Ernesto Valverde

Sorin

Well-known member
I appreciate you are care much about me to see what I do, but I've actually posted many times here and elsewhere. One was yesterday btw.

With that being said, I am not sure who do you think yourself to tell people who should post and who shouldn't. As far as I know Bojan is the owner and admin of this forum and he didn't put any rule that one should only post if he likes or dislikes someone.



That is inaccurate. Pep was forced to deal with Eto despite him asking pulicaly to sell him.Board made a decision about Deco and R10 too.
Pep had a president who is willing to give that power, no manager can get it if the club administration won't, look at Conte, Mourinho among others who failed to do so.
Pep next year forced his will on the club and we ended up with Chygrynskiy and Ibra. Later he failed to do so with next board

You are deflecting. You begin with "this is inaccurate" and continue with him dealing with Etoo for some reason when I didn't even bring up Etoo. What does this have to do with anything I said?

Anyway, besides the fact every manager makes mistakes and Pep did indeed fuck up with Ibra and Chygrinsky it is again besides the point. If we want to compare who did better between Valverde and Pep in all aspects then it's a goddamn massacre. So it's better we stop here because this is not the hill you want to die on and you know it.

Nothing I've said is innacurate. Especially what I said about Ronaldinho and Deco. He put conditions when he met up with Laporta and one was to get rid of these 2.
 

Potroh

New member
One day people will realize that just giving players minutes they aren't ready for isn't the recipe for improving.

and

And we all call EV being a defensive coach, do you think a defensive coach would want a thin defensive line? He asked for a CB in his 1st year and board refused, he asked for back LB next year and board refused too.

You seem to be belonging to the category of typical fans, who think in terms of player vs coach relations, just as if it would be the 1920's or 1930's in football.
- You are tall, you will be the center-back - said the coach back then, while constantly touching and setting his brand new cap.
- You are fast, you will be the winger - he said and cheerfully looked at his brand new watch.
- You can bang it hard, so you will be a forward - he said, and was very sure of himself.

More or less that was coaching 100 years ago.
But this has changed considerably in a couple of decades and the roles have changed, the coach became the strategist, and good players can play very differently according to the given strategy, the honorable coach has worked out by watching endless quantity of games of his players. He knows or should know the advantages and disadvantages of all of his players, he should know their mentalities, souls, bodies, he should even spy on them covertly to learn more about their lives, etc.

You (and many others) speak as if strategies and tactics were summed up in the mere chess-game of how to setup the team for the next game, or who should take a rest, which also changes the strategy, the tactical scenario.
You talk about players being bad, being shit, but you do that absolutely out of the context of the coach and the strategy itself.

EV is NOT a defensive coach, not even defense-oriented as such, he is simply a coach without the hint of a strategy.
His defensive line is the very same as it used to be before his time, all he did was even trusting more on Roberto as a RB, his midfield strategy is a complete disaster, his attacking formation remained the same - apart from playing a 4-4-2 (or a pseudo-4-3-3) - so the left winger plays an almost undefined midfield role, he is not in the back but neither is in front, he is floating in a no-mans-territory, waiting the left back to be freed up and run up and down like a kangaroo.
The goat-Messi is on the right (just theoretically because actually he isn't), so there's no right wing whatsoever.
In the middle up there, there is Suarez, who tries to pass to Messi, but his legs encounter each other and he falls down and protests. When he doesn't, he is usually offside, because his speed needs that 40 cm of allowance to lose 4 meters in a 20 meters runs, so there is Messi, who either tries to dribble through 5 defenders, or passes a long ball to Alba, who will pass it back to him, if it comes through.

These are EV's strategies.
No changes whatsoever, nothing specifically worked out depending on the opponent, no tactics - apart from certain players being played. "We are Barca" - says the wise coach with the powerlessly cucumber face - "they have to find the antidote against our own style" - so we just play our own game - he says.
- "It will be a very difficult game" - the cucumber says, when playing a training match against a 3rd tier Albanian team with the entire defense of theirs in crutches.
- "I am very proud of the players", "we knew how to deal with the situation" - he admits to the press (who already know each word he is going to say) after a game having been won.
- "It is what it is" - he melancholiacly tells the world when the otherwise unbeatable team is losing a game or plays horribly.

More or less that is his repertoire.
Tactically even less than that.

You say he asked for a CB. Actually he got 3 of them (including Mina, Marlon, Murillo), none of them were given any chances, so all you do is to bring up the venerability of the board.
He did not need Malcom, but loved Rafinha when he was without crutches, wanted Paulinho, Boateng and A.Vidal, because these are the utility players he loves to work with.

You may put up the question: how many tactical instructions EV gave to Messi, Suarez or Piquet in three years? Although I don't know the answer and I'm just guessing, but probably the one million bucks answer is: ZERO. "Solve it guys" - he thinks and says - and the players know that he is the weakest variable of the equation, so they act accordingly, by paying attention to their contracts, condom-adds on TV, and preferably having training sessions where they just have to run the minimal amount.

