Is it time to ditch possession football and build up something from the ground up?

[Luftstalag14]

Great and very intelligent discussion we have here, guys. Kudos to all!

 

[Luftstalag14]

How do you define possession play?

If we want to have 70% of the ball every game regardless of the opposition then I feel only Pep can achieve the best results possible. Especially with the team we have, where most players are 170cm tall and only 2 or 3 are taller. Which means we offer absolutely no set piece threat (while being vulnerable in defensive set pieces) and we aren't able to play high crosses because no one can head the ball. When you limit yourself that much, you need to have a very detailed and clear plan of what to do tactically and Pep is simply the best at that.

People say that the Barca team of 10/11 is the best side ever. But it's the 08/09 team that actually won every competition it entered. The 10/11 team was better technically but in my eyes the Treble winning team had more to offer. They were strong in set pieces, were able to counter attack while obviously able to keep the ball.

Bayern under Heynckes were also a possession team. But they were a complete team, just like Barca 08/09 were. They tried to dominate possession every game but they used it effectively. Against Arsenal and Barcelona in the Champions League they gave up possession because they knew they could hurt those teams on the counter attack, and they did.

So in my eyes, it's about the interpretation of "possession play" and how extremely you want to follow the philosophy. Depending on the interpretation, it can work. But knowing Barcelona, it probably won't, because having less possession is probably seen as a humiliation here. Just like when Martino had 46% of the ball against Rayo Vallecano but won 4-0. Unless we get rid of that way of thinking, we will always chase Pep's shadow.

 

[Bertus]

It's good that you paved the way for this argument.

The only existing contrast is that Barça is deep rooted in an ideal of possession football, mainly imo because it is the "purest" version of the game, and guarantees (in theory and often in practice) a beautiful show.
No club is more possessed by this concept, and no team has pushed it as far as Guardiola's barça (not considering current bayern).

As a result, after the initial gore fest that was most of 2008-2011, opposing teams started parking the bus almost every single game, resulting in some of the most asymmetrical games ever played. Needless to say "how to beat barça" has been one of the trendiest question in world football, and coaches have become very experienced at it.

After years of facing this kind of opposition, even substantial tactical variations may not be enough to cut it nearly every time, like we want to.

Then you have to consider the quality of the opposition. 2nd season Mourinho's Madrid, Heynckes' Bayern, Guardiola's bayern are extremely strong teams able to beat us without betting it all on 2 or 3 counters and set-pieces. Losing to them is not a disproval of possession style imo (fact with guardiola's bayern ofc)

And then, we have our own problems: inability to play just as fast as before, somewhat less pressure to get the ball back high up the pitch (though better this season), along with individual decline, Xavi's being imo more important than anyone else's. Even fucking dani alves. Xavi remains far superior in his way, and didn't decline as much as Alves, but the impact on the flow of play is big. We lack that half-second that used to constantly create chances.

So all in all, barça's decline is not just about Pep's legacy.


Now is perpetuating possession football "living in Guardiola's shadow" ?
No. That tradition is deep-rooted and legitimate, until it becomes obvious we would be better off with a radically different style of play, which it isn't, at least with our current crop of players (Busi, Dani, Xavi, Iniesta come to mind)
And with the transfer ban, I don't see how that situation could resolve itself soon.

But would it be okay, in theory, to switch to counter-attacking tactics if they offer a real better chance of winning? That's almost a matter of life philosophy . It's also a matter of personal taste. I would be fine with it if the output is enjoyable to watch.

But the sole fact that one needs to ask that question regarding barça shows how difficult it would be to change.

And of course, our entire academies are all cut from the same cloth, driven with the same game plans, which is btw an incredible asset for a club.

So really, it would be a revolution, and though I'm french I don't like revolutions that much .
I also think neither Tito nor Tata had enough time/freedom to do what they want. I'm still reserving judgment on Enrique. Di Matteo won the freaking CL.

All in all, would I be ok with it ? Yes.
Do I want it? No.

Great contribution to the thread.

