Ernesto Valverde - V1

Gaudi

Senior Member
I hope I'm wrong but I'm not one of those who believe that Rakitić simply lost it over a year period or things like that. Yes, Iniesta is on a decline, but I see same Rakiric now and then. I believe it's the way we play, in second part of treble season we played faster, more direct football, even used counters. I trully believed LE changed that for good but Barca kind of a retreated back to safety. We simply play statical, slow, postional football and many of our current player are simply not build for that. Look the difference im RM way of playing and ours, but we seem to forget that Xavi is gone and Iniesta is close.
I find it interesting that we still outposses big teams even though many will argue that, for example, RM midfield is a lot better than ours. When you play statical football (You need only to move to get the ball, but ball always comes to your feet not in to the space) you can control possesion, but this is useless possesion with this setup. This is way we always depend on individual magic and we lost one of that magician now (Neymar, no matter he's flaws). This is way Deulo looked like lost cow couple of days ago. No, he is probably not starting material but he is not that bad that he can't pass a simple ball. It's just he can't and never will be able to play magical moves in slow, positional attack.
Rakitic was never fast, never good dribbler (because he lacked acceleration and speed), this is not something new, he was the same in 2015. But when he gets the ball in to the feet, and entire, for example, RM squad is behind the ball he can't create dribbling surplus, so he passes back or sideways. On the other hand noone plays like that. Again RM for example, but they have great midfield, but they don't hog the ball rather quick couple of passings and someone is rushing through or charging our defense. Good midfielder sees that moment and knows exactly when to pass. It's difficult technically of course but simple in tactical terms.
My point is neither Kroos became much better player in 2 years neither Rakitic much worse. If it was other way arround I'm betting we would criticise Kroos now. Same would be with Kovacic. Isco would be the only one that would really impact our midfield because he's is wizzard as well.
To conclude I'm, not saying we don't need reinforcements but I would like to see Valverde changing this slow statical football and realizing those days are gone. We don't have very top midfield anymore, true, but put Messi, Suarez and Busi in any mediocre team and that team with right coaching becomes contander.
 

Gaudi

Senior Member
When have we ever won with slow statical play?

Under PEP we were always Mobile

Pep years are gone with Xavi and Iniesta, yes even his style was worked out at the end because team learned to put boddies behind and defend a zone, not a player. But we could masked it with magical moves.
But after Pep's era we are playing more and more statical but with much worse players for that to work.
My point is that I don't think buying Dembele and Coutinho we'll change everything, I especially fear for Dembele in current setup.
 

Ocelot

New member
................................Ter Stegen
Semedo.........Pique...................Umtiti..........Alba
Dembele.....Busquets...........Paulinho.........Coutinho
..................................Messi.......................................
..................................Suarez.......................................


Coutinho as an LM is waste of talent and money
 

serghei

Senior Member
I hope I'm wrong but I'm not one of those who believe that Rakitić simply lost it over a year period or things like that. Yes, Iniesta is on a decline, but I see same Rakiric now and then. I believe it's the way we play, in second part of treble season we played faster, more direct football, even used counters. I trully believed LE changed that for good but Barca kind of a retreated back to safety. We simply play statical, slow, postional football and many of our current player are simply not build for that. Look the difference im RM way of playing and ours, but we seem to forget that Xavi is gone and Iniesta is close.
I find it interesting that we still outposses big teams even though many will argue that, for example, RM midfield is a lot better than ours. When you play statical football (You need only to move to get the ball, but ball always comes to your feet not in to the space) you can control possesion, but this is useless possesion with this setup. This is way we always depend on individual magic and we lost one of that magician now (Neymar, no matter he's flaws). This is way Deulo looked like lost cow couple of days ago. No, he is probably not starting material but he is not that bad that he can't pass a simple ball. It's just he can't and never will be able to play magical moves in slow, positional attack.
Rakitic was never fast, never good dribbler (because he lacked acceleration and speed), this is not something new, he was the same in 2015. But when he gets the ball in to the feet, and entire, for example, RM squad is behind the ball he can't create dribbling surplus, so he passes back or sideways. On the other hand noone plays like that. Again RM for example, but they have great midfield, but they don't hog the ball rather quick couple of passings and someone is rushing through or charging our defense. Good midfielder sees that moment and knows exactly when to pass. It's difficult technically of course but simple in tactical terms.
My point is neither Kroos became much better player in 2 years neither Rakitic much worse. If it was other way arround I'm betting we would criticise Kroos now. Same would be with Kovacic. Isco would be the only one that would really impact our midfield because he's is wizzard as well.
To conclude I'm, not saying we don't need reinforcements but I would like to see Valverde changing this slow statical football and realizing those days are gone. We don't have very top midfield anymore, true, but put Messi, Suarez and Busi in any mediocre team and that team with right coaching becomes contander.