So you talk about the PLAYERS, as if they would be independent of EV's non-existing strategies, simply grading or rating them as being good, bad or shit.
This is the A-TYPICAL mentality, when someone "can't see the forest for the trees", so bashes and bashes the players individually, simply because it is easier that looking at the lack of strategies.

The board wanted Neymar later, and surely they weren't planning to put Griezmann on the bench. So what was the plan there?
Neymar Griezmann Messi? That could have worked (ignoring injury issues, wages etc)

The board never wanted Neymar back, nothing is more obvious than that and Griezmann's purchase was a huge mistake.

There is a lack of planning in this squad. I don't know how much say EV in those decisions.

Planning ahead is single-handedly the task of the coach, manager of the entire coaching department.
If the coach can't manage the players, it is bad.
If the coach can't manage the board, it is equally bad. One should undertake the task only if his wishes are fulfilled and supported. If not, he should resign immediately.

Just as some others try, you also hesitate about EV's role in the present and forthcoming saga, although the incumbency is only his.
No mitigating circumstances exist IF the team plays as it plays, absolutely independently from the actual points and results.

EV inherited a team which played quite nicely, apart from certain crucial games.
Two and a half years later, the very same team plays unwatchable football, apart from individual greatness, and the responsibility is is nowhere else but on EV's low to mediocre qualities.
 

Havesaks

Senior Member
So now it's about how Valverde can't manage the board? What the fuck am I reading? People stop making sense in here.

Don't they get that Suarez is still our best striker? That Griezmann plays best as supporting striker, which basically means Messis position nowadays. That there isnt a better partnership than Lenglet Pique in our squad. There is only so much a manager can do. Last year Valverde was critizised for our midfield when it's now obvious that our midfield players just werent good enough, Roberto, vidal, Sergio, Rakitic, injuriedarthur, paulinho, Denis, gomes...

The problem has been transfers and squadplanning ergo sport direction /board. On that EV has minimal influence on.
 
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khaled_a_d

Senior Member
You seem to be belonging to the category of typical fans, who think in terms of player vs coach relations, just as if it would be the 1920's or 1930's in football.

And some bs that I've literally said the opposite during the past half decade

I would hope you start reading what I've said. And stop lecturing people in this BBZ manner.
You are making things up that I didn't said. And you fail to see a lot about EV.
He has his own tactics actually, some of them are very clear tbh and more simple than others. He changed them many times. If anything I hate about him is that he changes according to criticism rather than sticking to his own ideas.
I understand what tactics is, I talked about it here zillions of times. I would advice you to read more before making such claims.
And the board sat with PSG on negotiating table, if you think they didn't want him that is your problem and it is really not worth discussion. Though there were probably many who vetoed bringing him back

Planning ahead is single-handedly the task of the coach, manager of the entire coaching department.

That has been a proven lie time after another.
Sporting Directors are paid highly to do so. Letting manager do that is a recipe for disaster and most boards won't do that. There is a reason there is a whole scouting department.
Txiki himself said it during his time here, I am the one who chose who to sign not the coach. Sure that was during Rijkaard era and he was more flexible with his friend Pep, and because he had more support from Laporta (thanks to Crujif and the crisis we had prior) but that shows how things are managed.
Conte was fired twice because of the thing you said.
No board are mad enough to put the whole management for a coach.
And the board are the one in power, they are the one who gives the authority, it isn't the coach who takes it. Coaches can define team needs, but it is up to the board to give it to him.
If every coach refused that, we won't have any coach accepting any role.

You say he asked for a CB. Actually he got 3 of them (including Mina, Marlon, Murillo), none of them were given any chances, so all you do is to bring up the venerability of the board.

We already know that 3 times EV wasn't handed a player he wanted. CB in summer of 2017 (Mina was signed due to Mascherano leaving),Willian and a back up LB in 2018
Twice he was proven right, and 3rd time it was proven that Abidal choice was awful and bad fit.
Mina was given enough opportunity for his level of talent for a player signed for half a year. We got a bargain for him and we sold. Marlon wasn't good either and we got a good deal for him and he was moved rightfully.


EV inherited a team which played quite nicely, apart from certain crucial games.
Two and a half years later, the very same team plays unwatchable football, apart from individual greatness, and the responsibility is is nowhere else but on EV's low to mediocre qualities.

EV inherited a team that its only 2 outfield good players who are Under 28 years old players. One was out(Neymar) or shit (Umtiti) in less than a year. The remaining 7 starters he had was 3 30 years old players, 2 29 , one 33 and one 28. The remaining starter was Roberto.
And everyone thought that team was done after summer of 2017 btw.


