How to approach the rebuild
- Thread starter Messigician
- Start date
serghei
Senior Member
Better yet, get them for free
soul24rage
Senior Member
-------Fati--------------------Griezmann
-------------------Messi
------------Pedri--------Gini
--------------------FDJ
-Alba---L. Martinez-----Araujo----Emerson
-----------------Donnarumma
Subs: Pena, Dest, Mingueza, Busquets, Puig, Dembele, Aguero/Depay
#wemove
-------------------Messi
------------Pedri--------Gini
--------------------FDJ
-Alba---L. Martinez-----Araujo----Emerson
-----------------Donnarumma
Subs: Pena, Dest, Mingueza, Busquets, Puig, Dembele, Aguero/Depay
#wemove
Birdy
Senior Member
IMO there should be 2 different midfields next season: one for easy games, and another for difficult opponents.
we should play with only 2 CM/DMs in the easy games and 3 in the difficult ones.
I assume we are only getting the free agents:
'Easy games' XI:
---Fati/Depay----Kun/Fati------Demb/Depay
-------------------Messi
---------------FDJ----Gini/Pedri--------
-Alba-----Ming/Lenglet---Araujo----Dest/Emerson
----------------------MATS
'Tough games' XI:
---Fati/Depay----------Demb/Depay
-----------------Messi
-----------Pedri-------Gini/FDJ
------------------FDJ--------
-Alba-----Ming/Lenglet---Araujo----Dest/Emerson
----------------------MATS
And a variation of the above, again only for 'tough games', would be 3-4-3 with FDJ as libero in between the two
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
Ok everyone, I am just going to start this off with a long post warning 
It has been a very busy week for us and I have been writing and editing this post throughout the last couple of weeks. Bare that in mind with some of the things I talk about but I will section each post with a major question/topic I am covering so it is easier to follow and not just a wall of text.
Just want a good place to post some of these ideas and hope to spark some good discussion so sit back and enjoy the reading!
It has been a very busy week for us and I have been writing and editing this post throughout the last couple of weeks. Bare that in mind with some of the things I talk about but I will section each post with a major question/topic I am covering so it is easier to follow and not just a wall of text.
Just want a good place to post some of these ideas and hope to spark some good discussion so sit back and enjoy the reading!
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
What is a reasonable and realistic objective for the sporting project next season?
We clearly need to separate our domestic and continental prospects before we can even try to answer that because we really are in different positions.
Domestically, I believe we are still very much in a strong position to compete and win. Real look to be in a tailspin right now from an outside perspective. The Super League stunt had blown up spectacularly in Perez face and after a trophyless season, their problems are deeper than even ours right now.
They have a few decent youth prospects here and there but I think our crop of youngsters have much more genuine quality long-term. They have even bigger squad rot to account for and even with Mbappe, I do not see enough of a coherent sporting project to make me think we cannot surpass them this summer. Ancelotti is another stop gap appointment, he will probably struggle unless he works some miracles there, that will open up a real opportunity for us to surpass them and put some distance on them this season.
As for Atleti, it is slightly more complex and I see them as more of the genuine challengers in Madrid now and in the short-term future more than I see Real. But I still have my doubts on Simeone.
The fact that it got that close in the end of the league demonstrates a continuance of a pattern for me. Atleti always start off hot but come February, they continually run out of steam. I think a lot of that has to do with Simeone and how demanding his system is on his players. His system also has a lot of limitations offensively over the years and to his credit, Atletis build-up play has improved a bit but they still lack threat against the elite and can be frustrated by teams who are similar to them and do not give them a lot of space to counter attack.
I just question the long-term viability of Atleti and Simeone. As a club, they certainly are sound, have some stability and seem more secure than Real but long-term, they either need to amass some ridiculous squad depth that I am not sure they have finances to secure so Simeone can continue on the trajectory he is on or they might to part ways with him.
This campaign is sure to have bought him some time but especially if they either fail to win a CL or dominate Spain for the next two to three years, I wonder if either both parties will want to continue. Realistically, Simeone needs to change some things because based on the current model, I think they have gotten as far as they can go and if they want to go further, he either needs to adapt to those needs or move on to a new challenge.
So specifically from a domestic perspective, I think with 2 to 3 solid moves here this summer, we can regain our hegemony in Spain again. That said, the gap between the top 3 and the rest of La Liga is diminishing and especially if either us, Real or Atleti really start a tailspin, I think clubs like Sevilla, Betis and potentially Villarreal are well positioned to be able to challenge for one of those spots down the line, especially post-Messi.
When analyzing this question at the continental level, it is a bit tricky because some things we are clearly behind other elite clubs on but looking at how this is translating on the pitch, I do not think it is as bad as people fear sometimes.
I would say our main competitors in Europe right now (outside of Real/Atleti) are Bayern, City, Liverpool, PSG & soon again, Milan:
With City & Bayern, I would say we are probably a good step and a half behind them at the moment. They have very complete sporting projects with the right staff, finances and squad depth to be able to compete on all fronts. I believe Laporta is doing all he can to mend the financial side of things so we have to give him time for that, not going to happen over night. It is that and the quality and depth they have in their squads that the key and we have to start building up to compete at that level. We are probably a good 2-3 years away from them realistically and that is assuming 90% of our moves are hits (transfers, sales, promotions, managerial appointments, etc.). The margin of error is slim.
With Liverpool, I would have said at the beginning of this season we were a good step behind them. Klopp has built a great project there that we still do not have currently. That said, I see him and Simeone in very similar positions right now in their careers. Klopp has a bit more going for him right now but there are a lot of similar signs showing up in Liverpool right now to the end of his spell at Dortmund: lots of injuries and a gradual stagnation in their play. This gives us an opportunity to gain ground essentially. We shall see but with good moves, we can catch up to their project by the end of next season hopefully.
With PSG, they actually give me hope believe it or not that we can turn this around quicker than most think. Our 2nd leg performance gave us a glimmer of what this team could be with the right players, right mentality and the right direction from the manager.
The biggest fault of RK is not figuring out how to get games like that from them consistently and even then, our finishing was shit and you could not help but feel with better quality players and manager, we easily could have flipped that tie. To see them struggle like that against us and then compare it to what City did to them, it made me realize the gap we have currently to reach being competitive again is truly surmountable.