Very much agree with this. I can only explain it one way. Back in the day, we had a kind of arrogance (in a good way) to play how we wanted without even thinking about the opponent. We played our game and everyone else adapted to it. Now, we play reactive. The style hasn't been the same, it was altered by the managers we had who stopped playing the Baca way. We play too reactive. We defend not trying to stop the danger from happening, but thinking that the danger will happen anyway. This is not proactive defending. This is old school defending and it doesn't suit us one bit.

Go all in with our style. The purpose is to stop the other team from creating chances, not to buy defenders that can block chances when they are already in a dangerous phase. The only way you can play aggresive is to look at pressing as a key element. Pressing is key to all of this, it's a must have in our game. It is the only form of aggressive defending that suits our style.

There was nothing aggressive about how we played in the 1-3 from several days ago. We allowed Madrid to create chances, and then we were bad at stopping those chances once they managed to get top players in 1 vs 1 positions. The key is not to blame Pique from being outclassed in a 1 vs 1 with Ronaldo, but making sure a 1 vs 1 between Ronaldo and Pique doesn't happen.
 
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Barcilliant

Senior Member
Very much agree with this. I can only explain it one way. Back in the day, we had a kind of arrogance (in a good way) to play how we wanted without even thinking about the opponent. We played our game and everyone else adapted to it. Now, we play reactive. The style hasn't been the same, it was altered by the managers we had who stopped playing the Baca way. We play too reactive. We defend not trying to stop the danger from happening, but thinking that the danger will happen anyway. This is not proactive defending. This is old school defending and it doesn't suit us one bit.

Go all in with our style. The purpose is to stop the other team from creating chances, not to buy defenders that can block chances when they are already in a dangerous phase. The only way you can play aggresive is to look at pressing as a key element. Pressing is key to all of this, it's a must have in our game. It is the only form of aggressive defending that suits our style.

There was nothing aggressive about how we played in the 1-3 from several days ago.

The spine, the greats of our team are all 30 or close to it. How the hell are you going to make them press aggressively?!! They can do it for brief periods in the match but not like before. THIS IS NOT 2009!!

If you want that style you need young, hungry players with great skill and game intelligence.

At the moment we are going the Milan way. We have great players but they're getting old. Some tough decisions need to be made. The earlier the better.

I'd give Suarez one last season as a starter and see how he performs. If he's not up to it. Bench or sell.

Time to be ruthless.

Fuck Valverde is such an uninspiring manager. He seems to have no character at all.
 

Gaudi

Senior Member
I also agree about Pique, when I read day after: woow how bad defender Pique is and similar, I know those people know nothing about football. All defenders are taller yet slower and less agile than quick attackers, you can't defend 1 vs 1 entire game and hope defender will win 10/10 of those duels. If Pique played anywhere else we would drool for him and offer 50+ millions to get him. There is no defense in this wolrd that can stop 1 vs 1 for 90 mins. Imagine Messi having ten 1 vs 1 every game...how much would he score?
We defend bad, not as a unit.

I don't even think we can or even should do high pressing anymore, but pressing on our half. Form compact lines on OUR half and then press. This requires less energy than chasing all arround the field, also you are less prone to mistakes and you can counter quickly by sucking in opposition.
Problem is we do neither, we neither press high up the field neither form compact line (actually we did for a while in first half)...last 2 RM goals were almost funny for top club to recieve. We lost the ball in their box and allowed counter from there. This is funny, this is quite afwull tactical approach. Zidane had one of those as well, during last Classico at Bernabeu, we scored in stoppage time and they pressed us badly with one player short. Awfull tactical error and they payed with a goal.
Problem is our attacking setup is as worrying as our defending setup. Very rarely do we pass a ball to the space, actually only when Messi does some magic step, looses couple of guards and that releases Alba on the left. Then look at attacks from basically all other teams, completly different. Under Pep we played slow possesion but mixed with quick and sudden penetrations. We basically used slow build up to calm the opposition and the sudden strike. Nowdays we lost that quick thinking but kept slow possesion. It's easy to defend against us. Imagine this without Messi?
This is way we are (still) the only big team that can win against everyone but can lose big as well. We became frustrated and goals starts to leak. I can't see RM maybe coming back from 4:0 but I can't see them losing 4:0 as well.
This is similar to Serghei "reaction" claim...sometimes we look on fire, we look relaxed or like against PSG we play complete assault, sometimes we "react" good, but that is no system. To be precise even a monkey could have coached Barca in return leg against PSG. Tactics out of window and just puuuuush through.