You are deflecting. You begin with "this is inaccurate" and continue with him dealing with Etoo for some reason when I didn't even bring up Etoo. What does this have to do with anything I said?

Anyway, besides the fact every manager makes mistakes and Pep did indeed fuck up with Ibra and Chygrinsky it is again besides the point. If we want to compare who did better between Valverde and Pep in all aspects then it's a goddamn massacre. So it's better we stop here because this is not the hill you want to die on and you know it.

Nothing I've said is inaccurate. Especially what I said about Ronaldinho and Deco. He put conditions when he met up with Laporta and one was to get rid of these 2.

It has everything to do with what you are saying. You are claiming it is his job and giving examples of certain players, but you ignore a player that completely contradict with what you are saying.
Pep wanted Eto out, board told him no and deal with it. He could do nothing about it.
Next year, he forced his will using contract negotiations, but failed to do so with next board.
The power is given to the coach. He doesn't just take it.


Whole lot of good points here lately. Couch managers like us can identify a bunch of problems both on and off the pitch.

I believe, or at least hope, that the club management knows about these issues. The reason of them persisting is because we don't have somebody in the club who can find solutions to these problems.
The tactical problems can't be solved by Valverde, and the sacking/replacing of Valverde can't be solved by the current board because they have no idea who can do a better job.

Identifying problems is easy, the gold is struck by solving them.

+1
What I liked about Bartou first year is that he has given Zubi full authority, let him and Lucho do there things.
After that, he started to intervene and he lacks the understanding to do so. Since he took over in 2014 we had Zubi,Braide (along 3 others), Roberto, Abidal acting as SD. And there was Segura who no one knew what he is doing. He didn't know who to trust with football matters and who to hire.
 
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Riordon

New member
Valverde is not a great coach but he is better than lots of cules make him to be. Here is better but on Twitter it’s really embarrassing to see the stuff about him

What we need to rebuild:

) First within 1-2 years get rid of al Club de Amigos. Start on a blank page. Including Messi, no point in getting a new coach if he can’t play his tactic.

) get a proper coach and sporting department and let them buy players to fit their system. Enough of former players as directors. No Abidal, no Puyol. Give me professionals, stats nerds combined with great scouts. Liverpool’s and City’s setup in this regard is simply fantastic.

Im grateful for Messi and all he has done but should leave summer 2021, best for everybody. Need a new mentality at the club. But like when Pep sold ronaldinho and Eto’o.
 
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Havesaks

Senior Member
I would hope you start reading what I've said. And stop lecturing people in this BBZ manner.
You are making things up that I didn't said. And you fail to see a lot about EV.
He has his own tactics actually, some of them are very clear tbh and more simple than others. He changed them many times. If anything I hate about him is that he changes according to criticism rather than sticking to his own ideas.
I understand what tactics is, I talked about it here zillions of times. I would advice you to read more before making such claims.
And the board sat with PSG on negotiating table, if you think they didn't want him that is your problem and it is really not worth discussion. Though there were probably many who vetoed bringing him back



That has been a proven lie time after another.
Sporting Directors are paid highly to do so. Letting manager do that is a recipe for disaster and most boards won't do that. There is a reason there is a whole scouting department.
Txiki himself said it during his time here, I am the one who chose who to sign not the coach. Sure that was during Rijkaard era and he was more flexible with his friend Pep, and because he had more support from Laporta (thanks to Crujif and the crisis we had prior) but that shows how things are managed.
Conte was fired twice because of the thing you said.
No board are mad enough to put the whole management for a coach.
And the board are the one in power, they are the one who gives the authority, it isn't the coach who takes it. Coaches can define team needs, but it is up to the board to give it to him.
If every coach refused that, we won't have any coach accepting any role.



We already know that 3 times EV wasn't handed a player he wanted. CB in summer of 2017 (Mina was signed due to Mascherano leaving),Willian and a back up LB in 2018
Twice he was proven right, and 3rd time it was proven that Abidal choice was awful and bad fit.
Mina was given enough opportunity for his level of talent for a player signed for half a year. We got a bargain for him and we sold. Marlon wasn't good either and we got a good deal for him and he was moved rightfully.




EV inherited a team that its only 2 outfield good players who are Under 28 years old players. One was out(Neymar) or shit (Umtiti) in less than a year. The remaining 7 starters he had was 3 30 years old players, 2 29 , one 33 and one 28. The remaining starter was Roberto.
And everyone thought that team was done after summer of 2017 btw.




It has everything to do with what you are saying. You are claiming it is his job and giving examples of certain players, but you ignore a player that completely contradict with what you are saying.
Pep wanted Eto out, board told him no and deal with it. He could do nothing about it.
Next year, he forced his will using contract negotiations, but failed to do so with next board.
The power is given to the coach. He doesn't just take it.




