Gareth Bale

[Maradona37]

You don't say Ramos or Puyol or VVD or Godin in those discussions, when they were as good for their positions as the aforementioned midfielders.

Disagree with this to an extent, too. None of those four is the all-time best defender for me. Xavi on the other hand can be argued to be the best midfielder of all time (alongside Matthaus).

His defensive analogues are guys like Maldini, Beckenbauer, Baresi - not Ramos and Puyol and Godin, who, with all due respect to them, are frankly inferior to those defenders. They're not GOAT in their position like Xavi, Iniesta and Modric are. Saying Puyol or Ramos or Godin are as good defenders as Xavi and Iniesta are midfielders isn't correct to me, but it's a game of opinions. To me that is you underrating X and I in the same way you're saying I underrate Ronaldo.

I don't see any of those three you mentioned as all-time great defenders (Van Dijk is the best of those four for me and closer).

Frankly, I can't believe a Barca fan of all people thinks Xavi and Iniesta aren't better midfielders than Puyol or Godin or Ramos were defenders. That's madness to me. Those players were best of their generation. Xavi and Iniesta are best of all-time contenders in their position.

I can't believe anyone would say Sergio fucking Ramos is one of the best defenders ever - unless they started watching football in 2010. The guy struggled as a defender for a start and is more known for his clutch goals.

 

[Maradona37]

Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Kroos are all clear 3-6) of the last 15 years.

I would rate them all ahead of Suarez, Lewa, Benz , Neymar, Robben etc.

People don't get this because they don't understand a midfielder can be more talented and more important to a team than an attacker who scores goals. An alien coming from Mars could understand this very simple concept instantly but a lot of football fans can't.

You'd think people would realise this possibility now looking at Rodri and Haaland at Man City.

 

[KingLeo10]

People don't get this because they don't understand a midfielder can be more talented and more important to a team than an attacker who scores goals. An alien coming from Mars could understand this very simple concept instantly but a lot of football fans can't.

You'd think people would realise this possibility now looking at Rodri and Haaland at Man City.

Yup. When you have midfielders of the quality we’re talking about, you win 10 CLs, 2 WC, and 2 Euro Cups between the lot.

The biggest games are won in midfield. Barca fans should know this better than fans of other clubs.

 

[Maradona37]

Yup. When you have midfielders of the quality we’re talking about, you win 10 CLs, 2 WC, and 2 Euro Cups between the lot.

The biggest games are won in midfield. Barca fans should know this better than fans of other clubs.

Exactly. We have a Barca fan here saying Godin, Ramos and Puyol are every bit as good in their position as Xavi and Iniesta are in theirs. It boggles the mind. He accuses me of underrating Ronaldo - I think he's underestimating all of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

You always know when someone is a football noob because they act like Ronaldo won those four CLs at Real on his own - he was the tip of the spear and would have been absolutely fucking lost without the rest of the team and especially the midfielders and attacking midfielders setting him up and doing donkey work for him.

To reiterate, look at Rodri and Haaland...surely that is the most extreme example that the finisher is the gloss, the midfield is the engine. Messi despite being an attacker is an outlier because he is both the engine of a team and the finishing touch (both to a GOAT level, extremely rare skillset which C Ronaldo doesn't come close to).

 

[Maradona37]

Anyway @khaled_a_d dude, we just vehemently disagree - there's no offence intended. I generally enjoy reading your posts. Also all that modern fan stuff isn't aimed at you, it's just what I have read from a lot of people before.

If you wanna discuss it more we can, though I have really said my piece. Ultimately Messi is much better in passing, dribbling, tight spaces, playmaking, free-kicks, vision and football IQ than Ronaldo for me (and arguably he's an easily better finisher too). He has way more MOTM awards too, which tells a story (even though I said I don't like individual accolades as much as watching) I don't think any of these statements (or most) are controversial and this is how I rate them - not by goal stats, trophies or narrative. If others rate by the latter stuff then I can see why they'd think Ronaldo was closer than I do.

Peace.

 

[Andresito]

Would like to see @Fati_Future_BallonDor counter arguments to these posts other than the usual "let's appreciate both".