Even with Ney and Mbappe, that project is far from complete and obviously Poch has a lot of work to do still. The success Tuchel is having with Chelsea right now really is an indictment of this current PSG project and to double-down with someone like Poch who is Tuchel + arrogant twat, makes me question how legit they are.
They need more creativity in midfield outside of Neymar, di Maria and Verratti and still lack truly stable back line that can glue this shitshow together. It has been a top-heavy squad since this project has started, they still have not sorted it out and right now, Poch is showing no signs he is going to stabilize them truly any time soon.
Not to mention they still show they same psychological weakness collectively and lack of poise and nous on the big occasions. Between all of this and the fact that all of this hinges on Mbappe staying, I think we can surpass them with a good summer here. The rumors of Poch trying to leave do not surprise me at all.
So with all of that said and considered, I do think with the right moves being made, we could genuinely compete in Europe next season and can actually test Atleti domestically.
Winning La Liga is a must and I think a gradual rebuilding is necessary and balancing these two needs delicately will be the challenge here. We absolutely have to bleed this young talent that we have by making space in the squad, so it is music to my ears that Laporta is planning to clean house.
Coutinho, Greiz, Bob, Umtiti, Junior etc. we all know they are the deadweight that needs to go but biggest questions are really Messi, Alba, Dembele, Pique, Busquets, and ter Stegen.
We clearly need to separate our domestic and continental prospects before we can even try to answer that because we really are in different positions.
Domestically, I believe we are still very much in a strong position to compete and win. Real look to be in a tailspin right now from an outside perspective. The Super League stunt had blown up spectacularly in Perez face and after a trophyless season, their problems are deeper than even ours right now.
They have a few decent youth prospects here and there but I think our crop of youngsters have much more genuine quality long-term. They have even bigger squad rot to account for and even with Mbappe, I do not see enough of a coherent sporting project to make me think we cannot surpass them this summer. Ancelotti is another stop gap appointment, he will probably struggle unless he works some miracles there, that will open up a real opportunity for us to surpass them and put some distance on them this season.
As for Atleti, it is slightly more complex and I see them as more of the genuine challengers in Madrid now and in the short-term future more than I see Real. But I still have my doubts on Simeone.
The fact that it got that close in the end of the league demonstrates a continuance of a pattern for me. Atleti always start off hot but come February, they continually run out of steam. I think a lot of that has to do with Simeone and how demanding his system is on his players. His system also has a lot of limitations offensively over the years and to his credit, Atletis build-up play has improved a bit but they still lack threat against the elite and can be frustrated by teams who are similar to them and do not give them a lot of space to counter attack.
I just question the long-term viability of Atleti and Simeone. As a club, they certainly are sound, have some stability and seem more secure than Real but long-term, they either need to amass some ridiculous squad depth that I am not sure they have finances to secure so Simeone can continue on the trajectory he is on or they might to part ways with him.
This campaign is sure to have bought him some time but especially if they either fail to win a CL or dominate Spain for the next two to three years, I wonder if either both parties will want to continue. Realistically, Simeone needs to change some things because based on the current model, I think they have gotten as far as they can go and if they want to go further, he either needs to adapt to those needs or move on to a new challenge.
So specifically from a domestic perspective, I think with 2 to 3 solid moves here this summer, we can regain our hegemony in Spain again. That said, the gap between the top 3 and the rest of La Liga is diminishing and especially if either us, Real or Atleti really start a tailspin, I think clubs like Sevilla, Betis and potentially Villarreal are well positioned to be able to challenge for one of those spots down the line, especially post-Messi.
When analyzing this question at the continental level, it is a bit tricky because some things we are clearly behind other elite clubs on but looking at how this is translating on the pitch, I do not think it is as bad as people fear sometimes.
I would say our main competitors in Europe right now (outside of Real/Atleti) are Bayern, City, Liverpool, PSG & soon again, Milan:
With City & Bayern, I would say we are probably a good step and a half behind them at the moment. They have very complete sporting projects with the right staff, finances and squad depth to be able to compete on all fronts. I believe Laporta is doing all he can to mend the financial side of things so we have to give him time for that, not going to happen over night. It is that and the quality and depth they have in their squads that the key and we have to start building up to compete at that level. We are probably a good 2-3 years away from them realistically and that is assuming 90% of our moves are hits (transfers, sales, promotions, managerial appointments, etc.). The margin of error is slim.
With Liverpool, I would have said at the beginning of this season we were a good step behind them. Klopp has built a great project there that we still do not have currently. That said, I see him and Simeone in very similar positions right now in their careers. Klopp has a bit more going for him right now but there are a lot of similar signs showing up in Liverpool right now to the end of his spell at Dortmund: lots of injuries and a gradual stagnation in their play. This gives us an opportunity to gain ground essentially. We shall see but with good moves, we can catch up to their project by the end of next season hopefully.
With PSG, they actually give me hope believe it or not that we can turn this around quicker than most think. Our 2nd leg performance gave us a glimmer of what this team could be with the right players, right mentality and the right direction from the manager.
The biggest fault of RK is not figuring out how to get games like that from them consistently and even then, our finishing was shit and you could not help but feel with better quality players and manager, we easily could have flipped that tie. To see them struggle like that against us and then compare it to what City did to them, it made me realize the gap we have currently to reach being competitive again is truly surmountable.
Even with Ney and Mbappe, that project is far from complete and obviously Poch has a lot of work to do still. The success Tuchel is having with Chelsea right now really is an indictment of this current PSG project and to double-down with someone like Poch who is Tuchel + arrogant twat, makes me question how legit they are.
They need more creativity in midfield outside of Neymar, di Maria and Verratti and still lack truly stable back line that can glue this shitshow together. It has been a top-heavy squad since this project has started, they still have not sorted it out and right now, Poch is showing no signs he is going to stabilize them truly any time soon.
Not to mention they still show they same psychological weakness collectively and lack of poise and nous on the big occasions. Between all of this and the fact that all of this hinges on Mbappe staying, I think we can surpass them with a good summer here. The rumors of Poch trying to leave do not surprise me at all.
So with all of that said and considered, I do think with the right moves being made, we could genuinely compete in Europe next season and can actually test Atleti domestically.
