Ivan Rakitić

This entire post is a joke, right?

You seem to love spewing your BS on here like you have a superior knowledge of football than professional coaches that have both played and managed at the highest level.

Please enlighten me with an essay on how football is supposed to be played.

You have the credentials after all, sitting behind a computer is more than enough.
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
You seem to love spewing your BS on here like you have a superior knowledge of football than professional coaches that have both played and managed at the highest level.

Please enlighten me with an essay on how football is supposed to be played.

You have the credentials after all, sitting behind a computer is more than enough.

Hahaha yeah after all I'm the one who called the best player in the Bundesliga in 16/17 "a bench player". That sentence alone speaks volumes about your opinion, and then you go hide behind "but coaches decisions" when you don't want to bring an argument of your own to the table.

Not to mention that Rakitic has been disastrous in the CL for 3 consecutive years now, but whatever. You're clearly not here to make arguments just sling insults around and dodge the topic at hand like a coward.
 
Hahaha yeah after all I'm the one who called the best player in the Bundesliga in 16/17 "a bench player". That sentence alone speaks volumes about your opinion, and then you go hide behind "but coaches decisions" when you don't want to bring an argument of your own to the table.

Not to mention that Rakitic has been disastrous in the CL for 3 consecutive years now, but whatever. You're clearly not here to make arguments just sling insults around and dodge the topic at hand like a coward.

Fact is Thiago sits on the bench for both Spain and Bayern in the big matches. No coach trusts him or has faith in him.

Rakitic was only as disastrous in the CL as Messi was, but you'll blindly defend your favourites and put all the blame on a select a few players.

I know the shtick that guy's like you like to pull. You have certain list of players that play football "the right way" like Busquets and Messi who you'll go all sorts of lengths to defend and you have your scapegoats like Paulinho and Suarez that'll get the blame every time the team under performs.

The entire team has been shambolic in the CL lately and that includes your golden boys, so you might want dig your head out of the sand, take your rose coloured glasses off and hold everyone accountable for their poor performances.

I'm sure you already have your next batch of excuses ready made when Messi fails in another big match. Teammates, coaches, tactics, whatever it may be. Might want to extend that liberty to the rest of our players, even the ones you hate, or bash everyone equally.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Keep Rakitic, but try to find an upgrade. He's not bad, but he's not the Messi of Midfielders either, as in an indisputable starter. We can and should do better. Having a dynamic, faster midfielder that's able to dribble or at least get past a man efficiently and offer more forward + in the pressing phase would help a lot.

I've made a point, at least my opinion, that we cannot carry two slow or lethargic forwards in Messi and Suarez, but the same applies for the midfield. Can ideally only have one as a starter so either Busquets or Rakitic.

Quicker passing, more dynamism, more pace and better movement is needed in this team if it want to win the CL again and also survive the Post-Messi years as a top 3/5 European team.

Other teams are getting better and earning more money so the gap is closing.

I agree with your general ideas, but we need to add some additional rules, it seems.

For example, Kovacic from Croatia is faster, way more mobile, better dribbler, maybe more dangerous in attacking phase.
Yet, Rakitic is overally a way better midfielder, both for Barca and Real, imo.

In this case, pace and mobility without some mental strength, courage, leadership means shit.

So, yes, we need pace and mobility (and technical skills), but still there are a lot of other factors like mental strength, not being a pussy, being a leader, defending...
Imo none out of Kovacic or Thiago is a true leader as a CM.
Imagine our midfield Thiago-Kovacic-Busi.
Imo, Kovacic and Thiago would always pass the ball to "someone else", like: you do it. Please, you do it. Please, YOU take the responsibilty, I don't have a clue what am I doing without some leader (like Modric) alongside me.
Imo, Thiago could work with Xavi (as a leader), but when you don't have a leader and Thiago is a leader, you are in huge problems.
The same with Dembele, his personality is just not: a leader.
He can play alongside leaders, like Griezmann and similar. He can be "a supportive" player.
But if you have 2 Dembele's in attack, what then?

