Messigician
Senior Member
Germany is back
Frenkie de Jong
- Thread starter DonAK
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Gnidrologist
Senior Member
There shouldn't be dichotomy between the two. Xavi was a workhorse too. BBZ, who came up with this workhorising business apparently just likes big, muscular men.
Mitchell1978
Senior Member
Its not very realistic imo, would cost a lot, maybe if barça sell Dembele for 100 m then its possible.
Messigician
Senior Member
Straight swap Dembele for De Jong and De Ligt.
Not like Dembele can say no. What he gonna do?
Not like Dembele can say no. What he gonna do?
Kingkongkong
New member
How was he today?
BBZ8800
Senior Member
If Xavi was a workhorse, maybe it is time to shut down Barcaforum.
When we are talking about workhorses, people are mostly talking about midfielders and wingers who are good at defending, work rate and cover a lot of field, on top of their technical and attacking abilities.
So, let's say that a midfielder has 3 basic areas:
1. technical and attacking area
2. workrate in terms of off the ball movement and running a lot during 90 minutes
3. being a good defender
Xavi was, imo:
10/10 in creation
9/10 in workrate
6/10 in defending
Iniesta:
10/10 in creation
7/10 in workrate
4/10 in defending
Further, in defending, I am looking at two things:
1. applying an immediate pressure when we lose the ball (Pep's style)
2. and a classical defending when the opponent is in our half and we are around OUR box
Now, some players can be awesome in applying a pressure (no1) but are quite poor or average defenders in general.
Xavi, Iniesta and other guys were awesome in applying Pep's pressure, but especially Iniesta, were poor actual defenders when an opponent is playing a possession football in our half.
On the other hand, a workhorse like Rakitic is quite better in defending than Iniesta and Xavi.
And weaker in a technical area. Plus, he runs a lot over 90 minutes and babysits a lot.
So, I wouldn't call Xavi a defender-workhorse.
Now, let's go back to De Jong, maybe it is time to crush people's dreams, since majority here are dreaming about Arthur-De Jong midfield.
Imo, those two are too similar.
None of them is good enough in attack.
Arthur is some sort of a hybrid between Busi and Xavi (a more defensive minded and less creative Xavi and playing deeper than him).
And De Jong is some kind of a hybrid between Cb and Busi, who is dropping deep to get the ball and then he is taking the ball into an opponent's half.
But... we already have Busi and Arthur who are dropping deep to get the ball and to take it from our half.
But when Arthur and Busi are dropping deep, they need a 3rd midfielder like Iniesta/Coutinho who will connect the midfield and attack.
And imo, De Jong is not that guy.
De Jong is more or less doing the same what Arthur is doing, with some occasional solo actions.
But none of them are true attacking midfielders.
And none of them is actually too good in defending (no2, when we are sitting deep around our box).
De Jong tonight was good in applying a pressure (no1 type of defending) and made a few tackles.
But overal, as a workhorse and as a pivot, he was leaving tons of room behind his back and in an actual 1 vs 1 defensive duels, tonight he looked physically weak in duels with German players.
In some moments, I had deja vu watching him defending and I thought: wow, this guy is physically as weak as Coutinho and Denis while trying to defend.
Commentator on my channel started a match with words: De Jong and De Light are too special young players.
Around the minute 70, he said: I have mentioned those two at the beginning of the match, but they have showed absolutely nothing tonight.
When the other De Jong guy was entering a field, a commentator said: Netherlands will now have 2 De Jongs on a field. But even if they had 7 of them, they probably couldn't string a few decent passes in a row.
About De Light, he is young and has potential. True.
But in THIS moment, I don't think that he is even better than Lenglet.
I said: in THIS moment.
I know that you guys are obsessed with what might happen in 4 or 8 years.
I don't know who will be better then.
But if we would play tomorrow against Real Madrid and if I had to pick between De Light and Lenglet in this moment, it would be a no brainer for me.
And then, when I read sums of around 80-90M for each of those two, lol.