Winning La Liga is a must and I think a gradual rebuilding is necessary and balancing these two needs delicately will be the challenge here. We absolutely have to bleed this young talent that we have by making space in the squad, so it is music to my ears that Laporta is planning to clean house.
Coutinho, Greiz, Bob, Umtiti, Junior etc. we all know they are the deadweight that needs to go but biggest questions are really Messi, Alba, Dembele, Pique, Busquets, and ter Stegen.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
Amigos: Whose earned it?
A key thing to keep in mind with all of this is how important it is to keep some experience in the squad, despite the overhaul needed. We need some sort of leadership and experience so our youth products are able to make that quality jump from the B to first team. There will be players like Bailde, Nico, Gavi, and Ramos who surely will be making the jump soon and it is silly to expect to clear out all of the veterans and have some success.
The way I see it with these veterans, they earn the right to stay in the squad each season.
- Messi, clear as day for me. Personally, I would not blame him for leaving and it would be the smarter thing for him to do personally for the sake of his career. That said, him being able to have a final victory here would cement his legacy. Even with a marginal decline, he is still comfortably the best player in the world and he wants the club to be competitive more than he needs money, so from a wage perspective I do not think he will be a huge issue.
I love the ambassador role and the nature of this extension from Laporta and Messis perspective both now and in the future will be needed to help keep our standard intact. Unless we want to wait for 2-3 years to be competitive again, Messi staying is essential.
- Alba has probably been my least favorite vet over the years but he has earned in my book for another season. He clearly needs competition and Firpo aint it so the big question is if we go to the market or not. I like Gaya and Tagliafico the best as options but they are probably going to want to be an undisputed starter and it will be hard to guarantee that. I would also say that the center of defense is way more of an issue for us right now. With that in mind, I think Balde could fit what we need for the time being.
Give him and Alba six months to show what they can do in the first half of the season and then in the winter, we can make a move for another player if necessary, especially since the cup-tie rule is out. Assuming he accepts a lower contract, no reason to push him out
- It has been clear since Anfield that Pique and his status in the 11 should really be in question. Personally I think next season will be his last so at this point, he should only be coming in as a sub, a rotation CB who can fill in if someone gets injured and can captain the young players in CdR matches. We need another 2 quality CBs to be able to do this though and that is why I think it is more important to invest in the center rather than on a wingback. Overall Alba is more relevant to the team than Pique is and that is where the priority should be imho.
- Busquets had a very up and down season. Terrible and looked done and dusted in the first half but then rolled back the years in the second half. I saw some real evolution in Busi in particular this season, allowing Frenkie to organize more has allowed him to start playing higher up the pitch and his offensive output has been clear to see as a result.
It is shades of Dani Parejo as slightly more a box-to-box than the traditional DM role Busi usually plays and you have to give him credit for that. I do not think he should be starting anymore but I definitely see him having a lot utility helping us close out matches and being a rotation player who gets decent minutes. The way Lucho managed Xavi at the end of his time with us was masterful and I envision Busi being able to have a similar role here until he retires. Also from a leadership and mentoring role, I think him and Messi can offer the most in helping nurture and develop these young players coming through the ranks, with a lot of them playing in a similar role to Busi. Giving him the chance to pass that tactical knowledge down to players like Nico, Ilaix and Frenkie could be huge for us down the line
- I have been an adamant defender of MAtS but after this season I am starting to have my doubts as well. He seems to have lost that winners mentality that he had. When he first came, he had an arrogance about him that made him believe he could stop anything he faced and he produced match winning games on his own. After the Bayern match, he has lost that confidence in himself and it shows. He is letting in things that he could stop and I am beginning to wonder if he will ever get that back. It is complicated because we just renewed with him for a lower contract earlier but we should consider moving him on if he is not willing to come lower
- Finally, that leaves Ousmane. The long and short of it is either he or Greizmann need to go. And while it makes sense initially to dump Greiz because of his age, there is decent amount that I see in how Ousmane plays right now that really concerns me and makes me skeptical of his ability to really evolve and reach the heights we are relying on him to reach. It might be worth cashing in on him now in all honesty. I just do not see a lot of intelligence from him on the pitch; he is explosive and dynamic at times and once he reaches full speed, he is hard to stop. But the amount of times I have seen him try 5 fake cross/shots in a row just to pass backwards 5 seconds later is infuriating.
He really struggles against low blocks and is not nearly clinical enough to play as a pseudo-nine. Especially if he continues as a winger, he needs to improve on his decision making on the ball, work on his passing and final ball and have a better understanding of what to do against congested defenses. Especially against the low block, finding the pockets of space to keep the ball moving and 1-2 through the block is essential for forwards here and I am skeptical of Dembele learning all of this quickly and well enough for us to be betting him like we are. I would seriously consider shopping him this summer and seeing if we can get either cash or a big name swap, especially if he keeps dicking us around with this contract renewal
It would be silly to get rid of all of them, all in one go here if they can understand the need for them to take more of a backseat role now. Besides Messi, I genuinely think really only Alba could be counted on as a legit starter next season. Even if we forced them out, we would not get very much for them in this market so given they lower their wages and accept more of a secondary role, there is a lot of benefit to keeping them around, especially Busi.
Busi has deep, deep knowledge of how our midfield needs to function and passing this down to the next generation is essential to our success long term. That said, a lot of this is why I think the players we should consider selling now is Dembele and MAtS because they will command sizable valuations.
With Dembele, I do not really think we would have to sign another forward. Still have Trincao, Aguero and Depay plus I think the surprise player who could perfectly fill his void that people are forgetting is Alex Collado. I did not really fancy him when he first starting getting hype but his game has steadily improved each year.
With MaTS, the obvious name would be Donnarumma and it would be a nice move from a wage perspective. Also Inaki has looked like he needs some serious looks too.
Looking at our situation and what is available, this is roughly how I see and would handle the Amigos.
A key thing to keep in mind with all of this is how important it is to keep some experience in the squad, despite the overhaul needed. We need some sort of leadership and experience so our youth products are able to make that quality jump from the B to first team. There will be players like Bailde, Nico, Gavi, and Ramos who surely will be making the jump soon and it is silly to expect to clear out all of the veterans and have some success.
The way I see it with these veterans, they earn the right to stay in the squad each season.