It's nearly midnight here and I sadly can't reply in details right now. But merci , that was a good read


edit: good night everyone. Will be back tomorrow to see how this thread is going

 

[khaled_a_d]

do we have possession for the sack of it?
I think Pep football isn't about having the ball,it is about not allowing the opposition to have it.the difference is that in the later you don't let opponents move the ball or being able to attack you,applying pressure all over the field in crazy way .once have the ball move it fast,players moving ,shifting & rotating in the pitch that it is tough for opposition to even predict and take the ball while you are keep on attacking them
The former?it is moving the ball around the pitch trying to find a crack in the opposition defense
In recent years we are falling from Pep "total football"into more boring football.not due to the approach rather the inability to do it anymore
That could need huge change in the team,whether in applying the same approach or moving to another one .I don't know which direction we are heading .as I said many times that is due to lack of a sporting project

_________________________________________________

I think this team need to ditch its midfield players at least
BBZ8800 had many good posts about the team need really making huge changes in between eras
I think it is time to abandon our 3 most amazing midfield trio:Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets
Xavi is a legend ,no doubt .he still gives us gr8 games but I don't think he is giving us gr8 season .he showed that against RM for example
Iniesta ,again a legend .him along Xavi are in in the discussion of best Spanish player ever.but by the end of the season he will be 31 .Iniesta is a magician but he is not consistent as b4,slowly showing the signs of declining
Busquets : gr8 player ,one of my favorite .but he has not been in his top form for some time now ,around 2 years of being not as good as used to be is bad sign no matter how young are you ,he is no more great in building up plays ,in controlling the game or taking pressure from the defense
Thing is those 3 are used to pep football more than any other,it is tough to field players beside them(ask Cesc and Rakitic) ,it is tough to have a different type of game plan with them .we keep talking about Lucho strategy of midfield players babysitting fullbacks ,I don't like but it does seem to me that only Rakitic is truly doing it ,the 3 above plays more their own football .they can't increase the tempo of the game anymore
It will be sort of Deco/R10 being out when Pep came .he just needed them out to open space for his own ideas
We have only 9 players from pep last season ique/Adriano/Alves/Mascherano in defense ,Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta in midfield and Messi&Pedro in attack
see there,Adriano is serviceable injury prone back up .Pedro is a bench player and Mascherano is a player that every coach would love to have a guy who is willing whatever the coaches is asking him ,while Alves seems likely to leave
while in midfield we have his starting midfield still here ,2 of them is starters .the 3 of them aren't as good as 2011 or even 2013 anymore .midfield is the most important line in dictating the shape and style of play ,those 3 players are 3 of our 4 captains and it seems they are too popular too legendary and too powerful for a coach to change the team with them here .
But I honestly think that we will need to move away from them by summer of 2016 maximum.Xavi could very well move to MLS next summer .but we might have tough decision to do with the other too

One last thing,now we have only 9 players from Barca Pep with 2 of them(Alves&Xavi) likely to leave next summer ,we have 3rd coach in his post era .we are playing less like Pep's football .we are moving on from the Pep era and experiment whether we are intentionally doing it or not .once having a good competent coach who gets us trophies(not necessarily CL) Pep's football could move from what we are trying to be into just beautiful memories

 

[Beast]

Finally an amazing debate away from how Ronaldo is doing & how many penalties he has scored , probably the first worthy topic since 2-3 years
Kudos to all involved

You are slave to the system , you worship the system like religion so you believe that anything else is false / hieratic

Not you , your players .. the old guys , the Pep boys , the fans in the stadium ...

anyhow your problems from my perspective is simply a repeat of what was said which covered almost all angles, I think the problem can be solved by reinventing the players.. in way we all know you can't teach an old dog new tricks so don't expect Xavi to suddenly not to slow down the game or look for a close by MD but you can utilize his talents more by using his best trait in a position where he won't hurt the team dynamics
for example why not put Xavi where Pirlo is ? when Pirlo was too slow for the AM position Carlo moved him to the DM holding/creator spot & the rest was history
this could prolong Xavi years & we all know his passing skills are never questioned

You do need to have a long discussion with Messi (here comes Flavia with her shield defending the flea ) , no doubt he scores a lot but he isn't as dynamic as before and probably don't have the energy for it.. last year the excuse was the WC which he still didn't do enough effort but if you will ever use a CF in a way to gain any added value & for Suarez not to follow the fates of Villa , Ibra and everyone else who was not Eto'o you do need tell him & his old buddies who still look for him and disregard others because maybe they trust him more based on abilities (naturally ) that he will bail you out but not all the time .. the one who scores a lot is (not surprisingly ) the most individualistic in his game

It makes your escape route in tight games so easy to stop as every dog & his owner know what Messi will do & from which area he will shoot , it comes down to luck + defender abilities to stop him

