Frenkie de Jong
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serghei
Senior Member
When entering this thread.
Pretty much. He was only man of the match or close in the last game prior to this one vs Betis
Have you missed your medication?
Barcelona_Boy
Member
Gnidrologist
Senior Member
It's as if there's a same guy with multiple accounts that can't get over his butthurt against forum de amigos.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
It's amazing.
Whenever someone posts bad about Frenkie, Arthur and similar, we see replies:
1. this gotta be the same user with 20 accounts
2. ban this trol
3. who are these rats?
4. who is this idiot?
God forbid that there are more and more users around the world who aren't buying a hype anymore and who see that majority of La Masia kids are a total crap and hype, and that new signings are either horrible or ok guys but with some huge flaws which aren't allowed to be mentioned here.
Btw, if you ask me about Frenkie's 6 Months here, till now his best virtue is: running a lot, covering a lot. Basically, for now he is a workhorse.
In terms of creation, he was almost horrible.
Around the box, he is horrible.
In defense, he is shaky for now.
Arthur, the same, or way worse.
In attack, truly horrible.
In creation, his natural instinct is to slow down, make a turn, hold on the ball for too long. When he eventually makes a good forward pass, even then you have a feeling that it was forced and not his natural reaction.
In defense, he is beyond shaky and meh.
Slow, tired, overweight, problems with professionalism.
But hey, whoever don't think that these 2 are the best thing since sliced bread=gotta be a rat, troll, an idiot and similar.
Because there can't be more than 1-2 users in the world who aren't overly impressed with displays from our 2 young sacred cows
Till now, people had an excuse: they are meh because EV is dumb, they will fly under a new coach.
Then a new coach came, and they are exactly the same with the same flaws as under EV.
Except in Frenkie's case, where he turned to even way worse than under EV.
So, maybe their average displays are not related to a coach... but to their actual abilities?
Also: a question:
I see some people saying: Iniesta was bad till the age 24, then he got smarter etc.
Ok.
But Iniesta was a talent in terms of attacking.
My point:
1. you CAN'T learn ATTACKING talent
= if you have attacking talent, but you are dumb or inefficient=you can improve in terms of decisions over years and become more efficient
= but if you don't have a natural attacking talent=you can't improve over years since the talent is just not there
And the problem is=NONE out of Frenkie and Arthur has ANY attacking talent.
2. further, over years we have seen players who were good in attack and meh in defense.
And over years they learned how to defend better.
Like Rakitic turning from CAM into a defensive minded midfielder.
Or De Bruyne and similar.
But we have rarely seen players who were defensive minded and who turned into awesome, world class creators.
So, we have two problems:
1. if you don't have a natural attacking talent=you can't improve too much over years in that department
2. you can change from a CAM to a CM and CDM, but it is hard to turn from a CDM into a CM or CAM (and please, please don't mention Xavi. Comparing and player with Messi and Xavi should be a bannable offense and a blasphemy from now on)
Now, apply these rules to Frenkie and Arthur who are both BAD in anything regarding the attacking third.
Now, who is a troll and crazy?
Guys who are skeptical about their future attacking input?
Or guys who are saying: everything can be fixed, lol?
Then go back to posts where people want to build a team around Frenkie-Arthur in midfield, lol.
We will need an insane attacking power from other 4 players then (3 attackers and a CAM) to compensate for these 2.
And since we will lose even Messi soon, how likely is that we will get 4 good attacking players soon?
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There is no sharp line on the field (attacking third) where players like Arthur and Frenkie get useless xD Footballing quality translates pretty well to the whole field, thats why Arthur showed the best attacking prowess this season of our midfielders (small, mobile, technically strong will work in attacking 3rd, otherwise Arthur simply wouldnt have the quality).
Frenkie is a bit different (taller), which puts him at a disadvantage further upfront, but with him the question is whether hes a DM or CM (ala Modric). But compared to Busquets for example he has the mobility, speed and strength to be valuable in more advanced positions.
Frenkie is a bit different (taller), which puts him at a disadvantage further upfront, but with him the question is whether hes a DM or CM (ala Modric). But compared to Busquets for example he has the mobility, speed and strength to be valuable in more advanced positions.
ASordidGod
New member
It's amazing.
Whenever someone posts bad about Frenkie, Arthur and similar, we see replies:
1. this gotta be the same user with 20 accounts
2. ban this trol
3. who are these rats?
4. who is this idiot?
God forbid that there are more and more users around the world who aren't buying a hype anymore and who see that majority of La Masia kids are a total crap and hype, and that new signings are either horrible or ok guys but with some huge flaws which aren't allowed to be mentioned here.