I'm really scared that Dembele will look out of depth with us, he is fast, penetrating attacker...we play completely different.
I want coach who'll address that and fixed that...even by saying screw this Barca DNA thing, after all if you want Barca DNA kind of play than start scouting best young talents for La Masia. If you buy me Paulinho than allow me to use it as best as I can.
 

serghei

Senior Member
The spine, the greats of our team are all 30 or close to it. How the hell are you going to make them press aggressively?!! They can do it for brief periods in the match but not like before. THIS IS NOT 2009!!

If you want that style you need young, hungry players with great skill and game intelligence.

At the moment we are going the Milan way. We have great players but they're getting old. Some tough decisions need to be made. The earlier the better.

I'd give Suarez one last season as a starter and see how he performs. If he's not up to it. Bench or sell.

Time to be ruthless.

Fuck Valverde is such an uninspiring manager. He seems to have no character at all.

Then we need to sign fresh legs, the likes of Dembele and Coutinho. I'd been advocating for that all summer.

Valverde has all my trust at the moment. Judging by his Bilbao stint, he clearly values pressing. Style wise, he has a lot in common with Barca style. One game and people are already doubting him. I find that laughable tbh.

I also agree about Pique, when I read day after: woow how bad defender Pique is and similar, I know those people know nothing about football. All defenders are taller yet slower and less agile than quick attackers, you can't defend 1 vs 1 entire game and hope defender will win 10/10 of those duels. If Pique played anywhere else we would drool for him and offer 50+ millions to get him. There is no defense in this wolrd that can stop 1 vs 1 for 90 mins. Imagine Messi having ten 1 vs 1 every game...how much would he score?
We defend bad, not as a unit.

I don't even think we can or even should do high pressing anymore, but pressing on our half. Form compact lines on OUR half and then press. This requires less energy than chasing all arround the field, also you are less prone to mistakes and you can counter quickly by sucking in opposition.
Problem is we do neither, we neither press high up the field neither form compact line (actually we did for a while in first half)...last 2 RM goals were almost funny for top club to recieve. We lost the ball in their box and allowed counter from there. This is funny, this is quite afwull tactical approach. Zidane had one of those as well, during last Classico at Bernabeu, we scored in stoppage time and they pressed us badly with one player short. Awfull tactical error and they payed with a goal.
Problem is our attacking setup is as worrying as our defending setup. Very rarely do we pass a ball to the space, actually only when Messi does some magic step, looses couple of guards and that releases Alba on the left. Then look at attacks from basically all other teams, completly different. Under Pep we played slow possesion but mixed with quick and sudden penetrations. We basically used slow build up to calm the opposition and the sudden strike. Nowdays we lost that quick thinking but kept slow possesion. It's easy to defend against us. Imagine this without Messi?
This is way we are (still) the only big team that can win against everyone but can lose big as well. We became frustrated and goals starts to leak. I can't see RM maybe coming back from 4:0 but I can't see them losing 4:0 as well.
This is similar to Serghei "reaction" claim...sometimes we look on fire, we look relaxed or like against PSG we play complete assault, sometimes we "react" good, but that is no system. To be precise even a monkey could have coached Barca in return leg against PSG. Tactics out of window and just puuuuush through.

I'm really scared that Dembele will look out of depth with us, he is fast, penetrating attacker...we play completely different.
I want coach who'll address that and fixed that...even by saying screw this Barca DNA thing, after all if you want Barca DNA kind of play than start scouting best young talents for La Masia. If you buy me Paulinho than allow me to use it as best as I can.