From a distance a departure from the tested but exposed now 4-3-3 is a must , you don't have the legs or the same talents to function as before
while Christmas tree formation suits you like a glove , which is what you try to do lately with Messi & Neymar close to Suarez than on the wings like in 2009 team
the problem is you still look for the same ways as before to open up defenses , through Messi + cut through pass .... are we still in 2009-2011 ? defenders anticipate it easily there is no out of box ideas everyone either met you before & was humiliated they learned the lesson or was instructed by other elder players who to stop you ... there is a reason the goals isn't following because you do still/insist on looking for Messi as the first option for attack ..
back to Xmass tree
you have the front 3 Suarez with both Messi & Neymar behind him , you have the flying full backs who are attacking wingers
that leaves your midfield... you can either fit Xavi to do the Pirlo role but you need an all action guard dog CM .. something you don't have IMO Raci included someone like Vidal could be that man for you .. the man who will cover the lost miles & areas left by the full backs & the more centered recovery role of Xavi (and I've seen the old dog get dirty recovering the ball many times when needed )
Get FFS true no 9.. a Pelle style , a Larsson style.. someone who can create issues in the box... Llorente would have been a great addition as a plan B .. with his heights and Alves misguided crosses ... man

that leaves Iniesta.. I think the old guys feel a little disoriented which is a question of man management & how to make them feel as important as before.. Iniesta - Xavi they both look like people going to a job they hate because it pays the bill , probably the combining factors of the exists of their pals , lack of trophies for the first time in so many years , age , lack of hunger , board fuck up , less than average new recruits (mostly )

the more you keep trying to repeat history to look for the same mold of players the more you will keep failing because football does evolve in a faster pace & what was working 3-4 years probably won't work now ... That was Pep first order is to get rid of the 3 men that defined Rijkaard era & your game.. the tricky sleazy AM Deco , the unpredictable magician Ronaldinho & the Leopard Eto'o .. he failed the last one but that year your most successful ever you were truly unpredictable for defenders facing Messi-Henry & Eto'o not Dinho - Deco -Eto'o & Giuly...

It's bits & pieces really ...but the overall picture is bleak because there is no role mode , no leadership & no self believe ..Something that was avoided when Puyol was on the pitch because like it or not Xavi can never be the man Puyol was as a leader

but what do I know , i'm sitting like all of you on the coach watching the matches... but this was the first time in years I read a topic worthy of coming out of retirement from the forum for it... kudos to all of you .. ciao

 

[instinct]

Great debate.

I don't think that it's time to ditch posession football since it's actually the only style the majority of our team knows to play. They learned to play posession based football since they joined the club and it'd be very difficult to change the whole model in every Masia team. For me, there are two ways: Either you improve posession based football or you try to change the club's philosophy thorougly.

Which options do we have instead of posession based football?
Counter-attacking? I refuse to believe that any Culé would like us to sit back and wait for our chance to attack. Almost any team does the exact same against us and the whole forum starts freaking out. Not an option in my opinion.
Liverpool (13/14) and Dortmund (12/13) way? Entertaining football indeed but I don't think that it'd be possible in La Liga where teams are focused on defending rather than playing entertaining football. Moreover, we don't have the players to play such a demanding style of football.

There is no completely new alternative for us. I think that we should take what made us the best team in history and use it a basic style of play and improve it according to our needs which brings me to my next point:

Lack of alternatives

If you think about it, our team has no alternatives whatsoever. Lucho said in his first presser that he'd try to be unpredictable but even after 16 games in La Liga, we're still as predictable as before. I'm not a Lucho hater, in fact I think that every coach in this world would have huge problems to improve our team in it's current state.
DrPepper mentioned it before. Tata received immense criticism from the press AND from the fans because he didn't have more posession in a game where we won 4-0!! It's ridiculous but that's the best way to describe our current problem. Beast said it before. We are slaves of our own system. Xavi explainend in an interview that it's difficult to regain our former success because opponents have figured us out but why don't we improve it? Why are we so stuck in our most successful philosophy? This is the question we should ask ourselves in the first place.
The fans don't cheer anymore because they remember the good years and immediately compare Lucho and Pep/Tata and Pep. There is no alternative for them, they want posession based football because they know that it brought us the best years in our history while they forget that the circumstances were completely different.
Some of our players are simply not capable of playing such an intense style anymore, it's the cold hard truth and I think many people agree that it's time to try something new.
Look at Bayern. Heynckes had an awful 2011/2012 season. Lost the Cup to Dortmund, lost the CL final to Chelsea in the Allianz Arena and lost the League to Dortmund. What did he do? Bought Martinez because he knew that he would be a player who could fill a lack in Bayern's team. He learned from his mistakes and Bayern won the treble in the next season while we still live in 2011 and hope for a sextuple season just because the names are almost the same as back then.