Someone will reply: he was a key man at Dortmund.
Well, yes, that is a 2nd tier club.
Alexis was also a leader at Chile and Arsenal, but he is a crap leader/key player for Barca.

Again, in general, your basic idea is good.
But it needs to be expanded with some additional factors.

** for example, that dude, LB Strinic from Croatia, guy is falling apart mentally in every match when he makes a few bad passes.
Mental strength 1,5/10

He has an average skills as a footballer.
But even if he was Marcelo, with his mental strength, he is just a liability for a club like Barcelona, for example.
Technical skills, pace, mobility means nothing in his case (even if he had all of those).
 
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Joan

Well-known member
80m seems overblown, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bayern tried to get him.

Would be a perfect player for them, imo.
 

Question17

New member
Hahaha yeah after all I'm the one who called the best player in the Bundesliga in 16/17 "a bench player". That sentence alone speaks volumes about your opinion, and then you go hide behind "but coaches decisions" when you don't want to bring an argument of your own to the table.

I know this forum is in awe of the man but what is wrong with pointing out that the guy is often benched. Its true, it has nothing to do with opinion, its not hiding behind "but coaches decisions" its hiding behind reality. He is not a regular starter for club or country, this forum loves him and would play him in every minute of every game but that isn't his situation now.
 

RMU ReBorn

New member
Fact is Thiago sits on the bench for both Spain and Bayern in the big matches. No coach trusts him or has faith in him.

Rakitic was only as disastrous in the CL as Messi was, but you'll blindly defend your favourites and put all the blame on a select a few players.

I know the shtick that guy's like you like to pull. You have certain list of players that play football "the right way" like Busquets and Messi who you'll go all sorts of lengths to defend and you have your scapegoats like Paulinho and Suarez that'll get the blame every time the team under performs.

The entire team has been shambolic in the CL lately and that includes your golden boys, so you might want dig your head out of the sand, take your rose coloured glasses off and hold everyone accountable for their poor performances.

I'm sure you already have your next batch of excuses ready made when Messi fails in another big match. Teammates, coaches, tactics, whatever it may be. Might want to extend that liberty to the rest of our players, even the ones you hate, or bash everyone equally.
Bang on
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
Fact is Thiago sits on the bench for both Spain and Bayern in the big matches. No coach trusts him or has faith in him.

Rakitic was only as disastrous in the CL as Messi was, but you'll blindly defend your favourites and put all the blame on a select a few players.

I know the shtick that guy's like you like to pull. You have certain list of players that play football "the right way" like Busquets and Messi who you'll go all sorts of lengths to defend and you have your scapegoats like Paulinho and Suarez that'll get the blame every time the team under performs.

The entire team has been shambolic in the CL lately and that includes your golden boys, so you might want dig your head out of the sand, take your rose coloured glasses off and hold everyone accountable for their poor performances.

I'm sure you already have your next batch of excuses ready made when Messi fails in another big match. Teammates, coaches, tactics, whatever it may be. Might want to extend that liberty to the rest of our players, even the ones you hate, or bash everyone equally.

Thiago was a starter for Spain until Hierro took over. Unprecedented circumstances and it was clear that Koke was a worse choice than Thiago every game. For Bayern he was the best player in the Sevilla series and easily the biggest reason they advanced, then the 3rd best player against RM overall behind Kimmich and James. The years before he had MOTM performances against Arsenal and assisted against RM last year, and was clearly Bayern's best midfielder in that series holding his ground until Martinez/Vidal got sent off in the respective legs. If that's being absent in the big matches, then I truly wonder how you've convinced yourself Rakitic is anywhere near equal let alone better lmfao. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and are resorting to more insults and whimsically invented BS.