No one defender can deal with the likes of Messi, Ronaldo or Neymar on his own in a 1 vs 1 duel. The attacker has the initiative and he will make a decisive move if left in 1 vs 1 scenario. Vidal had plenty of time to double team Pique in the 2-1 goal, but didn't because he is a poor defender. Not poor as in not having the ability to defend (ability is different than knowledge), but also poor as in not having any knowledge about what makes a good defender. It's almost like if you put Suarez at RB. He would play about the same as Vidal. In fact, Suarez could even be a better RB than Vidal due to his aggression on the pitch.

Pressing is not to be understood as only pressing the back 4 of the other team. Pressing is very important at making sure that the opponent does not have time to pick up the best options when in important positions. If Isco, or Modric for example receives in the middle of the park and is not pressed fast, and he has time to pick up a pass, 90/100 times he will pick up the right pass for their team because they are skilled playmakers. And the defending team then sees a medium-risk situation turning into a high-risk situation, and this just because they didn't press Madrid's playmakers. Pressing imo means not allowing your opponent to pick the right options, a thing which will happen if we leave them in space and try to block whatever pass they will make. We do not have the defenders to stop the danger once it gets past a certain point. So if the idea is to sign defenders so they can tackle the Madrid players, that's not a solution and it can lead to some disasters, as well as more negativity and more reactivity from us, which is not what is needed or even wanted by most fans.

So, I refer to pressing as stressing the opponent. Stress is trouble for the man in possession. The more stressed he is, the more pressure he has on him, the less likely it is form him to make the righ choice. Gomes for example is a player who gets stressed very fast, without the opponent doing much. His own lack of confidence is the stress trigger. But Isco, or Kroos, or Modric, won't get stressed, they are much too confident to get stressed unless there are plenty of reasons to get stressed, if you know what I mean. It doesn't mean that they will not make mistakes if pressured. But it means that they will sit on the ball if they don't have a reason to make a fast choice. The faster they have to think, the more susceptible they are to making mistakes. The more mistakes they make, the worse it is for their team, to the point that their teammates will even think twice before passing to them.

To sum it up, imo, it is not possible for us at this point to form a better reactive team that this Madrid side. Not possible. If we set up to play counter attack, we will be 2nd in Spain for a lot of years. What we need to be doing is play our style. At every cost.

Our style of play is what we have that is most valuable and special. People became Barca fans not because we have made the treble or whatever. But because we played a special brand of football, one that big teams such as Bayern and City tried to copy. It's time for us to assume that style at every cost.

If a 700m. euros a year team can't afford to play what style of football they want to play, then it means that team is ran by purely incompetent people, that should be fired on the spot. But the reality is that many Barca fans see in Cruyff and his total football philosophy an enemy.
 
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Gaudi

Senior Member
[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION], i don't mind our style but i don't agree that our style is slow possesion football to the feet. Problem is, i think many coches seems to think this is our style. I would try ANYTHING different than slow passing and wait for Messi magic, it would maybe work if we had two Messis, one to start magic move other to finish. We won't be competetive in any competition with that gameplay.
 

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION], i don't mind our style but i don't agree that our style is slow possesion football to the feet. Problem is, i think many coches seems to think this is our style. I would try ANYTHING different than slow passing and wait for Messi magic, it would maybe work if we had two Messis, one to start magic move other to finish. We won't be competetive in any competition with that gameplay.

Positional play isn't supposed to be slow. It's slow when the players are not as motivated and the tactics not as good. Our positional play looks slow a lot of times because it is not done right. It's only when you combine positional play with speed, short passes, and fluidity that you generate a lot of chances to score with this style.

What we should be playing imo is juego de posicion. Cruyff's totaalvoetbal philosophy. With speed and aggresiveness. Highly proactive, bring the game to the opponent not the other way around. That is not going to happen unless we make 'passing', 'vision', 'hight football IQ' the 3 most important characteristics when signing and promoting players.

Valverde can make us play a less radicalized, slightly more rigid version of Pep's juego de posicion. Not as mobile as Pep's style of course, or as spectacular, but a lot more fluid that Lucho's stiff approach to player movement and man oriented marking.
 
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kattanib

Well-known member
He seems way to relaxed .. not the type of personality we need.

Zidane gave focus to a hungry angry Madrid. We need someone who can give us fire and hunger for we are full and fat
 

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