- Messi, clear as day for me. Personally, I would not blame him for leaving and it would be the smarter thing for him to do personally for the sake of his career. That said, him being able to have a final victory here would cement his legacy. Even with a marginal decline, he is still comfortably the best player in the world and he wants the club to be competitive more than he needs money, so from a wage perspective I do not think he will be a huge issue.
I love the ambassador role and the nature of this extension from Laporta and Messis perspective both now and in the future will be needed to help keep our standard intact. Unless we want to wait for 2-3 years to be competitive again, Messi staying is essential.
- Alba has probably been my least favorite vet over the years but he has earned in my book for another season. He clearly needs competition and Firpo aint it so the big question is if we go to the market or not. I like Gaya and Tagliafico the best as options but they are probably going to want to be an undisputed starter and it will be hard to guarantee that. I would also say that the center of defense is way more of an issue for us right now. With that in mind, I think Balde could fit what we need for the time being.
Give him and Alba six months to show what they can do in the first half of the season and then in the winter, we can make a move for another player if necessary, especially since the cup-tie rule is out. Assuming he accepts a lower contract, no reason to push him out
- It has been clear since Anfield that Pique and his status in the 11 should really be in question. Personally I think next season will be his last so at this point, he should only be coming in as a sub, a rotation CB who can fill in if someone gets injured and can captain the young players in CdR matches. We need another 2 quality CBs to be able to do this though and that is why I think it is more important to invest in the center rather than on a wingback. Overall Alba is more relevant to the team than Pique is and that is where the priority should be imho.
- Busquets had a very up and down season. Terrible and looked done and dusted in the first half but then rolled back the years in the second half. I saw some real evolution in Busi in particular this season, allowing Frenkie to organize more has allowed him to start playing higher up the pitch and his offensive output has been clear to see as a result.
It is shades of Dani Parejo as slightly more a box-to-box than the traditional DM role Busi usually plays and you have to give him credit for that. I do not think he should be starting anymore but I definitely see him having a lot utility helping us close out matches and being a rotation player who gets decent minutes. The way Lucho managed Xavi at the end of his time with us was masterful and I envision Busi being able to have a similar role here until he retires. Also from a leadership and mentoring role, I think him and Messi can offer the most in helping nurture and develop these young players coming through the ranks, with a lot of them playing in a similar role to Busi. Giving him the chance to pass that tactical knowledge down to players like Nico, Ilaix and Frenkie could be huge for us down the line
- I have been an adamant defender of MAtS but after this season I am starting to have my doubts as well. He seems to have lost that winners mentality that he had. When he first came, he had an arrogance about him that made him believe he could stop anything he faced and he produced match winning games on his own. After the Bayern match, he has lost that confidence in himself and it shows. He is letting in things that he could stop and I am beginning to wonder if he will ever get that back. It is complicated because we just renewed with him for a lower contract earlier but we should consider moving him on if he is not willing to come lower
- Finally, that leaves Ousmane. The long and short of it is either he or Greizmann need to go. And while it makes sense initially to dump Greiz because of his age, there is decent amount that I see in how Ousmane plays right now that really concerns me and makes me skeptical of his ability to really evolve and reach the heights we are relying on him to reach. It might be worth cashing in on him now in all honesty. I just do not see a lot of intelligence from him on the pitch; he is explosive and dynamic at times and once he reaches full speed, he is hard to stop. But the amount of times I have seen him try 5 fake cross/shots in a row just to pass backwards 5 seconds later is infuriating.
He really struggles against low blocks and is not nearly clinical enough to play as a pseudo-nine. Especially if he continues as a winger, he needs to improve on his decision making on the ball, work on his passing and final ball and have a better understanding of what to do against congested defenses. Especially against the low block, finding the pockets of space to keep the ball moving and 1-2 through the block is essential for forwards here and I am skeptical of Dembele learning all of this quickly and well enough for us to be betting him like we are. I would seriously consider shopping him this summer and seeing if we can get either cash or a big name swap, especially if he keeps dicking us around with this contract renewal
It would be silly to get rid of all of them, all in one go here if they can understand the need for them to take more of a backseat role now. Besides Messi, I genuinely think really only Alba could be counted on as a legit starter next season. Even if we forced them out, we would not get very much for them in this market so given they lower their wages and accept more of a secondary role, there is a lot of benefit to keeping them around, especially Busi.
Busi has deep, deep knowledge of how our midfield needs to function and passing this down to the next generation is essential to our success long term. That said, a lot of this is why I think the players we should consider selling now is Dembele and MAtS because they will command sizable valuations.
With Dembele, I do not really think we would have to sign another forward. Still have Trincao, Aguero and Depay plus I think the surprise player who could perfectly fill his void that people are forgetting is Alex Collado. I did not really fancy him when he first starting getting hype but his game has steadily improved each year.
With MaTS, the obvious name would be Donnarumma and it would be a nice move from a wage perspective. Also Inaki has looked like he needs some serious looks too.
Looking at our situation and what is available, this is roughly how I see and would handle the Amigos.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
The Koeman Situation
Regarding his continuity as our manager, there are certainly things to consider on both sides regarding this decision:
Pros:
- It has been a very erratic few years since Lucho has left. Even during the Valverde era, there was so much turmoil that we never really had a sense of stability and improvement. We have had different managers with slightly different approaches since and we cannot continue to cycle through manger after manger each year. Keeping Koeman right now could help stabilize the club in this sense while we continue to mend the other wounds left from Barto
- The man has very marginally overachieved with this squad, all things considered. We all thought we would not win anything at the beginning of the season and he came in at a time when no one else would. He did step up and represented the club after Barto resigned and that deserves credit. He has improved the squad too, we are fitter and until the last international break before the final run-in for the season, we were improving. Objectively, we are a better team now than we were at the beginning of the season and that is the first time we can really say that since Lucho, if we are being honest here
- Similarly to last summer, there is not a ton of great options in the market available for a replacement who are world class. Ones who are proven will be virtually impossible to get right now or we will have to take a risk on someone less proven. Also regarding the market, Koeman did not have key pieces due to our financial situation so it was always going to be difficult to achieve something when we handed our La Liga merchant striker to our biggest rivals for peanuts and did not come up with a viable replacement. What would it say overall to other managers if we dumped him now after not giving him the tools to succeed?