Furthermore, our team/our players are not made for any other style of play (anymore). As long as we have the ball everthing is okay but we find it very difficult to cope with an opponent who has more posession than us. Our team is ridiculously one-minded. How can this be justified? Especially because the signs are there for 2-3 years.

The last point I want to mention is our fatal transfer policy. I like Neymar and Suarez and I love that we signed them but we're wasting their potential. Same with Rakitic, Fabregas etc.
It's true that it was a mistake to buy Cesc but nobody can tell me that he would've been as bad for us as he was if we actually played more direct. Rakitic was Sevilla's best player and is a shadow of his former self because he has to babysit the declined Alves on the right wing. Neymar is fast and with a great technique but you hardly see him doing that because our team allows opponents to reorganize themselves in defence. Suarez is the best striker in the world but our team doesn't do anything to drag defenders away from him. The only one who excels at everything is Messi which is the reason why he has to carry a team full of world-class players on his own. Ridiculous if you think about it.

To conclude you can say, that posession based football will be our philosophy for the next N years. There is no way it'll be radically changed. However, we should focus on getting players who make us more versatile and who're capable of playing different systems. Furthermore, we should improve our system accoording to our players strength rather than try to fit them in a system. As long as we don't do that...I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel although I support the team and hope that we'll win every possible title. Vamos Barca.

 

[Hamzah]

nice to see beast posting again.

it's kind of strange because our offensive players are suited to quick build up yet our defence only works when it has a high line (even then it fails in crucial moments). short term i would change the style (ike tata did) but long term i would keep the same philosophy but in a new system, and new players are needed obviously especially at the back.

 

[DonAndres]

Always an interesting topic but this discussion in particular is of high quality.

As said before, possession is merely a byproduct of the formula a team happens to use. If a team is trying to adjust their system in its core by deciding whether or not to keep possession, well there's little potential for success in that approach. RM/Dortmund and the likes prefer quick passing sequences and play the ball forward with less patience and over longer distances-->less possession. Atleti/Chelsea like to keep a compact unit with the defensive line not wandering far from goal which means their attacks, by definition, must be relatively direct-->less possession. The identity of these teams aren't in how much possession they keep but what approach they use to win and perform. A game in which Chelsea have >65% possession doesn't mirror the way Spain or Barca play otherwise I assure you the likes of Costa/Cesc would not be performing as well as they have. Tactical systems give rise to possession statistics and patterns, not vice versa. Trying to 'radically evolve' a team's style by adjusting how much possession they keep is equivalent to trying to fix an old, broken car by driving slower: the same problems are still there, only a meaningless number has changed.

I find Barca's tactical problems to be largely down to transition, not possession. It's impossible to play quality total-football when we move the ball up the field at snails pace and rely almost solely on fullbacks to go from defense->attack. Our style mirrors that of Serie A football as serghei has noted. We build up on the flanks instead of releasing onto them, which makes the opponents job about 1000x easier in terms of putting bodies between our players and the goal, ultimately pushing us outwards. There are a lot of the times where our play is almost totally divided into two separate right/left regions: Rakitic/Busi/Messi/Alves are circulating the ball amongst themselves on the right side while Iniesta/Neymar are shunned totally to the left and don't check in to provide extra outlets and lateral transition into free space. That's a scenario that I see happening with far too much regularity and eventually it leads to Messi having to try and cut in to find the occasional over the top ball to Alba/Neymar at the times where its inconvenient.

The movement is piss-poor as well. Something that's magnified from the end of Tata's reign, for every 2 or 3 players who are on the move, making a run, checking in, etc. there are about 5 or 6 who are stationary and don't have a clue. Just watch any Bayern or even Rayo games to get a look at how total football should be approached. In those teams, everyone is CONSTANTLY moving to occupy new space and create new passing channels between lines. They move the ball swiftly and endlessly. Whenever I watch Rayo or Bayern play there are times when I look up at the clock and see that only 3-4 minutes have passed when I swear it could've been 10-15 considering how much space they covered in buildup and how much they got done in terms of probing for chances and trying to create. There's a higher concentration of meaningful work done in a smaller volume of time when you're constantly moving and playing forward. At Barca there are way too many spells of 10-15 minutes of the same stale shit in which nothing is done that eventually leads to Messi magic or a team-created half chance.