Btw, if you ask me about Frenkie's 6 Months here, till now his best virtue is: running a lot, covering a lot. Basically, for now he is a workhorse.
In terms of creation, he was almost horrible.
Around the box, he is horrible.
In defense, he is shaky for now.
Arthur, the same, or way worse.
In attack, truly horrible.
In creation, his natural instinct is to slow down, make a turn, hold on the ball for too long. When he eventually makes a good forward pass, even then you have a feeling that it was forced and not his natural reaction.
In defense, he is beyond shaky and meh.
Slow, tired, overweight, problems with professionalism.
But hey, whoever don't think that these 2 are the best thing since sliced bread=gotta be a rat, troll, an idiot and similar.
Because there can't be more than 1-2 users in the world who aren't overly impressed with displays from our 2 young sacred cows
Till now, people had an excuse: they are meh because EV is dumb, they will fly under a new coach.
Then a new coach came, and they are exactly the same with the same flaws as under EV.
Except in Frenkie's case, where he turned to even way worse than under EV.
So, maybe their average displays are not related to a coach... but to their actual abilities?
Also: a question:
I see some people saying: Iniesta was bad till the age 24, then he got smarter etc.
Ok.
But Iniesta was a talent in terms of attacking.
My point:
1. you CAN'T learn ATTACKING talent
= if you have attacking talent, but you are dumb or inefficient=you can improve in terms of decisions over years and become more efficient
= but if you don't have a natural attacking talent=you can't improve over years since the talent is just not there
And the problem is=NONE out of Frenkie and Arthur has ANY attacking talent.
2. further, over years we have seen players who were good in attack and meh in defense.
And over years they learned how to defend better.
Like Rakitic turning from CAM into a defensive minded midfielder.
Or De Bruyne and similar.
But we have rarely seen players who were defensive minded and who turned into awesome, world class creators.
So, we have two problems:
1. if you don't have a natural attacking talent=you can't improve too much over years in that department
2. you can change from a CAM to a CM and CDM, but it is hard to turn from a CDM into a CM or CAM (and please, please don't mention Xavi. Comparing and player with Messi and Xavi should be a bannable offense and a blasphemy from now on)
Now, apply these rules to Frenkie and Arthur who are both BAD in anything regarding the attacking third.
Now, who is a troll and crazy?
Guys who are skeptical about their future attacking input?
Or guys who are saying: everything can be fixed, lol?
Then go back to posts where people want to build a team around Frenkie-Arthur in midfield, lol.
We will need an insane attacking power from other 4 players then (3 attackers and a CAM) to compensate for these 2.
And since we will lose even Messi soon, how likely is that we will get 4 good attacking players soon?
What about Toure? Started out def mid, became pretty much the best attacking mid in Prem at City? That being said, and it does pain me to admit this, because I like him and want to love him, but overall I've been fairly underwhelmed by De Jong. Whether that's because he's been playing out of position, I'm not sure. But personally at this time I'm not sure I'd trust him as a sole dm (though I'd like to see him given the chance to prove me wrong); and as for an 8, or even a 10, he just doesn't have (as of this moment in time) the attributes. Particularly the passing, which is actually quite poor from what I've seen, but also his close control and dribbling, which is only really good enough from a deeper position where there's more space and time. And even then is no better than someone like Kovacic, say. Obviously I'm not writing him off, he's a talented player. But the generational talent he's been hyped as? I'm not seeing it. Yet. I really hope I'm wrong.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
No offense, but you have probably started to watch Barca or Yaya during Pep.
In a summer of 2007, when Rijkaard signed Yaya, he said that he needed a physical midfielder, who can run a lot and who can bring the ball from our own half and help in the attacking phase.
In our 2006 season, we had Edmilson, Motta, Van Bommel and Deco+Xavi.
We sold Van Bommel after winning a CL and our team went to shit to some extent.
Xavi returned after an injury and we started to play more often Xavi-Deco and even Iniesta.
But we started to lack some physique and pace.
Yaya was the answer in that moment.
For Monaco, he played as an allrounder midfielder and scored 5 goals in the 2nd part of 2006/07 season and this is why Rijkaard bought him.
So, my point is:
Yaya wasn't a pivot who turned into a creative and goalscoring midfielder.
But: a natural creative and goalscoring midfielder who was turned into a pivot AT BARCA, and who later again returned to his natural positions and started to create and score more.
Yaya was 23-24 years old in his season at Monaco in 2006/07, the same as a current Arthur.