Cons:
- Everyone knows about his big game performances but the ones that were the most damaging were the results against Juve & Granada. Sure, our players sold across the pitch in those matches but the way he managed those matches are a concern moving forward. We let a bang average Juve look like world-beaters, Ronald just watched as Juve wrecked havoc on the wings and did not react at all to us facing a tactical mismatch. Against Granada, it was a similar situation but this time he lost his head and got sent off in a vital moment in our season. This is heat of the moment stuff where he is freezing up and losing his head. To his credit, I say his tactical preparation, training of the squad and setup prior to a match is not bad at all. It continues to be how he reads matches in real time, how he reacts and when he makes and what subs he makes that concern me long-term. No amount of summer reflection or stern words from Laporta can necessarily fix that
- I see a bit of history repeating itself right now to a lesser degree with how things are going now and his spell with Valencia. I love Pep to death but he always plays favorites and at times, it blows up in his face. Seems to be happening again at City and I feel like Koeman is guilty of the same problem. Thankfully he is not spending any money on these transfers but he has spent big in the past and came up woefully short in more than one instance. Aguero is not bad at all, Depay is okay but has potential to work but Gini really worries me. And all of this is way deeper than just Puig, it is Moriba, Nico and all of the other young midfield talents we have coming down the pipes, Gini is going to get in the way of a lot of players true ability to get playing time.
Especially since this is the player Koeman has wanted the most since he got here, he is going to play him into the ground, in different positions and it could drive away key players we will need in the very near future. We are lucky this is happening now because if he had got his wish last summer, we would not have even been able to see Pedri blossom like he has most likely. We already have a problem with bloated egos in the dressing room who do not do enough and just looking at his track record, it looks like Koeman would double-down a veteran approach in a time when we need change and fresh players and ideas. He is terribly stubborn as well so I just fear that even if Depay, Aguero and or Gini start stinking it up like others have here, he will not do anything due to how he plays favorites and how stubborn he has already shown himself to be
- From a tactical perspective, I am skeptical is he is imaginative and brave enough to really move us forward. It is a bit of driving a Ferrari like a Fiat to use a metaphor. He is similar to Valverde with his ideas but he at least has an idea of what to do offensively outside of idk, pass it to Messi and he prepares us better. The problem is that a balanced, more defensive and pragmatic approach to total football has been shown and found out by other clubs in Europe. Plus, the younger squad we have now and the profile of players we have now allows for a more proactive approach that is more in line with what we have done in the past. We have some serious catching up to do and we need to start shifting our general tactical approach to how we are going to play post-Messi. With that in mind, a balanced, pragmatic approach that relies on veterans to grind out results is not going do us any favors catching us up
With all of this in mind, it really was a toin-coss in terms of what to do with Koeman. What is clear in terms of Laporta and his opinion of him is that he does not like the overall approach from Koeman and that he is not his preferred option.
I love Joan to death for sitting down with the man, explaining what he expects and trying to see if Koeman can adapt to his demands. But it feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole and especially considering how headstrong and stubborn Koeman is, I am skeptical of him being receptive and adaptive to this sort of criticism, when it was an open secret that Laporta was really pushing for Flick. Idk we will see how he does this season.
The 1 billion dollar question with the idea of getting rid of Koeman is who comes next then and coupled with the lack of at least proven options that could step in right now and the payout we would owe to Koeman, I see Laporta reluctantly holding on to him right now. He is on incredibly thin ice with me and probably Laporta and if say by mid-October, we are showing any sort of stuttering or bad form after all of this, he absolutely must go, then and there.
At this point in time of writing this post, there is only one available coach who has a profile to come in and it is Antonio Conte. I am a bit surprised Real passed on him, if Poch goes, maybe he will move to PSG but that is a big if.
His European track record, general style and lack of La Liga experience are obvious drawbacks. I have just waxed lyrical about why a pragmatic approach will not help us long-term, I prefer someone who has a better vision for the club long term but it comes back to what is the objective? If Laporta is more in favor of leaning a bit more towards getting the most out of Messi now and dealing with a big rebuild down the line, Conte could do what Koeman is doing now and is an interesting prospect to consider.
I am generally not a fan of these sort of suggestions but with Conte, he is an astute tactician and motivator and this can make up for the drawbacks I have already mentioned.
If you look at Chelsea, so much of the success they are having right now is due to the foundations he laid there. He brought in key players that have had success with him and after he has left and the way he took the Premier League by storm with all of the class managers and sides there at that time was impressive. He had half the league copying his tactics by Christmas once everyone saw just how good and hard to beat it was. Tuchel has taken a very similar approach with some more offensive distinctions and won a Champions League with a misfiring striker.
Here, Conte again would need to tweak things and be more offensive here but his tactics would not be a bad continuation from Koeman. His 3 back systems he tends to use are very similar to what Koeman has been doing and I think he would be able to get more out of the players and a system like that here than Koeman could.
Barring how Inter performed this season, I would also say Conte at times has struggled in Europe a bit due to some bad luck and underperforming players. And with the talent he would have here, I think there are some serious things to consider in regards to him being an option here.
The odds are very slim at this stage of the game but he really is an intriguing prospect the more you think about it.
All of that being said, my personal opinion was that we move on from Koeman in favor of starting the long-term rebuild now with a new manager. That said the financial situation of having to pay out Koeman and then pay a new manger, especially someone like Conte, is why he ended up staying in the end I am sure.
Regarding his continuity as our manager, there are certainly things to consider on both sides regarding this decision:
Pros:
- It has been a very erratic few years since Lucho has left. Even during the Valverde era, there was so much turmoil that we never really had a sense of stability and improvement. We have had different managers with slightly different approaches since and we cannot continue to cycle through manger after manger each year. Keeping Koeman right now could help stabilize the club in this sense while we continue to mend the other wounds left from Barto
- The man has very marginally overachieved with this squad, all things considered. We all thought we would not win anything at the beginning of the season and he came in at a time when no one else would. He did step up and represented the club after Barto resigned and that deserves credit. He has improved the squad too, we are fitter and until the last international break before the final run-in for the season, we were improving. Objectively, we are a better team now than we were at the beginning of the season and that is the first time we can really say that since Lucho, if we are being honest here
- Similarly to last summer, there is not a ton of great options in the market available for a replacement who are world class. Ones who are proven will be virtually impossible to get right now or we will have to take a risk on someone less proven. Also regarding the market, Koeman did not have key pieces due to our financial situation so it was always going to be difficult to achieve something when we handed our La Liga merchant striker to our biggest rivals for peanuts and did not come up with a viable replacement. What would it say overall to other managers if we dumped him now after not giving him the tools to succeed?