+1
What I liked about Bartou first year is that he has given Zubi full authority, let him and Lucho do there things.
After that, he started to intervene and he lacks the understanding to do so. Since he took over in 2014 we had Zubi,Braide (along 3 others), Roberto, Abidal acting as SD. And there was Segura who no one knew what he is doing. He didn't know who to trust with football matters and who to hire.

One of the best posts i have seen here in a while. Cadeau
 

George_Costanza

Active member
[MENTION=22514]Riordon[/MENTION]

Both Liverpool and City have top managers with clear system and style of coaching, even Messi will be part of the system not the system under Pep and Klopp. Stop blaming Messi for everything, without him we are more like Getafe or Levante's level. Valverde is a weak, incompetent boss who doesn't want to change anything. This job is always been above his level.
 

Potroh

New member
I would hope you start reading what I've said. And stop lecturing people in this BBZ manner.
You are making things up that I didn't said. And you fail to see a lot about EV.

I'm glad that someone is capable of seeing more into Valverde, even compared to his own mirror.
So he should stick to his own ideas? Fantastic. Tell me pls. what those ideas are?

Believe me, I have no intention of lecturing you or anyone else here, specially here, I just simply and merely try to show a slightly different perspective on actual Barca play or the lack of it.
And please don't compare me to good BBZ, who is one of the few posters with a admirable intellect here, apart from his main problem, namely that without his often strange statistics, he seems to be understanding almost nothing about the actual game that is played on the pitch.

If you are sure that EV has clear tactics - as you have just said - please mention to me at least some of those tactical elements here. Not too many, just what you consider to be important and sort of useful for the team. You can even mention useless ones, I don't mind, but name some of these elements, because even after having almost a thousand tactical-pow-wows in my past as a player and the same quantity as a coach, I'm simply unable to see anything that would remind me of conscious tactics in EV's years at Barca.

You can point me (us) to different games when he employed different tactics. Truly curious about your observations.

Furthermore:
- Sporting Directors are simply middle-man between the coach and the directorate of the given club, where the sporting director represents the the ownership regarding sporting matters, without the executive power, but it is the coach who has the EXECUTIVE power in the day to day work. If the coach feels he is not backed by the directorate (definitely not the case at Barca) then he should resign. All coaches do it in that particular situation.
Obviously the structure differs club by club, but it's anything but a lie, as you try to use that word who knows in what context.

- Related to the summer-Neymar circus, by now almost everyone is aware that PSG didn't at all wanted to sell, just as Barca didn't want to buy him. Even Messi said so in his politely shy voice. Finally even my own friend the assistant coach of PSG told me so, the entire circus was a "Potemkin-city" and nothing else. You say: the board sat with PSG on negotiating table which happened one and a half month late, the last minute, without anything to offer to PSG. It means nothing.

- Coaches can define team needs, but it is up to the board to give it to him - you say. Obviously so, as no coach pays teams from his own pocket.

- Regarding the players, as EV supposedly wanted Willian is a good example, being 30 yrs old and he wanted him because he played well against Barca and that's all, which shows the fantasy of EV.

Otherwise you sound as if poor Valverde inherited a team in its ruins, thus all he could achieve is THIS - which he has done by hard work. In fact the team was in relatively good shape, even physically much more so than it is now, and I assure you the considerable anti-Valverde movements on the net are not due to the CL fiascos only, but people watching Barca week by week realized that probably this is the worst team to watch in a decade.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Long post about tactics below. So who doesn't care about tactics should skip it.

The correct way to asses Valverde tactically, leaving emotions regarding his work at Barcelona, especially in CL, aside, is that he is a good manager for some types of teams. Not great, but good. He would do well at teams like Juventus and most other pure Italian teams (Roma, Inter), Atletico tyes in Spain (like Bilbao and Sevilla, no wonder he did well at a Bilbao), Chelsea types in England. I think he wouldn't do much worse than Allegri did with Juve. Serie A titles, Copa d'Italia wins, CL runs up until the semis or so, that would be his peak as a manager. And tactically, he could pull that off I think. Very questionable mentality though and severe lack of guts in intense moments.

My theory, based on watching all his games at Barcelona almost, so that's about 100+ games of Valverde that I've seen, is that he would do well at conservative, rigidly structured teams. I don't know how exactly he came to be compared with total football, but that was a wrong assessment of him I feel. If that was the case, he would show way more of that at FC Barcelona considering he has the right tools to implement a playing style of that nature. And the things he shows are completely in the opposite area. I see more counter-attacking tactics, more pragmatism, and way less creativity and courage. I see a rigid, pragmatic style, based on old school Italian football of rigid positional play. Luis Enrique was also in the same direction. Tactically, I don't think there are many differences between them. What Enrique had that made him a better coach for Barcelona was in different areas, not tactics.

