Ernesto Valverde

[Potroh]

[MENTION=21136]Potroh[/MENTION], fascinating read, especially in regards to methodology and approach from the manager's perspective. That sort of stuff is not very common on forums. In fact, it's probably the best post of this kind I've seen on this forum since I've joined.

Thanks serghei, but you know it well that this is the bare minimum one needs to understand about tactics, that so many mention and talk about, without knowing almost anything about it.
Folks can't distinguish formation from tactical elements, they think coaching is to substitute their beloved or hated players in the 60th minute, and that's it.

I truly wish to avoid to be the devils-advocate here or elsewhere, but once in a while some people - like you or me or others - should pour some clear water into the tab, and even if very briefly, but should outline the needed minimums that someone has to cognitively possess in order to have any meaningful discussions about football...

 

[Potroh]

Cot damnit, a STRONG wall of texts BBZ style in this thread!

Wall of text, yes, depending on the demand of the actual topic. One cannot talk about tactics or qualities of coaching in football, with 3-4 emotional sentences only.

Neither [MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] nor myself or anyone else wants to be too much on the others by writing novels, but there is simply no other way to provoke, at least a bit, of the almost silent majority, and spread the word of the bare-minimal knowledge that is needed to even start to converse about this game.

What I tried to put down on tactics and coaching responsibilities, probably takes 4-5 written pages not more.
But those, who are reluctant to read these basics in a short form, but are NOT reluctant to term strong opinions and even attacks, that they no almost nothing about, they need to think a bit more.
I won't change much anymore in this regard. But they could and can, and that is the important factor when someone takes the "pen" and write these walls.

BBZ is, alas, very different though. He has strong likes and dislikes, that he tends to spread by redundant repetitions of opinions and mostly irrelevant data. Before all, probably he is the one who should imbibe the basics that we try to mention - time to time.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I'm glad that someone is capable of seeing more into Valverde, even compared to his own mirror.
So he should stick to his own ideas? Fantastic. Tell me pls. what those ideas are?

Believe me, I have no intention of lecturing you or anyone else here, specially here, I just simply and merely try to show a slightly different perspective on actual Barca play or the lack of it.
And please don't compare me to good BBZ, who is one of the few posters with a admirable intellect here, apart from his main problem, namely that without his often strange statistics, he seems to be understanding almost nothing about the actual game that is played on the pitch.

If you are sure that EV has clear tactics - as you have just said - please mention to me at least some of those tactical elements here. Not too many, just what you consider to be important and sort of useful for the team. You can even mention useless ones, I don't mind, but name some of these elements, because even after having almost a thousand tactical-pow-wows in my past as a player and the same quantity as a coach, I'm simply unable to see anything that would remind me of conscious tactics in EV's years at Barca.

Oh, and you are way closer to BBZ than you think. But it is ok he is actually a good member here.

You can point me (us) to different games when he employed different tactics. Truly curious about your observations.

There are dozens of posts out there about his tactics, from the 1st day he joined us. Feel free to look at it.
If you fail to comprehend them, it is your problem.

Furthermore:
- Sporting Directors are simply middle-man between the coach and the directorate of the given club, where the sporting director represents the the ownership regarding sporting matters, without the executive power, but it is the coach who has the EXECUTIVE power in the day to day work. If the coach feels he is not backed by the directorate (definitely not the case at Barca) then he should resign. All coaches do it in that particular situation.
Obviously the structure differs club by club, but it's anything but a lie, as you try to use that word who knows in what context.

It is a pure lie, when Sporting Director says clearly he is the one who decides who to be signed not the coach. It is crystal clear who makes the decisions. Happened with literally every coach on that top level. Already gave true life examples and not just opinions.
How many coaches resigned in particular situations? Only guy I remember was Bielsa and he is an example of crazy coach despite being talented one.
Executive power lies solely on Sporting Director. It is his job description actually. Coach are more or less a consultant when it comes to signing.
He write reports, say his demands but leave the actual job to the sporting director.
The power of a consultant depends on what is given by the board. New coach in a desperate team is usually more.Perfect example was Mourinho at Inter. 1st year he was given his demands, 2nd year he was told to shut up and work with the players they chose. He lated admitted that they chose better than him especially with Lucio (he pushed for Carvalho)

- Related to the summer-Neymar circus, by now almost everyone is aware that PSG didn't at all wanted to sell, just as Barca didn't want to buy him. Even Messi said so in his politely shy voice. Finally even my own friend the assistant coach of PSG told me so, the entire circus was a "Potemkin-city" and nothing else. You say: the board sat with PSG on negotiating table which happened one and a half month late, the last minute, without anything to offer to PSG. It means nothing.