Cons:
- Everyone knows about his big game performances but the ones that were the most damaging were the results against Juve & Granada. Sure, our players sold across the pitch in those matches but the way he managed those matches are a concern moving forward. We let a bang average Juve look like world-beaters, Ronald just watched as Juve wrecked havoc on the wings and did not react at all to us facing a tactical mismatch. Against Granada, it was a similar situation but this time he lost his head and got sent off in a vital moment in our season. This is heat of the moment stuff where he is freezing up and losing his head. To his credit, I say his tactical preparation, training of the squad and setup prior to a match is not bad at all. It continues to be how he reads matches in real time, how he reacts and when he makes and what subs he makes that concern me long-term. No amount of summer reflection or stern words from Laporta can necessarily fix that
- I see a bit of history repeating itself right now to a lesser degree with how things are going now and his spell with Valencia. I love Pep to death but he always plays favorites and at times, it blows up in his face. Seems to be happening again at City and I feel like Koeman is guilty of the same problem. Thankfully he is not spending any money on these transfers but he has spent big in the past and came up woefully short in more than one instance. Aguero is not bad at all, Depay is okay but has potential to work but Gini really worries me. And all of this is way deeper than just Puig, it is Moriba, Nico and all of the other young midfield talents we have coming down the pipes, Gini is going to get in the way of a lot of players true ability to get playing time.
Especially since this is the player Koeman has wanted the most since he got here, he is going to play him into the ground, in different positions and it could drive away key players we will need in the very near future. We are lucky this is happening now because if he had got his wish last summer, we would not have even been able to see Pedri blossom like he has most likely. We already have a problem with bloated egos in the dressing room who do not do enough and just looking at his track record, it looks like Koeman would double-down a veteran approach in a time when we need change and fresh players and ideas. He is terribly stubborn as well so I just fear that even if Depay, Aguero and or Gini start stinking it up like others have here, he will not do anything due to how he plays favorites and how stubborn he has already shown himself to be
- From a tactical perspective, I am skeptical is he is imaginative and brave enough to really move us forward. It is a bit of driving a Ferrari like a Fiat to use a metaphor. He is similar to Valverde with his ideas but he at least has an idea of what to do offensively outside of idk, pass it to Messi and he prepares us better. The problem is that a balanced, more defensive and pragmatic approach to total football has been shown and found out by other clubs in Europe. Plus, the younger squad we have now and the profile of players we have now allows for a more proactive approach that is more in line with what we have done in the past. We have some serious catching up to do and we need to start shifting our general tactical approach to how we are going to play post-Messi. With that in mind, a balanced, pragmatic approach that relies on veterans to grind out results is not going do us any favors catching us up
With all of this in mind, it really was a toin-coss in terms of what to do with Koeman. What is clear in terms of Laporta and his opinion of him is that he does not like the overall approach from Koeman and that he is not his preferred option.
I love Joan to death for sitting down with the man, explaining what he expects and trying to see if Koeman can adapt to his demands. But it feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole and especially considering how headstrong and stubborn Koeman is, I am skeptical of him being receptive and adaptive to this sort of criticism, when it was an open secret that Laporta was really pushing for Flick. Idk we will see how he does this season.
The 1 billion dollar question with the idea of getting rid of Koeman is who comes next then and coupled with the lack of at least proven options that could step in right now and the payout we would owe to Koeman, I see Laporta reluctantly holding on to him right now. He is on incredibly thin ice with me and probably Laporta and if say by mid-October, we are showing any sort of stuttering or bad form after all of this, he absolutely must go, then and there.
At this point in time of writing this post, there is only one available coach who has a profile to come in and it is Antonio Conte. I am a bit surprised Real passed on him, if Poch goes, maybe he will move to PSG but that is a big if.
His European track record, general style and lack of La Liga experience are obvious drawbacks. I have just waxed lyrical about why a pragmatic approach will not help us long-term, I prefer someone who has a better vision for the club long term but it comes back to what is the objective? If Laporta is more in favor of leaning a bit more towards getting the most out of Messi now and dealing with a big rebuild down the line, Conte could do what Koeman is doing now and is an interesting prospect to consider.
I am generally not a fan of these sort of suggestions but with Conte, he is an astute tactician and motivator and this can make up for the drawbacks I have already mentioned.
If you look at Chelsea, so much of the success they are having right now is due to the foundations he laid there. He brought in key players that have had success with him and after he has left and the way he took the Premier League by storm with all of the class managers and sides there at that time was impressive. He had half the league copying his tactics by Christmas once everyone saw just how good and hard to beat it was. Tuchel has taken a very similar approach with some more offensive distinctions and won a Champions League with a misfiring striker.
Here, Conte again would need to tweak things and be more offensive here but his tactics would not be a bad continuation from Koeman. His 3 back systems he tends to use are very similar to what Koeman has been doing and I think he would be able to get more out of the players and a system like that here than Koeman could.
Barring how Inter performed this season, I would also say Conte at times has struggled in Europe a bit due to some bad luck and underperforming players. And with the talent he would have here, I think there are some serious things to consider in regards to him being an option here.
The odds are very slim at this stage of the game but he really is an intriguing prospect the more you think about it.
All of that being said, my personal opinion was that we move on from Koeman in favor of starting the long-term rebuild now with a new manager. That said the financial situation of having to pay out Koeman and then pay a new manger, especially someone like Conte, is why he ended up staying in the end I am sure.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
Rebuilding for next season
With it confirmed that Koeman is staying but Laporta making it very clear what sort of football he expects to see, I hope Koeman learns from these mistakes from the first season and hopefully stops with the shit he has been pulling with Puig.
He is no longer the big man here, it is very clear who is in charge now so the potential for him to start just playing the best players for our style of play, not his style, is hopefully greater now.
In terms of shape, while I am in full favor of us going back to the 433 as our main formation, we certainly cannot abandon completely a 3-back system, especially with the direction the game is headed right now.