Back to Valverde, he would do better with squads filled with experienced, task-oriented players. The opposite of Barcelona or Madrid squads, usually filled with many moody South Americans, and with a lack of good traditional defenders. His profile as a manager would've made him suitable for the Milan or Juventus of 2003.

He would be the most effective with conservative, specialized players, the type of players common in Serie A in the late 90's early 00's. By specialized players I mean players who have a clear position, and whose qualities are a perfect match with their position in a very traditional, old school way. Take defense. For example, he will always prefer a Jaap Stam or Vidic to a peak Pique. For him, peak Pique brings more risk than good things, even though he was a great player. He wouldn't have known to get the best out of Pique. Same with Busquets. Even if Valverde had Busquets at the peak of his career, he wouldn't have become a world-class player. Busquets circa 2011 would always be a worse DM for Valverde than a 2004-2005 Makelele, or a prime Gatusso. Also, Lampard, Gerard, Seedorf, types, would be more suitable than Xavi, or Fabregas, or Iniesta.

Valverde prefers players with big physical attributes, able to hold a position on their own, by having the individual strength to decide duels without too much help from their teammates. Both Xavi and Iniesta are in this regard a bit misunderstood as players. Xavi would not be the same ultra dominant player in every setup and tactic. He would need a specific type of system to get the best out of his qualities. Managers like Valverde would've never provided the same platform for Xavi to be at his best as Guardiola did. Never in a million years.

Valverde would do well in a 2003 Milan style where everyone has a very clear job to do, very clear separation of tasks and duties. Clear 2 strikers in Schevchenko and Inzaghi both poachers and great finishers, the clear destroyer in Gatusso, a box to box like Seedorf able be effective in both offensive and defensive transition, a central midfielder like Pirlo with razor-sharp service game, a trequartista like Rui Costa or later Kaka in charge of creative passes deep in the final third. 2 iron defenders like Nesta and Maldini. A top defensive fullback like Costacurta helping them out. Every position is filled with players whose main ability is directly what is traditionally associated with the position they play in. Finishing and speculative skills for the strikers, tackling and physicality for the DM, razor-sharp passing from the deep playmaker, a great engine from the box to box player. This exact match between their main ability and the position they play means they can command the position in direct duels with players who appear in their zones more easily. This is key for efficient rigid football. Players must win 1 vs 1s in their zones very frequently because this way of playing is based on limited teammate access, meaning your teammates will not be allowed to leave their position to help you, except very rarely and in very strict conditions. Say if you play DM, this means you will often be left on your own, to block the other team's AM or whoever appears in your zone. Meaning you have to individually tackle him, push him off the ball, make him hesitate and give a bad pass. Again, emphasis on individually. Someone like Gatusso is much more likely to do that, due to his overall presence as a DM and defensive ability, than someone like Busquets.

Now comes the areas where Valverde is a really bad fit. And unfortunately for some Barcelona fans here, this is exactly how we'd like our team to play. He is a terrible fit for every fluid system based on possession and passing. Fluidity is the main way to create chances in static situations of play. We at Barcelona attack teams mostly in states where the other team does a clear defensive setup. The only way to break through these teams is to cause gaps in their defensive structure. And the only way to do that is to move off the ball and make it harder for the defensive team to keep up and plug the gaps in their lines created from that movement. So the massive failure of Valverde at Barcelona is in the area of the positional game. He has an average understanding and average execution of what a team should do to be effective against good defensive structures.

The main purpose of offensive fluidity is to create overloads near the ball. Overloads are liberties given to players near the ball-carrier to vacate their position to make themselves available to receive the ball. The position they vacate is taken on by a teammate. This translation is done until the farthest areas from the ball, which are less covered. For example, if the ball is at the RB, all the 3 midfielders will be very oriented on the right. Sometimes even the LB who is usually 60m away from the RB will be seen in a more central position. This means the RB has a lot more options to pass than if the players would've kept their positions.


If you watch all the great possession teams, they will always have massive numbers in the close sectors where the ball is, both offensively and defensively. This has a double role. Offensively, you have many quick pass options in areas that are immediately accessible. Defensively, you have numbers around the ball and you can mount very quick pressing traps (Liverpool do this masterfully). The best way to see this is Liverpool's 2nd goal vs Barcelona. They have so many numbers around the ball that immediately after they win the ball, they do 2 quick passes and it's 2-0. As you saw in the images showing Rakitic's cop-out, Having so many players near the ball means somewhere farther up there is more space to be found. But most players do not think as clearly when under pressure.

If you watch Valverde's Barcelona closely, you will see that the passing options near the ball carrier are scarce, and of really poor quality. This means there are no overloads. Players keep the position rigidly and allow the players on the ball to be pressed, forced to release the ball in bad conditions, leading to turnovers, bad passes, you name it.