So both clubs sat down with no intention but wasting each other time? OK

- Regarding the players, as EV supposedly wanted Willian is a good example, being 30 yrs old and he wanted him because he played well against Barca and that's all, which shows the fantasy of EV.

Willian was a bad choice due to his age and price asked. Board had every right to say no because of it. If he was in same price range of Vidal (reported to be 18, though other sources said 30M) he would have been a good choice actually.
Willian is a good player himself, and he was perfect for 442 formation we used with Paulinho here. Signing Malcom was bad decision because he plays same position as Dembele and doesn't provide a different solution tactically. So Abidal made a good decision for the club to veto old expensive player, but he made foolish decision to sign his favorite young toy from French league.
And again you show your inability to comprehend simple ideas. I didn't say Willian is a good example. I gave it as a prove that 3 times EV didn't get what he demanded. That he isn't the man in charge of signings. And that other 2 times he was correct but this time both he and Abidal made a mistake.

Otherwise you sound as if poor Valverde inherited a team in its ruins, thus all he could achieve is THIS - which he has done by hard work. In fact the team was in relatively good shape, even physically much more so than it is now, and I assure you the considerable anti-Valverde movements on the net are not due to the CL fiascos only, but people watching Barca week by week realized that probably this is the worst team to watch in a decade.

I didn't sound anything but saying the facts.
Tell me what I said wrong?
In 2017 when he joined. Was Iniesta 33 or not? wasn't Suarez/Pique/Messi 30 years old or not? Wasn't Busquets and Raki 29 or not? Alba 28 or not? Did Neymar stay here? Did Umtiti retain his form and health more than 1 season?

If you think that this is a team that is in a good shape, and should continue to be one after 2 years then ok. But look at neutrals around the globe and how they thought about that team during that summer? Everyone thought we are next Milan and we are done.
And that old team failed to win anything more than CDR one year prior. Didn't reach SF in CL 2 years in a row and was beaten 0-7 in their last 2 away CL game. Exactly same results we complained about under EV.
So no, we weren't in a good shape at all when he joined. EV was promised Verratti and Neymar to make things work and he even didn't get those.
And yeah, I watch the games too, and I previously said that other coach we get will probably not do more than him except improving the aesthetics if the team. But under this squad Liga is the limit of this team result wise. As many here are now admitting the same thing.

because even after having almost a thousand tactical-pow-wows in my past as a player and the same quantity as a coach, I'm simply unable to see anything that would remind me of conscious tactics in EV's years at Barca.

And one last honest advice: Don't use the "I was a player and I a coach" bs. No one will take a random person saying it on the web seriously.
Though I respect your effort in the post quoting Serghi

 

[khaled_a_d]

That's just a presumption without taken those facts that Messi was part of the system under superior managers and he is the system under below-average managers. Come back once you present facts, not presumption based on emotionally charged and confirmation bias.

Which superior managers? Because you are basically limit the chances of Messi making success to very few number of coaches this way.
That in itself is a problem. Because we won't find those coaches everytime

 

[Potroh]

There are dozens of posts out there about his tactics, from the 1st day he joined us. Feel free to look at it.
If you fail to comprehend them, it is your problem.

There isn't a single explicit post on EV's actual tactics here. Rather there are good and well observed mentions of the lack of tactics related to his rein.

Unfortunately until you are also capable of mentioning at least a few things, that you confidently state to be factual, there's no common ground to carry on any fruitful discussion, apart from probably dealing with your personal attack, but even that wouldn't worth the time.

I admire your considerable self confidence and pride. It's good to be in a forum with self-assured people, who can easily persuade themselves never to be queried abut anything they otherwise state.

 

[khaled_a_d]

There isn't a single explicit post on EV's actual tactics here. Rather there are good and well observed mentions of the lack of tactics related to his rein.

Unfortunately until you are also capable of mentioning at least a few things, that you confidently state to be factual, there's no common ground to carry on any fruitful discussion, apart from probably dealing with your personal attack, but even that wouldn't worth the time.

I admire your considerable self confidence and pride. It's good to be in a forum with self-assured people, who can easily persuade themselves never to be queried abut anything they otherwise state.

