Hans-Dieter Flick

[serghei]

No its a clear point on players improving.

Will Xavi get credit given this season if these players win the league or CL?

The answer to that is clearly yes by other posts.

Pedri is a clear example of player trsnsformed so far this season to look at.

Of course Xavi deserves some credit, since it's pretty much the same team with the same youngsters he promoted and/or developed. Cubarsi, Balde, Fermin, Gavi, Pedri, Yamal. Not nearly as much as Flick deserves though if the team achieves big things with him.

It's pretty simple in this case also. Xavi started the rebuild from nearly ground zero (9th place in the league), and Flick continues the work, and possibly improves on it. As said in the past, it's likely Flick is another intermediary in the chain to success and a 3rd manager, should the name be right, picks up the biggest results. Would that mean Flick's work, if unsuccessful, is not important or valuable? No.

 

[MonteCuler]

The questions for me are about his defensive setup. It is bad consistently. There is a possibility that conceding easy goals will be a permanent plague of his time with us.

Either his attacking is enough to cope with that and still win, or not. If the defense doesn't get fixed, it is possible or even probable his tenure will yeld zero big titles. Which would be a massive problem.

The defensive frailty of the team is also the reason many here fear PSG, wether they admit it or not.

Risky defensive setup brings more positive impact to our overall performance than negative.

You fear PSG for our defensive fraility? Don't you think PSG fears Barça because of the outrageous offensive output? You see, it goes both ways.

 

[serghei]

Risky defensive setup brings more positive impact to our overall performance than negative.

You fear PSG for our defensive fraility? Don't you think PSG fears Barça because of the outrageous offensive output? You see, it goes both ways.

It does go both ways. However, the ideal style of Barcelona is not to trade blows with teams and the biggest puncher prevails, but to deny the other team the ball by applying our possession skills on the game. It does not happen frequently for the other team to be denied the ball. Games are very open usually. When that happens, you expose yourself.

That's all. When you gamble often, you will lose often. Winning big titles can be difficult if you don't have more control on what the other team does.

 

[Rory]

Not really. Xavi's side was defensively superior to that of Flick at a systemic level, but that came at the cost of much lower offensive productivity. The data shows this in terms of conceded chances and expected goals against. Flick's team creates much more chances, but also concedes considerably more.

It's quite easy to explain this. Xavi's side was much more scared to open themselves up and played more boring closed football (less action, both in creating and conceding chances), while Flick's team is end to end ball like a Bundesliga side.

What do you mean not really? Not really that mats had his best season ever and was player of the year in la liga that year? Or that we have Peña and a retired goalkeeper we wouldn't have signed in his prime. Because all of that is true.

 

[serghei]

What do you mean not really? Not really that mats had his best season ever and was player of the year in la liga that year? Or that we have Peña and a retired goalkeeper we wouldn't have signed in his prime. Because all of that is true.

What I mean is that the good season of Stegen and the systemic defensive solidity of the team in 2022-23 La Liga are simultaneous factors. The idea that the defense was not solid and somehow Stegen perfomed incredible miracles every game is not real. As stats point out, expected goals against was lowest in the league, indicating the best defensive setup. Also noted that the stats are impacted by losing 3 of the last 4 games since we won the title (and had nothing to play for beyond that point) in round 34 out of 38.

If anything, a strong defensive setup at a collective level is usually a factor in making keepers (among others) produce top performances. Not the other way around. It goes hand in hand. When you defend well as a unit, it helps the players in defense to be the best version of themselves. When your defensive organization is lacking, players are under more pressure, and they tend to make more individual mistakes.

To turn your logic into today, we could say that Flick's football is not that good offensively. He's just lucky Raphinha is having the season of his life and performing at a world class level. That's the wrong way to look at it. The performances of Raphinha exist only in the context of the improved collective play of the team on the offensive phase.

 

[Rory]

What I mean is that the good season of Stegen and the systemic defensive solidity of the team in 2022-23 La Liga are simultaneous factors. The idea that the defense was not solid and somehow Stegen perfomed incredible miracles every game is not real. As stats point out, expected goals against was lowest in the league, indicating the best defensive setup. Also noted that the stats are impacted by losing 3 of the last 4 games since we won the title (and had nothing to play for beyond that point) in round 34 out of 38.

If anything, a strong defensive setup at a collective level is usually a factor in making keepers produce top performances. Not the other way around. It goes hand in hand. When you defend well as a unit, it helps the players in defense to be the best version of themselves. When your defensive organization is lacking, players are under more pressure, and they tend to make more individual mistakes.

Mats wasn't player of the season because of our entire defence being more structured, it was because he alone saved a couple of big chances almost every match.

Mats is levels above Peña and a retired Szczęsny regardless, so you're not making the point you think you are. This is a massive disadvantage for Flick compared to Xavi.

 

[Rory]

Also the stats say we should have conceded 33 from the chances we conceded, but we conceded only 20. That is directly due to the goalkeeper. edit: in the league winning Xavi season

 

[serghei]

Many factors are involved. Yes, your argument that the individual performances of some players had an important impact is true. But this doesn't change anything. It's the same as the arguments that Keylor Navas of Courtois won those CL single handedly for Madrid. Really not so. Many factors contributed to those results at team level. It's impossible for it not to be so in a team game.

Over 38 league games... sample size is consistent. It's why the team that wins the league and does it clearly, that team always did some important things better than everyone else. With Xavi's side, the things that stood out most were focus, pragmatism, determination, and workrate. All key attributes for solid sides in defense.

 

[Rory]

You’ll say anything but admit Xavi had a big advantage being able to field mats instead of Peña and retired Szczęsny.

 

[MonteCuler]

You’ll say anything but admit Xavi had a big advantage being able to field mats instead of Peña and retired Szczęsny.

It has to be said that Flick has played MATS this season too, before the Villarreal game. He cost us against Monaco. It's arguable if he even would make us better. Under Szczesny we have 4 clean sheets, 7 wins, 1 draw.

 

[serghei]

It's not arguable at all for me. There's minor difference between Stegen and the other 2. With the playing style we have, a keeper that could actually pull off top saves consistently without fucking up often would be a great signing.

 

[jamrock]

We saw what fielding Pena did towards the end of last year under flick.

Same as it did when Xavi had to last season.

He looks decent but in reality, he's ass.

Cost us the league last season IMO, we were gaining form when we had to play him.

And cost us points under flick in the horror run, no obvious big mistakes, but he's just not the guy.

Which is why flick benched him.

 

[serghei]

I don't understand the Pena conversations personally. He did nothing wrong on the field when he was there, even pulled off some top games with notable saves, while comitting close to zero errors. He probably had some discipline problems, and that's why Flick doesn't use him anymore.

The only two crazy keeper blunders so far are Stegen vs Monaco and Tek vs Benfica. Actually, Tek had 2-3 others that are very close to being full blown blunders (pen vs Benfica, red vs Mbappe).

 

[DonAK]

Flick/his coaching staff might just not rate Pena highly enough to fully trust him while they trust Tek as long as he gets back to old form.
Don't need to be anything more than that tbh.

I'm more interested in what they do with ter Stegen once he returns.

 

[serghei]

Flick/his coaching staff might just not rate Pena highly enough to fully trust him while they trust Tek as long as he gets back to old form.
Don't need to be anything more than that tbh.

I'm more interested in what they do with ter Stegen once he returns.

It will be more than that if Tek fucks up and does a blunder say vs PSG in CL like he did vs Benfica. They must have a lot of trust in him.