In more ways than one, offensive overloads are an aggressive question that the attacking team asks the defensive team. Something like: okay, so you blocked me player for player and I can no longer pass in a way that is good for me without making a change in my shape (this situation happens frequently vs good teams). Now I have two options. Either I pass the ball in areas I don't like, hoping some of my players will give me a piece of individual magic somewhere to get me in a better spot (the rigid manager's course of action), or I as a manager do something to unsettle the defending team (something Klopp or Pep or other fluid managers do very often). The question is a player vacating his neutral/blocked position to receive the ball.

Think about it. Messi at False 9 in the 2-6 on Bernabeu was exactly that. An alteration of predictable positioning to trigger a response. Messi dropped in attacking midfield area, in the space between the CBs and the midfielders. Asking the Madrid CBs: do you follow me, or not? Initially, they did not follow him and he received some really good passes which allowed him to turn and run at Madrid's CBs in speed. Very dangerously. Then they did follow him, at which point they started to leave huge gaps behind them. And Henry appeared in the gaps and scored 2 goals. The perfect example of fluidity in the offensive game. Asking a question, triggering a response, then speculating the weakness points in that response. This is fluid football. You ask questions that are not there if you stand still and always pass to the opponent that is left free by the defending team. Normally, in rigid football, your striker is not supposed to stray away so much from his natural position. You ask those questions not only on the back of individual qualities of the players (basically forcing star players to take on opponents, like Lucho did with Neymar back in 2017, to really bad effect) but by using smart movement and patterns. This vital part of positional play is completely unknown to Valverde.

And this is why he is a really bad Barcelona manager for me, with the current conditions. We simply do not have the players to play in a style similar to the 2006 team. Even though it can be effective. I don't have a problem with us playing in a Rijkhaard way, but we simply do not have the right players for that. To play like that, we need to get rid of Messi, Suarez, Busquets, Pique, Alba.
 
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Potroh

New member
So who doesn't care about tactics should skip it.

Good post and yes, 75% of the fans will not understand what you are trying to convey. Let me be even worse this time...

But (and there is always one) you actually talk less about the real tactics than it would be fruitful, specially that it seems only a few actually know anything about tactics in football.
Folks will not be really able to adapt your words to Valverde, simply because they have no idea about tactics in football.

Please don't get mad at me but let me sum up TACTICS in football, maybe, just maybe there will be some folks here, who might understand at least the essence of it.
I've spent my entire life with these things surrounding me, both a player and later as a coach, and because I'm not a talented young lad anymore on the pitch, and out of it, folks at least should believe my 50 years of experience. Not my fecking diploma on it, but practical, day to day experience.
If not, let it be, who cares. But I make a brief try nevertheless.

FORMATION:
- FORMATION in itself is NOT tactics. Formation is a raw skeleton only.
- RIGID formation is always a bad thing on the pitch, formations (in plural) should be exchanged according to the live game situations.
- Tactics are DEPENDENT on which player is playing, thus tactics necessarily change if player-A or player-B plays.
- No formation is THE optimal one in all situations. What is best, depends on different circumstances. Rigid formations are predictable and easy to tactically circumvent.
- It’s difficult to place a formation on a system of play, as FLUIDITY is key to the way it works or works not.
- Formation is always dependent on the physical characteristics and how chargeable the given players are.
- Tactics are NOT formation and mere formations are not tactics. See below.

TACTICAL PRINCIPLES:
- Tactics are NOT a formation related phenomenon, it has to do with what happens in the different PHASES of an ACTION. Be it a defensive or offensive action.
- Accomplishing a phase related action is only tactical if it is also related to BOTH the former and the forthcoming phase.

DEFENSE:
1. Territorial, channel-based and man-marking variables.
2. Creating numerical superiority in the centre.
3. Giving up a territory or channel or closing it the soonest.
4. Use of cutbacks close to the box.
5. In-line defense, W-line defense or their combinations.
6. Avoiding to be overpowered in the air and forcing the ball on the ground.
7. Marking SAFE-ZONES in defense.

PRESSING:
1. Creating numerical superiority in the given paths.
2. Creating numerical superiority in the given channel.
3. Forcing the opponent to miss-pass by closing on.
4. Forcing the opponent to miss-pass by closing his pass directions.
5. Forcing the opponent to miss-pass by passing backwards.
6. Counter-pressing formulas.
7. When pressing is advised and when it becomes counterproductive.

BUILD-UP:
1. Build-up through short passes. When to do that and what follows it.
2. Build-up through long passes. When to do that and what follows it.
3. Build-up through V formation passes and trying to deplete the opponent.
4. Build-up avoiding physical contact.
5. Build-up not avoiding physical contact, that includes dribbling.
6. Build-up through volleys.
7. Build-up through possession and provoked fouls.
8. Dispersion to circulate the ball.