The squad is lacking as well. I'd rate priority of signings as follows: RB=CM>CB. The rest of the positions are covered well. I'd say RB is our most glaring short-term need and that's what we should pursue first if by chance we're allowed to make a transfer. Our midfield has enough players in the 'Iniesta' mould with the Don himself (declining but still reliable), an improving squad player in Rafinha, Rakitic given his versatility, and eventually Denis. We just desperately need someone who can partner that, sadly I don't feel Rakitic is capable of doing so (technically lacking and his vision/awareness in tight spaces is poor). Our midfield definitively sucks for the most part unless Xavi is there to partner Rakitic (I won't trust Xaviniesta alone in big games because of the Clasico). The fact that a 35 year old Xavi has been one of the 5 most key performers of this season speaks volumes about how lacking we are (and how good he is). Samper needs to get promoted and groomed ASAP, it's a necessity as much as a youth-excited and sentimental novelty. He and Kaptoum (the latter is far away from a role like this though) are the only midfielders within our ranks capable of taking on that role. I'll still trust Xavi for each and every big game we have considering that when he does play, he'll give it everything despite his age (his average of >11km per game has not even close to dropped even now) but I want Samper to ease his burden in the CDR and league. It'd be a lot simpler if we didn't have the ban and could splash on Gundogan with no second thoughts, but the board has other ideas I guess.

 

[Bertus]

do we have possession for the sack of it?
I think Pep football isn't about having the ball,it is about not allowing the opposition to have it.the difference is that in the later you don't let opponents move the ball or being able to attack you,applying pressure all over the field in crazy way .once have the ball move it fast,players moving ,shifting & rotating in the pitch that it is tough for opposition to even predict and take the ball while you are keep on attacking them
The former?it is moving the ball around the pitch trying to find a crack in the opposition defense
In recent years we are falling from Pep "total football"into more boring football.not due to the approach rather the inability to do it anymore
That could need huge change in the team,whether in applying the same approach or moving to another one .I don't know which direction we are heading .as I said many times that is due to lack of a sporting project

The problem I see is that Pep total football is not an unbreakable system anymore. Till proven wrong in CL, after years of domination, this system started to fail because strong teams started their own project to create new systems that counter pep's and those that are a pale copy of pep's system.

You will tell me that pep is steamrolling the german league. Ok, right, but I'm willing to bet that the longer Pep stays there, the less his system will work because other teams will start to create systems that have a chance to counter pep while recruiting players to try to mirror RM and the like to use when they have to face bayern. Just like what happened in La Liga, and also during international games since Spain makes use of possession football the most. All three failed in recent years.

As I said, I'm not against possession, but I'm against it being an absolute. When I look at pep's total football, I mainly see a group being able to control/pass the ball very fast and that concerns everyone on the field including the defenders. The problem I see with that is that when you face a team like RM, they won't go on you trying to get the ball back high in midfield or in your own half. Now they understood it's useless and it's a waste of stamina. They will kind of park the bus and wait for you to advance on the field till you reach a certain point.

This has the side effect of putting the attacking team defensive line way higher since defenders also participate to that ball circulation in hope to break the opponent's defense. Hence why it's easy to counter attack that system as long as you manage to get the ball back. It's either done by the defenders, or by the defensive midfielders that go box-to-box on the opponents during the ball circulation.

Of course that counterattacking system won't work every time, but it has a good chance to break such a system as pep total football. If I said many times here that I think RM is still superior to Bayern or Barca, it's because of that. I don't see how Pep can manage to resolve that issue, and if pep can't do it, I don't see Lucho doing better. And using faster defenders or a 3 men defense is not enough imo when you face RM and the like.

What Pep needs is a system that can counter the system used to counter his primary system. Let's see what he prepared for this year CL.

You are slave to the system , you worship the system like religion so you believe that anything else is false / hieratic

Not you , your players .. the old guys , the Pep boys , the fans in the stadium ...