And Yaya was showing a lot of natural dribbling, creative, attacking and finishing talent.
Arthur has shown absolutely none out of those in his career (except being press resistant, making turns, recycling possession and getting the ball from our own half).
Now, check young Yaya pre-Barca. And now: are you that surprised that he turned into a goalscoring and a creative player in Premier league?
I am not. Because he always had that talent in his blood. Unlike Frenkie and Arthur who are almost braindead in the attacking 3rd of the pitch.
Anyway, it is fine to have 1 Frenkie in a team.
But when you have 2 similar players, you are already in problems in terms of creation in the attacking 3rd and a burden is heavy on 3 attackers and 1 remaining midfielder.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
They are similar in terms that they both suck in attack.
And that they share similar virtues (press resistance, getting the ball from the back).
Plus Arthur is weakish in defense and of questionable pace and stamina.
An attacking minded team like Barca would probably profit more with only one out of those two on a field, because we suck in the attacking third with those two.
Today it is easier while we have Messi.
But imagine a team in 2023: Fati-Lautaro-Dembele, someone, Arthur, Frenkie.
Does that team looks promising attacking wise without Messi?
To me, this looks like a team from Gaspart's era who is somewhere in between 4th and 6th place.
Gaspart had Rivaldo.
Laporta had Ronaldinho.
Barto had Messi.
Whom will we have after Messi?
On top of that, there are no La Masia talents and two main midfielders are braindead in attack.
Sounds like fun.
Overly simplifying as always.
Totally the midfielders fault when we dont have worldclass attacking talent? You are drifting again.
serghei
Senior Member
Neither of them sucks in attack. Attack is a very broad word anyway. If you mean to say they are not scorers, I agree. But they are top passers, and they can become assist makers for sure if we keep improving our tactics.
I agree we need to add a midfield-scorer when Messi not here anymore.
jairzinho
Senior Member
I think it's harsh to judge the player and say he is overhyped when he is not even used in his best position.
He excelled at Ajax primarily as a pivot. At Barca he has rarely played there but is more of a box to box midfielder.
You can't expect him to be a midfielder scorer all of a sudden when his best work comes in deeper positions.
He excelled at Ajax primarily as a pivot. At Barca he has rarely played there but is more of a box to box midfielder.
You can't expect him to be a midfielder scorer all of a sudden when his best work comes in deeper positions.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
That was regarding our future.
We always had some superstar players if we wanted to each heights.
The problem is: today there is more rich clubs than ever.
And in this moment, there aren't any obvious candidates at all to be Barca's leaders in the future.
Imagine if Messi retires this summer or leaves Barca.
We would buy some clowns like Sancho again.
So:
1. regarding our future, huge problems are infront of us
Further, regarding Xavi-Iniesta or players like Arthur, people forget that Xavi-Iniesta were the best.
Plus, they had Messi to bang 50+ goals per season from their possession game.
Now, if you don't have Messi to bang 50 goals from your passes, then you are just getting a sterile possession and not too many goals and victories.
Even Xavi-Iniesta would struggle without Messi in attack.
And then, my point is: if we'll have no Messi, no other star forwards, and if we'll have way weaker and way more sterile copies of Xavi-Iniesta, how much can we expect in upcoming years?
So: Frenkie-Arthur might work to some extent as long as we have Messi.
Even though, even now that duo don't work that well.
Imagine what will happen when we'll be without Messi and when we'll have that sterile duo. That was my point.
So:
1. you can build a team around 3 Arthurs and then you need something like MSN in attack to compensate for 3 Arthurs
2. or, if you can't buy 3 players like in MSN, then you will need some attacking minded midfielders to compensate for not so world class attacking trio
And then again, how things look currently:
1. we will have a shitty attacking trio post Messi
2. paired with insanely sterile midfield duo (in attacking terms)
Do you get me now?
I wouldn't say that they are top passers.
I would say that they are top passers in the sense: they will keep the ball, resist press, and find a teammate in the moments when 3 players are pressuring them.
So, they are kinda=perfect players for rondos=they will always avoid pressure and almost never lose the ball.
But then, football exists outside of rondos also.
In the attacking third, your main goal is NOT=to keep the ball no matter what and to avoid a pressure of the defender.
But to FIND space and see things which normal players can't see.
The 2nd part is similar to No10 from 90s.
Or let's say Michael Laudrup from our history.
You see, this kind of passing around the box and creating chances is way different to Arthur's passing where he is just avoiding opponents running at him and where he plays rondos in the middle of the pitch:
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