ATTACKING PREPARATION:
1. Fast preparation, careful preparation and slow preparation.
2. Use of cutbacks close to the opponent box.
3. Finding unpredictable moves and balls.
4. Movements without the ball.
5. Fast runs with the ball and without it.
6. Through balls and short balls.
7. Wing volleys and straight to box volleys.
8. Midfield and box dribbles.
9. Directional dribbles.
10. Contingent shots from outside the box.

ATTACK:
1. Shots and arching balls.
2. Bowing balls and springing balls.
3. Flat shots and posting-shots.
4. Dribbles (clean dribbles, forced dribbles, static dribbles, dynamic dribbles).
5. Flat finishes and high finishes.
6. High balls for header on target and strong balls for header on target.
7. Shots on the goalkeeper, corner shots.
8. Passing inside the box.
9. Finding the best and clearest finishing player.
10. Cheating the goalkeeper and measuring his distance.

These are the most BASIC tactical elements.

Each and every coach should go through each and every phase of the game-play and RECOMMEND the variations that he expects.
Later on: he should discuss these one by one with the players and in training he should practice as many elements and variations as possible.

Before a game: he should analyze the opponent along with the players and outline the tactical elements that the team should PREFER and those that the team should AVOID.
After a game: he should analyze the game with the players, pointing out outstanding mistakes and good achievement alike.

GENERAL TACTICAL ELEMENTS:
- General individual rules for every player & which solutions to use when player-A plays and not player-B.
- General individual rules for every player & which solutions to use when player-A is on the pitch, and which ones when player-B comes in as a sub.
- Individual rules for every player, depending on the opponent and their tactical repertoire.
- The key element is the know-how of the coach to communicate and train them in order to get the behaviors desired from the players.
- Automation of the most important tactical elements by practice.

Tactical Principles that are useful for different tasks during the coaching practice:
- Describing the general collective traits: How do I want my team to play?
- Specifying the team strategy from outside, in each phase in a more precise way, like in build-up finding a free man between the lines to progress.
- Planning and sequencing the training contents: What do I need to train at each time and what to practice for the particular game ahead?
- Organizing the training and coaching intervention: Designing drills, what to focus in each drill to give feedback.
- Doing video-analysis with the players.
- Creating, organizing, and structuring the individual principles.

The set of collective principles structured and detailed to each phase is usually called Game Model.
- Setting the variations which are expected in the current Model.

Spreading Action-Rules and Heuristics:
- At the individual level, tactical principles are rules and ideas, that give a general answer to the question what to do in a given situation.

“If you receive the ball facing backwards, lay-off."
"When you are on the ball, look for the furthest player."
"When you are on the ball, look for the closest player."
"If you are behind the fullback, give him a deep and hard support."
"When you get the ball from the goalkeeper try to dribble diagonally inwards and then passing to the winger."
"In build-up play do not more than two touches."

The action rules main characteristic is to always give a general answer. This means that the answer is usually adequate and useful in similar situations. But it doesn’t mean it will always be adequate, neither that it will be always optimal.

Subjectivity and Objectivity in Principles:

Principles carry inherently a subjective idea of what is appropriate in a given situation. What to do, and consequently what is appropriate, is mostly decided by the coach on the choice of the style he wants to play. As such, there is a connection between those and the collective principles by definition.

While the principles chosen are mainly subjective in their nature, as the coach himself creates them, they need to be - to some degree - coherent with the most basic principles of the game.
If not, it wouldn’t be possible to achieve the objectives of the game through these specific principles, as their purpose is to nuance how to achieve them.

In an extreme way there aren’t principles that pursue losing the ball, playing backwards when is possible to play forwards or not shooting if possible to score.

Optimizing vs Satisfying in the Decision Making:
If the answer provided by the rules we use, is optimal or it is not a different issue on its nature. The coach gives for granted that his ideas are at least coherent and somehow satisfy a minimal objectivity level.

And while it could be true, that some of them are suboptimal (for example, in a given situation the marginal value of switching instead of trying to penetrate could be higher), in the coaching practice we do not care about that directly. But we take the assumption that they are. Furthermore, one critical factor in the real-world are the abilities of the individuals.

While principles are mainly useful for the coach to communicate, they can be also valid for the player, in terms of heuristics and action-rules. However, they use them in a different way than how they are worded, by associating some answer, as a first option, to the visual cue that has been demonstrated.
The rules can be used to know how to position, where to look first, where to pass, and so on.

Where to look or do as first option, what to do instead if the first option is not possible, anticipating by looking first to know if it’s possible and to react if it is not available or to open an option by making feint.

Even if knowing them can be useful for the players, we shouldn’t forget that the objective is to execute them through behaviors. This is usually achieved by getting experience to achieve an unconscious execution of them. On this impacts from one side the level of skill of the player and from other the rate of learning. Both individually dependent.