What I like about the potential signing of Depay in particular is that he and hopefully Ansu coming back to full strength will allow us to play different variations of the 433 more effectively. Either in the false 9 with Messi central and Dembele & Ansu/Depay flanking him or with Aguero as a traditional 9 and Messi in a quasi-RW and the other three fighting for the LW role.
I am a little skeptical about Depay as a 9, I think he will function best most likely as LW with our style and squad but it could work if he is good about getting in behind. We will see how that goes as he develops here, assuming this is merely a formality at this point.
I have outlined why I do not like the idea of Gini coming in but it seems like a formality as well at this point. He is the only signing I worry about. With what is being rumored and what has been completed, I will go through our transfers for the summer:
100% Out
- Umtiti, 5 million variable deal to anyone
- Neto, 5 million + variables to anyone
- Coutinho, free to Liverpool for debt cancellation
- Greizmann for 55-75 million or a player swap
- Pjanic, 25-40 million to most likely Juve
- Junior, 15 + variables to either West Ham or Milan
- Braithwaite, 10 million to anyone
- Konrad De La Fuente, love the kid but he really does not have much of future here with Ansu in his way. Release or less than 1 million
- Moussa Wague, release contract
- Total: ~60-65 million
Swap Players/Bargaining Chips
- Sergi Roberto to Ajax or Juve
- Pjanic to Juve
- Greizmann to Juve
- Trincao to Ajax
- Fernandes to Ajax
- Junior to Juve
- Carles Alena to Ajax or Valencia
Players to consider selling if a good offer comes
- ter Stegen, 80+ million
- Dembele, 100+ million
- Lenglet, at least 35 million or if a club are interested in a swap
Confirmed/Virtually Confirmed In
- Aguero
- Garcia
- Emerson Royal
- Gini*
- Depay*
Realistic Transfers we could execute
- de Ligt
- Should be absolutely priority number 1 now, should have been the player we got from Juve for Arthur last year. Juve
need depth at fullback though and we can offer that. Couple different ways we could get this deal over the line:
1. Swap for Greizmann + Junior/Roberto + 10 million OR Greizmann + Pjanic/Lenglet
2. Any cash from our sales + Roberto & Junior
- Kays Ruiz-Atil
- On a free, the kid is 18 but he is an absolute crack. He wants to come back and he is the kind of midfielder who is so
good on the ball, he could play winger for us. Fuck Gini, fuck Aouar, fuck Gravenberch, this kid is who I want. I love Puig
but just being honest, I think Ruiz-Atil is slightly more well-rounded than Puig, his final ball is very good for his age. There
have been a few quite rumblings recently in the media about him wanting a return so I would love to sneak him out from
underneath PSG, real quietly this summer. Watching him next to either Pedri or Puig in midfield would be a joy to behold
- Lisandro Martinez
- Perfect player to replace Umtiti and will allow us to get rid of Lenglet if we want to down the line. Been reported we
could get him for 25 million. We could either pay them the 25 outright or offer Trincao, Matheus and/or Sergi Roberto,
players I am sure they would be interested in
- Gaya OR Tagliafico
- I mentioned earlier in this post, I think it is way, way more important this summer getting our spine stronger. Always will
be La Mas?a first so I really do not want signings that block promising players we already have, especially considering the
financial situation we are in. I really want to get a good look at Bailde in the first team and I am concerned a big LB
signing will block his playing time. Also, we need to keep in mind Dest. I would argue some of his best displays for us
have been at LB, a bit like Adriano if you remember him, can offer us legit goal threat as a LB since he could cut in and
shoot on his strong foot. That is why any money we raise on sales should go immediately to getting two CBs, I just see it
as a higher priority when looking at who we have in the club now. All that said, if we have money left over after the CBs,
Gaya or Tagliafico would be solid options to truly challenge Alba and they should be around the same price. Something
like 10-15 million + Alena/Roberto/Trincao
- Gianluigi Donnarumma
- He is simply too big of a prize and opportunity in the market not to try for him. You could argue MAtS played some of his
best football with us when he was competing with Bravo. If I am being brutally honest about MAtS, sure this season the
injury he was playing through might have affected his displays, especially coming off the line. But there were quite a few
goals he conceded that were very saveable. He is not getting any younger and Donnarumma has age on his side. The
lowest priority for me because we should promote Inaki irrespective and he might be able to do the same job but even if
it did not work out with Donnarumma down the line, we could sell him for quite a sizeable transfer
Obviously, if we get a big transfer over the line like both Dembele and Greizmann, we go all in for Haaland but looking at how unlikely it will be we get close to 200 million for them both, I think even if we sell other big names I mentioned (MAtS, Lenglet etc.), we just bank the transfer fees, settle our books and save up to make a final push for Haaland so we can get in early and get the deal done before competition really heats up.
With player swaps and the ~50ish million we will get for the obvious players we will sell on, I think we could realistically get these deals done.
Promotions:
- Alejandro Bailde
- Nico Gonzalez
- Alex Collado
Way I see it in summary:
- de Ligt for Pique, long-term
- Martinez for Umtiti and Lenglet
- Kays Ruiz-Atil for Alena/Depth
- Gini for Pjanic (assuming he comes, if not Kays replaces Pjanic)
- Depay & Aguero for Greizmann
- Emerson for Roberto
- Alex Collado for Trincao and potentially Dembele
- Nico for Busi, long-term
- Bailde and potentially Gaya/Tagliafico for Alba, long-term
With all of this in mind, here would be our depth chart for next season:
GK: MAtS/Donnarumma*, Inaki
RB: Emerson Royal, Dest
CB: de Ligt, Araujo, Garcia, Martinez/Lenglet, Mingueza, Pique
LB: Alba, Gaya/Tagliafico*, Bailde/Dest
DM: de Jong, Busi, Nico, Gini*
B2B/Control CM: Puig, de Jong/Gini*, Moriba
Iniesta 8/Modern 10 CM: Pedri, Kays, Moriba, Puig
LW: Ansu, Depay, Dembele*, Kays
RW: Messi, Dembele*, Collado
CF: Aguero, Depay, Messi
With it confirmed that Koeman is staying but Laporta making it very clear what sort of football he expects to see, I hope Koeman learns from these mistakes from the first season and hopefully stops with the shit he has been pulling with Puig.
He is no longer the big man here, it is very clear who is in charge now so the potential for him to start just playing the best players for our style of play, not his style, is hopefully greater now.