What I criticize the most is how the midfield is put on a pedestal. Almost everyone here jumps on Lucho but I can see why he's sometimes doing such a thing as ignoring his midfield. Contrary to people here, I don't think he's a fool. I think he's trying to find a system that can work against teams that won't plan to battle for midfield dominance because he knows that despite having messi, he won't be able to win midfield dominance against a team such as Bayern.

RM is changeable. Carlo is not obsessed with his midfield and sometimes it's just ignored on the field. Defenders get the ball back > The attacking line rushes forward while the CBs and RBs-LBs do their thing > a long ball is used to reach the forwards or the full-backs just run forwards if they can > then it's up to the 2-3 forwards to score or not. Midfield is totally ignored. It's not a crime, it actually works and it's deadly.

I don't see why we don't see that much often at Barca. Barca has the players for that. Maybe not on the right, but Alba can do the same as Marcelo. And Messi, suarez, Neymar can rush forward just as fast as Bale, Benz, Ronaldo.

Making use of a more direct play is not a crime and it actually is fun to watch since people sometimes say that everything beside possession football is boring. It's not true at all. You can have half the number of passes than bayern and develop a fascinating football system, as seen last year from RM.

Lack of alternatives

There are too many excuses being thrown to explain why barca can't change and has no alternatives. I don't buy it. Not entirely at least.

If there's no alternative, it's because the board, the fans, just rage when another system is used. Tata did it and he was insulted in return despite actually winning. Lucho tries new things and get trashed. When I said I feel Barca is living in the past, it's because I feel no one will be happy as long as Pep and his system are not back.

We need a coach that can do what Pep does at bayern. Pep didn't care about those fans or old raging whiners that kept saying he was wrong because "he parted with the german playstyle Bayern had". Some even asked for his head. Yet he didn't care and his board didn't stop him, nor the fans.

I'm fed up with the excuses about why Barca can't change. It's not that barca can't, it's just Barca doesn't want to.

 

[Behrox]

The problem is Barca playing possession football. Possession football is for teams that keep the ball to just keep the opponent from attacking (i.e small teams). The base of the best team in the world was formed on the Dutch Total Football not possession football (although the possession came as a by-product of our domination). We have moved away from all out full attacking Total Football to defensive minded possession football hence the possession for possession's sake instead of possession with an intent to attack the hell out of the opposition. We need to go back to Total Football, our roots, in order to be our best again.

 

[Bertus]

The problem is Barca playing possession football. Possession football is for teams that keep the ball to just keep the opponent from attacking (i.e small teams). The base of the best team in the world was formed on the Dutch Total Football not possession football (although the possession came as a by-product of our domination). We have moved away from all out full attacking Total Football to defensive minded possession football hence the possession for possession's sake instead of possession with an intent to attack the hell out of the opposition. We need to go back to Total Football, our roots, in order to be our best again.

Playing too high is not necessarily good.

When I see Mathieu playing like a midfielders often during ball circulation, I always think that if we do that against RM, it will be our loss again.

When you know you can be countered hard, you should not fall in that trap. RM and the like just want you to play high, and the higher you go, the easiest it will be to counter attack you.

There are players out there that are training to counter the teams that play too high. They are trained to being able to get the ball back right next to their penalty box or even inside it.

 

[Behrox]

Playing too high is not necessarily good.

When I see Mathieu playing like a midfielders often during ball circulation, I always think that if we do that against RM, it will be our loss again.

When you know you can be countered hard, you should not fall in that trap. RM and the like just want you to play high, and the higher you go, the easiest it will be to counter attack you.

There are players out there that are training to counter the teams that play too high. They are trained to being able to get the ball back right next to their penalty box or even inside it.

I'm not talking about playing the high line but about total football (passing with intent).

 

[serghei]

The problem I see with that is that when you face a team like RM, they won't go on you trying to get the ball back high in midfield or in your own half. Now they understood it's useless and it's a waste of stamina. They will kind of park the bus and wait for you to advance on the field till you reach a certain point.