They are good players and I would like to have them here.
But lol, a hype machine from papers, forums, social media are insane this days.
And a hint for the future: if you guys want this physically light De Jong in our midfield, you will need at least one Rakitic alongside him in a CL matches.
I have no idea how do you plan to field together Arthur, De Jong, Alena etc.
De Jong is tall-ish.
With nice Stamina, pace and acceleration. That is awesome.
But as said above, in some moments, I had deja vu moments tonight and his physique and midfield-defending and 1 vs 1 defensive duels resembled on Coutinho and Denis.
** If anyone will reply: Xavi and Iniesta weren't strong, I will cry.
That was in 2008-2011, with best midfielders ever, prime Messi, a false midfielder Alves and workhorse attackers Etoo, Henry, Pedro, Villa.
So, Xavi and Iniesta won't work in 2019'.
Especially weaker versions of Xavi and Iniesta.
Even Pep's team in his prime struggled against any physical/thug-ish team back then.
And the opponents evolved (and improved their muscles
) in the last 10 years.My commentator was trolling him, Netherland's midfield, their sterile possession.
In one moment he said: Netherlands is able to come near Germany's box once in 15 minutes.
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CatalinR10
Senior Member
xavi used to run 12 km per game , that looks like a worhorse to me .
Who says he is prime Busquets and Iniesta? The best coaches in the world say that? If they say that, then he is overrated by those coaches. But who is saying that?
What a kneejerk reaction. De Jong is a crucial reason why Netherlands are seeing a rejuvenation from being really bad to now winning their group ahead of France and Germany.
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Joan
Well-known member
Who's talking about coaches? I was reading some reactions after his matches and that's where the hype I'm talking about is from.
So someone on this forum says that he now is prime Busquets and Iniesta? I dont think that makes him overrated. It simply means that one person overrates him.
Joan
Well-known member
Aye, you're right. But I wasn't talking about that comment in particular. Reddit (various subs), media etc. And in my opinion lots of people overrate him (which doesn't mean he's not good). In short, that's what I meant by him being overrated.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Because there are only 2 options in the world:
1) to play Barca's style
2) or play like Stoke
There is nothing in between?
And, let me guess, when you say: all time great Barca teams, you probably think ONLY about Pep's Barca, right?
Since, my ideas of football are much closer to a guy from my avatar (Rijkaard), who's winning midfield was Motta 187cm, Van Bommel 187cm, Edmilson 186cm, Xavi and Deco.
With Van Bommel being: technical, tall, strong, a thug.
Motta not far from that.
And Edmilson, less thugish, but quite similar.
If I want a midfield setup closer to that than to Pep's football, am I Barca's hater then?
Look at Rijkaard's team from 2006 when we won a CL, against Chelsea in the 1st match of 1/8 at Stamford Bridge:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/4731518.stm
--- Ronaldinho -- Etoo -- Messi ---
-------- Motta --- Deco ------------
----------- Edmilson ---------------
Gio -- Marquez -- Puyol -- Oleguer
------------ Valdes -----------------
Do you know what is the equivalent of that team in last season?
Dembele ---- Suarez ----- Messi
------ Iniesta -------- Paulinho ---
------------ Rakitic ---------------
Alba -- Umtiti -- Pique -- Vermaelen (lol)
Rijkaard didn't use a regular RB (Belletti), but a defender Oleguer.
That is the same as playing with Vermaelen.
Xavi was injured.
But we had 22 years old Iniesta.
Rijkaard rather opted for 2 workhorses with less technique in Edmilson and Motta than for a young gem Iniesta, because he needed more muscles and height against Chelsea, and not even more flair and technique, which we had enough in Ronnie, Messi and Etoo.
Imagine if a coach would have done something like that today.
A forum would call him: an idiot. How can you play with workhorses instead of Iniesta and similar players?
In short, some of Barca's all time greatest teams (this team was the 2nd best or the 3rd best Barca ever) had quite similar views like me, a workhorse&Stoke lover
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Joan
Well-known member
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