Variability in the Execution of Principles

We should not expect from the players to carry the principles in a consistent but perfect way. For example, a player that receives facing backwards is not going to lay-off every time he gets the ball in such situation.

There is an inherent variability in the answer. It comes from the fact that principles are models and as such, a simplification of the reality.
The answer given by a principle is not closed. It just gives a broad response and the player needs to manage the details of the situation. The principles do not try to answer everything, but just giving a quick and easy answer that helps guiding the first intention of the players.
Intentions and NOT executions.

There are two main sources of variability: Situations and players.
- Variability relative to random factors in the actual situation that the model doesn’t account for. This is within the realm of individual decision and the possibilities accounted.
- This is why the rule is not directly used by the player, but somehow gets into the decision process. The individual does not always follow that, but has some guidelines that allow a general answer to be adapted to the situation and to his own abilities.

- Variability related to the individuals involved in the situation. This is not only related to the capability to read the situation, principles do help here, but also to the individual abilities (skills) and past experience that will invoke different actions. For example, because a player has been taught to turn, sometimes will turn even if it’s not good (this is negative), or because he is usually good in turning so tends to "read the situation from his perspective" and turns (this is positive).

Conclusion and Final Remarks

- Principles can be relative to the collective (after recovery, play out of the recovery-zone) or individual (if/then rules).
- Both provide an answer for what to do in a given situation (more or less specific to the situation and more or less closed what to do) in a general way.
- Principles can be more specific (when the 9 gets the ball, give a passing line behind him if the 10 is wide) or more general (creating diagonal passing lines).
- Principles can be more or less sophisticated if they account different possibilities (if-then-else).
- One of the most important in this regard is to develop a shared vocabulary, that the players can understand and relate to, it can be different than the one employed on the pitch but it should be based in the same principles.

Finally, the most important thing to have in mind about principles is that they are just words and what matters is the ability to make them executed through proper deeds in the game. That’s the coaching expertise.

I don't want to even write down the name Valverde here. It's not about him, these are the generally accepted tactical principles, that of course in their detail might easily take 500 pages.
Nevertheless, the fan, the spectator, the enthusiast, the audience need to know that tactics are rather complicated in football, and when praising or cursing any tactics by any coach on the planet, one should at least have to have the bare-minimal vocabulary and knowledge regarding tactical scenarios and formulas.

It's only enough in a forum to spit out things like: "he is shit", "sell", "sack" or the like, in reality the bare minimum of tactical variations is what I summed up above, that even the worst coach has to know, well before he starts coaching any team.
 

Tackle

Senior Member
[MENTION=22514]Riordon[/MENTION]

Both Liverpool and City have top managers with clear system and style of coaching, even Messi will be part of the system not the system under Pep and Klopp. Stop blaming Messi for everything, without him we are more like Getafe or Levante's level. Valverde is a weak, incompetent boss who doesn't want to change anything. This job is always been above his level.

Current Messi is not capable of playing in a demanding, defined structured system.

He has not been committed to playing with any sort of positional integrity since he decided to vacate the right flank for some inexplicable reason midway through the 2015-16 season.

Fans still are still holding the naive, daft belief that under the right manager Messi could return to being a piece of something bigger. Maybe he was at 22 or 23, but certainly not anymore. Lad is one of the laziest, lethargic players in the world when the ball is not at his feet in the final third.

2019 Messi:

-Zero defensive contribution
-Zero position
-Minimal off-ball movement
-Slow jogging towards the part of the pitch where a teammate has control of the ball
-Pace of the game is slowed to that of a snail and the ball must always be kept on the ground

Even Pep or Klopp would have to modify their system and compromise on their ideals to fit Messi into their respective XIs. De Bruyne and Bernardo would become significantly diminished players were Messi to join City. Trent and Robertson would not have the same crossing opportunities and Firmino would be pushed up to occupy the opposing CBs were Messi on Liverpool. It is not quite as simple as you lot think.

A better manager could undeniably get more out Leo and have the team playing better, but Messi himself in responsible for some the problems. No manager can fully implement their tactics while fully accommodating the current Messi as well.

I am not convinced we should keep him here beyond 2021 with his bloated 50m wage.
 

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=21136]Potroh[/MENTION], fascinating read, especially in regards to methodology and approach from the manager's perspective. That sort of stuff is not very common on forums. In fact, it's probably the best post of this kind I've seen on this forum since I've joined.
 

George_Costanza

Active member
Current Messi is not capable of playing in a demanding, defined structured system.

A better manager could undeniably get more out Leo and have the team playing better, but Messi himself in responsible for some the problems. No manager can fully implement their tactics while fully accommodating the current Messi as well.

That's just a presumption without taken those facts that Messi was part of the system under superior managers and he is the system under below-average managers. Come back once you present facts, not presumption based on emotionally charged and confirmation bias.
 

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