There are, but if you aren't interested to help yourself or look then ok.
And the feeling is mutual, you fail to support any part of your subjective argument and then proceed to ask people for facts. And we should only believe it just because you said it.

 

[serghei]

There are, but if you aren't interested to help yourself or look then ok.
And the feeling is mutual, you fail to support any part of your subjective argument and then proceed to ask people for facts. And we should only believe it just because you said it.

Can you show us a post discussing EV tactics at Barcelona in some detail that implies he is doing a good job in this aspect? I also fail to see one.

For example, I would like somebody explaining to me why it is good that Semedo doesn't have anyone to combine with most of the time he pushes forward? Or why it is good that De Jong and Arthur often do not provide pass options in the close sectors near the ball? Why it is good that Messi drops back to pick up the ball instead of keeping his higher position and doing runs in the channels to receive there, when we have two midfielders who are very good at building attacks through good passing? Why it is good that Messi had 1 (ONE) pass to Griezmann the whole game vs Slavia?

 

[Marshall D Teach]

Long post about tactics

Stopped reading there. Don't you know tactics don't mean anything? That's why Slavia dominated our billion euro squad. Clearly they have better players. Obviously the solution is to give Valverde another billion euros worth of transfers.

 

[Potroh]

There are, but if you aren't interested to help yourself or look then ok.
And the feeling is mutual, you fail to support any part of your subjective argument and then proceed to ask people for facts. And we should only believe it just because you said it.

Nice try, specially to show off your continuity in simply judging others, while trying to hold on to the illusion that you are unquestionable.

Of course I could tell you the same thing, to look up related posts.
Only a couple of days ago (when had the privilege of exchanging some rare words with BBZ) I made a relatively brief list of Valverde's faults at Barca.
You can find it in Suarez's thread (msg #7721).
Of course you will not do that and will not confute any of my points, so obviously you will say that "you fail to support any part of your subjective argument and then proceed to ask people for facts"

At least TRY to contradict my points mentioned there, or better if you simply don't, in case all you can do is to stick to your own general and never-explained asseveration.

Regarding the bullshit you mentioned yesterday about myself and the if "we should only believe it just because you said" I can only tell you, that it is extremely easy to envelop yourself in anonymity in a forum like this one.
There are serious forums worldwide, where people don't hide their identities, there are forums where signing your post with a real name is compulsory.
Of course this forum is different and it is not a big problem, but even this one could be slightly different.

At least I had the courage to mention that I used to be someone earning his bread by the game, which is still a more sincere and better solution than just vomiting blood and canalizing frustration behind a meaningless username.

There are some nice and great people here in this forum, who exactly know my name (and obviously I also know their names) and my tiny (40 yrs old) contribution to the game, we talk in private, but I hope you admit that specially being 64, I shouldn't really care about what you or others believe about me. I really don't. I used to be a football player, so what? I never claimed to be Puskás or Maradona, just someone who played once upon a time in a remote and indifferent east-European country, behind the iron-wall.
I have nothing to prove, specially if some of my words here are not proof enough. But even that is only relevant, if one calculates the average football fan's actual knowledge about the game: which is slightly above zero.

 

[serghei]

You guys better close the conversation as it's getting too personal. You're both some of the best posters around here imo.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Nice try, specially to show off your continuity in simply judging others, while trying to hold on to the illusion that you are unquestionable.

You are the one who attacked me replying to my comments to [MENTION=19222]xXKonan[/MENTION]. You personalized the argument before me replying a word toward you,and then you complain when you get same type of reply?ok
I written a half page reply to you, but I will stop here as respect for @Serghi and other members who won't bother reading this

 

[Potroh]

You guys better close the conversation as it's getting too personal. You're both some of the best posters around here imo.

Done.

 

[Lapi]

The sad truth is that nobody will be a pilot if he traveled a lot by air.
Nobody would allow someone, who has observed a good amount of open-heart-surgeries to operate upon anyone.
Nobody would let someone to pull a tooth, unless he was a dentist.

Consequently, we have seen hundreds of football games in our lives, but we are self-made experts only.
That's why it is a great thing if someone with the insight aspect freshens up our often biased viewpoints.
There is no shame in learning some new things from someone, who has actually done it, way better than trying to re-establish our fading local authority.

 

[Messigician]

Khaled vs Potroh was one of the more interesting fights in this forum

 

[Aryagorn]

Even Chelsea under the rookie Lampard with a transfer ban are playing much better than our shittie most expensive team in the world