In terms of shape, while I am in full favor of us going back to the 433 as our main formation, we certainly cannot abandon completely a 3-back system, especially with the direction the game is headed right now.
What I like about the potential signing of Depay in particular is that he and hopefully Ansu coming back to full strength will allow us to play different variations of the 433 more effectively. Either in the false 9 with Messi central and Dembele & Ansu/Depay flanking him or with Aguero as a traditional 9 and Messi in a quasi-RW and the other three fighting for the LW role.
I am a little skeptical about Depay as a 9, I think he will function best most likely as LW with our style and squad but it could work if he is good about getting in behind. We will see how that goes as he develops here, assuming this is merely a formality at this point.
I have outlined why I do not like the idea of Gini coming in but it seems like a formality as well at this point. He is the only signing I worry about. With what is being rumored and what has been completed, I will go through our transfers for the summer:
100% Out
- Umtiti, 5 million variable deal to anyone
- Neto, 5 million + variables to anyone
- Coutinho, free to Liverpool for debt cancellation
- Greizmann for 55-75 million or a player swap
- Pjanic, 25-40 million to most likely Juve
- Junior, 15 + variables to either West Ham or Milan
- Braithwaite, 10 million to anyone
- Konrad De La Fuente, love the kid but he really does not have much of future here with Ansu in his way. Release or less than 1 million
- Moussa Wague, release contract
- Total: ~60-65 million
Swap Players/Bargaining Chips
- Sergi Roberto to Ajax or Juve
- Pjanic to Juve
- Greizmann to Juve
- Trincao to Ajax
- Fernandes to Ajax
- Junior to Juve
- Carles Alena to Ajax or Valencia
Players to consider selling if a good offer comes
- ter Stegen, 80+ million
- Dembele, 100+ million
- Lenglet, at least 35 million or if a club are interested in a swap
Confirmed/Virtually Confirmed In
- Aguero
- Garcia
- Emerson Royal
- Gini*
- Depay*
Realistic Transfers we could execute
- de Ligt
- Should be absolutely priority number 1 now, should have been the player we got from Juve for Arthur last year. Juve
need depth at fullback though and we can offer that. Couple different ways we could get this deal over the line:
1. Swap for Greizmann + Junior/Roberto + 10 million OR Greizmann + Pjanic/Lenglet
2. Any cash from our sales + Roberto & Junior
- Kays Ruiz-Atil
- On a free, the kid is 18 but he is an absolute crack. He wants to come back and he is the kind of midfielder who is so
good on the ball, he could play winger for us. Fuck Gini, fuck Aouar, fuck Gravenberch, this kid is who I want. I love Puig
but just being honest, I think Ruiz-Atil is slightly more well-rounded than Puig, his final ball is very good for his age. There
have been a few quite rumblings recently in the media about him wanting a return so I would love to sneak him out from
underneath PSG, real quietly this summer. Watching him next to either Pedri or Puig in midfield would be a joy to behold
- Lisandro Martinez
- Perfect player to replace Umtiti and will allow us to get rid of Lenglet if we want to down the line. Been reported we
could get him for 25 million. We could either pay them the 25 outright or offer Trincao, Matheus and/or Sergi Roberto,
players I am sure they would be interested in
- Gaya OR Tagliafico
- I mentioned earlier in this post, I think it is way, way more important this summer getting our spine stronger. Always will
be La Mas?a first so I really do not want signings that block promising players we already have, especially considering the
financial situation we are in. I really want to get a good look at Bailde in the first team and I am concerned a big LB
signing will block his playing time. Also, we need to keep in mind Dest. I would argue some of his best displays for us
have been at LB, a bit like Adriano if you remember him, can offer us legit goal threat as a LB since he could cut in and
shoot on his strong foot. That is why any money we raise on sales should go immediately to getting two CBs, I just see it
as a higher priority when looking at who we have in the club now. All that said, if we have money left over after the CBs,
Gaya or Tagliafico would be solid options to truly challenge Alba and they should be around the same price. Something
like 10-15 million + Alena/Roberto/Trincao
- Gianluigi Donnarumma
- He is simply too big of a prize and opportunity in the market not to try for him. You could argue MAtS played some of his
best football with us when he was competing with Bravo. If I am being brutally honest about MAtS, sure this season the
injury he was playing through might have affected his displays, especially coming off the line. But there were quite a few
goals he conceded that were very saveable. He is not getting any younger and Donnarumma has age on his side. The
lowest priority for me because we should promote Inaki irrespective and he might be able to do the same job but even if
it did not work out with Donnarumma down the line, we could sell him for quite a sizeable transfer
Obviously, if we get a big transfer over the line like both Dembele and Greizmann, we go all in for Haaland but looking at how unlikely it will be we get close to 200 million for them both, I think even if we sell other big names I mentioned (MAtS, Lenglet etc.), we just bank the transfer fees, settle our books and save up to make a final push for Haaland so we can get in early and get the deal done before competition really heats up.
With player swaps and the ~50ish million we will get for the obvious players we will sell on, I think we could realistically get these deals done.
Promotions:
- Alejandro Bailde
- Nico Gonzalez
- Alex Collado
Way I see it in summary:
- de Ligt for Pique, long-term
- Martinez for Umtiti and Lenglet
- Kays Ruiz-Atil for Alena/Depth
- Gini for Pjanic (assuming he comes, if not Kays replaces Pjanic)
- Depay & Aguero for Greizmann
- Emerson for Roberto
- Alex Collado for Trincao and potentially Dembele
- Nico for Busi, long-term
- Bailde and potentially Gaya/Tagliafico for Alba, long-term
With all of this in mind, here would be our depth chart for next season:
GK: MAtS/Donnarumma*, Inaki
RB: Emerson Royal, Dest
CB: de Ligt, Araujo, Garcia, Martinez/Lenglet, Mingueza, Pique
LB: Alba, Gaya/Tagliafico*, Bailde/Dest
DM: de Jong, Busi, Nico, Gini*
B2B/Control CM: Puig, de Jong/Gini*, Moriba
Iniesta 8/Modern 10 CM: Pedri, Kays, Moriba, Puig
LW: Ansu, Depay, Dembele*, Kays
RW: Messi, Dembele*, Collado
CF: Aguero, Depay, Messi
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