That's not Barca's position only, that happens with all active teams. Active teams right now are Barca, Bayern and to an extent Real Madrid, but mostly Barca and Bayern. These two teams will play offensive football at all costs. Barca's biggest problem in recent years IMO, and there have been quite a few problems, is the inability to get the ball back fast after it has been lost. That's partly because other teams have started to cope well with intense pressure, but also because our players don't give as much as they used to on the field. Barcelona 09-12 was a truly unique team, formed 80% with players who have been raised in La Masia, or other players that have stayed the club for so long that they've become blaugrana also (Eto'o, Abidal etc.). And just as it happens with unique cycles, after the cycle was over and the creator of that cycle left, we made a few wrong turns led by an incompetent board that refused to accept the golden era is over and it's time to act fast and change the lines. The first thing we should have done is kept Pep. Pep didn't leave out of boredom. He left because he didn't have full controll at the team anymore. Guardiola was and will be the only one who could play the system with other players. Because it is his vision, his project, his way of playing. Everything that happened after him -- add to that Tito's problems -- was an incoherent mess. We still picked up some great results because we have some magicians in the squad, but Barcelona as a unity was done. My prediction si that we have in front of us another 2-3 years of being top 5 in Europe, but quite far from top 2. Unless something big happens and Lucho start showing something else instead of pure stubborness. But even if he does come into his own, he had a bad start in the summer. Him and the board messed up with the transfer. Basically, we lost two starters and bought only 1 (not includint the keeper). Our only true signing has been Suarez. That's fucked up. Really really really fucked up. Madrid, who won the CL last year, lost 1 starter, Di Maria, and brought two instead. Madrid had a better summer transfer period than us and they didn't even need it. Their management, uncle Flo or no uncle Flo, made ours look like a Sunday League team.

 

[Bertus]

I'm not talking about playing the high line but about total football (passing with intent).

Total football lived, but you can't deny other teams started to resolve the issue they had when playing against it.

They trained how to break that speedy ball circulation. Actually, as time as passed, the more they got used to teams using fast ball circulation, the more they got better at breaking it.

That's actually why Pep is steamrolling the Bundesliga but, for now, fails against teams like RM.

 

[BBZ8800]

Our squad is gifted with technically strong players of a small stature. Possession football suits them the best. They excel when they have the ball the most and struggle when they don't.

This is not true.

Small players are Pep's invention. Part of it is genetic and just a generation of gifted shorter players (Messi, Xavi, Iniesta), and a part of it is Pep's obsession with shorter players who will pass the ball till death.
I will always partly blame Pep for everything. His era brought us so many titles, but also, it left so many problems.

Some of them are:
1. the opinion that we have to pass the ball till death and keep the possession no matter what
2. obsession with short midfielders, like they are the Barca's Dna, and opinions like: "That is the only way to win and keep possession, just like in Pep's era"
3. also, people still compare everything with Pep's era
-- we don't run like in those days
-- we don't press like in those days
-- we don't play triangles like in those days, blah blah

Anyway, about short players, the current era is probably the era with the shortest set of players ever. It worked for a few years under Pep, but now it is time to stop that nonsense.

Van Gaal's team in late 90s:
-- Giovanni 191
-- Kluivert 188
-- Rivaldo 186
-- Cocu 185
-- Sonny Anderson 181
-- Luis Enrique 180
-- Guardiola 180
-- Abelardo 180
-- Figo 180

Players from Rijkaard's era:
-- Van Bommel 187
-- Motta 187
-- Oleguer 187
-- Edmilson 186
-- Gudjohnsen 185
-- Marquez 184
-- Ronaldinho 181
-- Etoo 179
-- Belletti 179
-- Van Bronckhorst 178
-- Puyol 178

Pep's Barca is on average, probably the shortest Barca's team in recent history.
I know, people will reply now: "But we should try to repeat that, because that system brought us biggest success."

I wouldn't agree with that. I was a huge fan even of Van Gaal's and Rijkaard's Barca.
Pep was awesome, but he had Messi.
The best Barca's player EVER. And the best player in football's history.

So, saying that "short players" brought us a success, I will never buy that story. Awesome players and awesome coach brought us success, but 50% of that was Messi at his prime.
We will never know, because we can't timetravel, but Van Gaal's team from late 90s with Rivaldo, Figo, Pep, Lucho with addition of 25 year old Messi would probably also win a few Champions league titles.
Rijkaard's Barca won 1 CL even with "only" Ronaldinho, Etoo, Deco and Xavi.
But imagine if Rijkaard had Ronaldinho, Etoo and Messi at their prime for 4-5 years.
Maybe we would win 2-3-4 titles even then.

