, maybe Arthur isn't but he is still to inexperienced to take the main role this season.
- None of our midfielders apart from Busi is suitable for 4-3-3. So should we stick to 4-3-3 ONLY because it suits Busi more than others??? To be fair he is the only player from our starting 11 together with Alba who is suitable for 4-3-3.

Some of you should also stop with that stupid idea to bench Suarez and put Messi in the middle since Messi is definitely not a CF and we would be totally ineffective against stronger teams. Barca needs Suarez whether you like it or not. We have played our best football this year against Real, Inter and Tottenham where we didn't play our usual 4-3-3. So It's not about Dembele or Malcom or Messi or Busi it's about the system which is not suitable for our current squad! YOU SHOULD CHOOSE FORMATION BASED ON THE PLAYERS YOU HAVE AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!

I am sure that Pep or any other world class manager wouldn't play classical 4-3-3 formation with our current squad. No way in hell!


Some points:

I agree with you about the weaknesses of the 4-3-3. It's a messy situation.

But the shape is not the only reason we suck at defending.

Individually in 1v1s and collectively in a zone we cannot defend. I said before we have problems dealing with the movement of the opponent,
especially when runners burst through our lines and attack the box in open play or on the counter.

You yourself pointed out some of the reasons aswell.

Bob cannot defend for shit. I tried finding a heat map for the last game but i'm sure it would show how much Betis targeted out right side to take advantage of that.

Another of your points: "Our midfielders are to slow with and without the ball". This just makes it worse, especially when we are caught high up the pitch
and expect turtles like Bob and Raki to attempt to stop a rapid counter.

Busi is also turtle slow and has problems covering the empty spaces, not to mention Pique. So you see how bad we are on the right side.

Raki and Busi are getting older, slower and the mileage they've had so far, we're going to be in deep shit come February/March.

So again i would say, the shape can only fix so much, when we are slow, clumsy and have guys like Bob who are just really bad at defending against anyone.

Ernie has to take alot of the blame in all of this.

If you love Bob so much, teach him to defend properly for f's sake.

His handling of Raki's and Busquets mileage is going to haunt us in the latter stages of the season. He's spinting in a marathon and Madrid is only four points behind. Lol.
 

Barcilliant

Senior Member
This Graham Hunter article is excellent.

http://www.espn.com.au/soccer/club/...sing-the-tactics-that-made-modern-barca-great


There is a clear culture of complacency with the senior players and a huge degree of insecurity with the youngsters. Senior players can do whatever they want and get away with it while the newer players have one bad game and get dropped.

This is a toxic cocktail and is the reason we'll fuck up again this season in the cl.

Valverde is all wrong for this club.
 

soul24rage

Senior Member
This Graham Hunter article is excellent.

http://www.espn.com.au/soccer/club/...sing-the-tactics-that-made-modern-barca-great


There is a clear culture of complacency with the senior players and a huge degree of insecurity with the youngsters. Senior players can do whatever they want and get away with it while the newer players have one bad game and get dropped.

This is a toxic cocktail and is the reason we'll fuck up again this season in the cl.

Valverde is all wrong for this club.

great article and I'm sure complacency is part of it. But I think that lack of rest is the major issue of it. If you are not 100% physically wise then you won't have as much passion and are more likely to be mentally worn out and become "lazier". Their legs are not fresh enough to make the runs that would mark the Betis players. It's because of this lack of rotation that I don't think we won't win the CL and maybe La Liga.
 

xXKonan

Senior Member
giphy-downsized-large.gif


This is what summed up the Midfield vs Betis when it came to defending.

"Problem? Nah lets someone else deal with that"
 

Sultan

Nosce te ipsum
Coming into the season i was so confident in the depth our Squad, specially in Midfield. I still can't truly comprehend how this guy screwed things up this badly.

Isn't it fair to say had any of the Madrid teams started the season well, this guy would've been out by now?
 

George_Costanza

Active member
This Graham Hunter article is excellent.

http://www.espn.com.au/soccer/club/...sing-the-tactics-that-made-modern-barca-great


There is a clear culture of complacency with the senior players and a huge degree of insecurity with the youngsters. Senior players can do whatever they want and get away with it while the newer players have one bad game and get dropped.

This is a toxic cocktail and is the reason we'll fuck up again this season in the cl.

Valverde is all wrong for this club.

This article should be a sticky in EV's thread.

That Guardiola's quote: He told a group of players, Gerard Pique and Leo Messi among them, "I can forgive you a misplaced pass. I can forgive you a missed penalty. We're all human. The one thing I'll never forgive you for is if you don't run." :(
 

clemente

New member
We will sweat a 2-1 against Atletico with them missing 10 clear sitters and mods will change his name back to Ernesto.
 

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