My point is:
= I don't like when people try to copy every single crap what Pep did and when we think that we should replicate everything he did, because "it all worked perfectly".
It worked good, yes, but again, some other systems, like Van Gaal's and Rijkaards would probably have a huge success also if they had a Messi at his prime in their teams.

So, NO, we don't have to copy EVERYTHING what Pep did.

The problem is not keeping possession. It's keeping it only for the sake of it. The current team pass the ball around without any purpose, and very, very slowly. That's what needs addressing.
Also, they need to be faster when they can counter. Currently, most players slow down the attack and kill the counters.

True.

Also, I have a feeling that a lot of members from this forum started to be Barca's fans during Pep's era or after that era.
So, a lot of users probably think that Pep means success.
Or, that ONLY Pep means and can bring success to Barca.
Which is nonsense.

Barca plays more or less the same style, with some variations from 1990 till today.
Pep hasn't invented attacking or possession based football, lol. He just brought it to perfection or another dimension.
But, I will repeat every time, he had MESSI, so I will never give him as much credit as he maybe deserves, because he had the easiest job of all Barca's coaches in our history. He had Messi. Messi in his prime years. The guy who could alone handle basically any team in the world.

Anyway, I remember talking with my friends even in early 00s, they used to say how they don't like to watch Barca because they just pass the ball forever.
I wanted to say: people shouldn't be worried. If we move away from Pep's style, it doesn't mean that we will play like Stoke suddenly.
Football was played even before Pep's era.
And Barca played beautiful, attacking and possession based even before Pep.

Also, how I remember watching Van Gaal's, Rijkaard's or Pep's team, I personally have a feeling that something has gone horribly wrong in the last 3-4 years.
We have never been so sterile in our Possession like lately.

We played possession football even with Van Gal, Rijkaard and all coaches between those two (Rexach, Serra Ferrer, Antic), but we were never as horrible and sterile as today.

Lately, I have a feeling that players, coaches, fans, media still live and believe in Pep's shadow, and that everyone are still buying that crap how we should do everything exactly as Pep did.
It feels as if players are passing till death because they used to pass in Pep's era and because Pep said that Possession is the best way to defend.
But then, Van Gaal and Rijkaard played possession also, but they were not afraid to lose the ball, and they actually tried to do something with that possession.
And our defense managed to defend even though we took some risks and lost the ball sometimes.

If we are not allowed to take risks and lose some balls today, does it mean that our defense/team defending is much worse than in Van Gaal's or Rijkaard's era?
Because our players used to take risks and they were losing balls and possession much more often, in order to try to organize a quick counterattack, or to try some long ranged drive.

This is how I see those teams from the past versus our current team
1. past teams=had possession
-- current team=has even more possession
2. past teams weren't afraid to try quick counterattacks when possible, even if that means that they will risk losing a possession
-- current team=doesn't try quick counterattacks. Because they are afraid of losing possession, and they don't know how will they defend if they will lose the possession when trying a counterattack (lol)
3. past teams=attempted a lot of ranged drives
-- current team=doesn't do that too often. Guess why, lol? =we will lose a possession then, lol
4. past teams=had strong forwards who could score goals with headers when needed (Kluivert, Rivaldo, Giovanni, Sonny Anderson, Etoo, Ronaldinho, Larsson, Gudjohnsen)
-- current team (even though we are getting slightly better in this department lately with Suarez and somewhat with Neymar), doesn't want to cross.
Guess why? We will lose possession (lol again), or: we have short players (lol)

Pep left a huge burden on our team, and imo left a team/system which works perfectly when everything is perfect. But when some players are getting older/injured/or lose motivation, this system has some serious flaws.

In shorter:
-- when on his prime, Pep's system was better than Van Gaal's or Rijkaard's
-- but when some problems (like losing motivation, or Messi+Xavi+Iniesta past their prime) struck us, the current system is much weaker even than Van Gaal's and Rijkaard's when those had problems

Plus, on top of everything, again, we have Messi today, and we are still sooo crap.

So, Pep's system is extremely one dimensional. And replicas of Pep's system by Tito, Tata and Lucho are even worse and worse each season (even though people will say that Lucho doesn't play Pep's style. But he still usually plays 433, he relies on possession, he uses the same old Pep's players etc)

Anyway, we should:
1. forget Pep's era
2. forget that crap about short players
3. we should bring back counterattacks, long ranged drives, headers (taller forwards)
4. change slightly the current formation, views on possession, stop being afraid of losing the ball and how will we defend (lol)