Rakitic as "disastrous" as Messi? Now I know you're on some shit :lol:. Messi has his fair share of bad games but balanced with some truly great ones. He was a dominant force in the entire Chelsea series, great vs PSG in the 6-1, created several great chances against Juventus, dominated the Arsenal series in 15/16 the year before.

Rakitic has been shocking literally EVERY SINGLE SERIES in the knockout stages for the past 3 years, the only standout performance in the 6-1 comeback. At his worst he is genuinely unplayable and the worst player on the pitch bar none. At his best he was pedestrian/poor and had to get subbed off multiple times for the likes of Rafinha or Turan IIRC. He was as abysmal as it gets in those humiliations against Roma, PSG, and totally negligible in the blowout against Juve. He simply could not complete forward passes through defenders even in his pedestrian games, like the 1-1 against Chelsea. He's been nothing short of thoroughly exposed in that competition for 3 fucking years in a row.

You haven't brought one fact to this argument. Just mindless insults about how you think I view football and whataboutism with Messi. You do realize that attackers can only perform as well as their midfield allows them to right? If the ball cannot progress, then there's nothing for them to do. If Messi has to drop to the DM position next to Busquets to pick up the ball and create, it's extremely unlikely he's going to be successful in a cutthroat competition like the CL. And when Rakitic is a burden literally EVERY game it's no surprise Messi cannot play as consistently well.

Embarrassing stuff from you. Lol at that whole bit about Paulinho being scapegoated and Busquets being excused for. Go look in the Busquets thread right now and see the vitriol thrown at him about being declined, needing to be sold/replaced. Paulinho on the other hand only started ONE CL game. And it was stupidly obvious how out of his league he was when he literally couldn't provide a single ounce of utility either offensively or defensively against Chelsea in the 1-1 (got burned on his flank multiple times with no support). Even Messi was more useful/active defensively in that game. He got subbed off and didn't start another game after that. Real victim of "scapegoating" though right, he put in a great performance?

Thiago for the past 4 years in all competitions has been FAR above Rakitic in tackles, interceptions, dribbles, and key passes per game. Embarrassingly higher in fact in every one of those categories. Closer to Vidal statistically on defensive actions than Rakitic is to him. Stats, CL performances, visual evidence in game compilations; they all STRONGLY favor Thiago. So where exactly are you pulling your claims from?

Bare trash opinion and nothing to back it up.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
[MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION], I can't take those stats seriously anymore.
Suddenly, Thiago is not only the awesome creator, and an awesome controller. Suddenly he is even an awesome defender, and soon he will turn even into a mixture of a creator and a true workhorse, where he will be a better creator than Iniesta and a better workhorse than Rakitic.

Could you explain these stats?
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/9486/Show/Andrés-Iniesta
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/106590/Show/Rafinha

Iniesta 0,8 key passes and 2,0 dribbles this season
Rafinha Alcantara: 1,7 key passes and 2,4 dribbles.

So, this is a nobrainer: Rafinha is a better player than Iniesta, we "know" whom we should play in the next season as our attacking Cm.

Further, defenders:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/83686/Show/Marc-Bartra
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/12712/Show/Gerard-Piqué
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/89931/Show/Samuel-Umtiti

Bartra:
2,6 tackles
2,2 interceptions
4,5 clearances per match
0,4 blocks
= 9,7 in total
Pique:
1,1 tackles
1 interceptions
4,1 clearances
0,8 blocks
= 7,1 in total
Umtiti:
1,7 tackles
1,6 interceptions
2,9 clearances
0,7 blocks
= 6,9 in total

Now, some interesting questions:
1. it seems (according to stats) that Bartra is a better defender BOTH than Pique and Umtiti
Ok, I know, he plays for a smaller club, so they have to defend more.
2. an interesting thing is, people here SHIT on Pique, yet, on stats, he has better stats than "the world's best defender" Umtiti :lol:

Further, for example: Halilovic vs Deulofeu vs Dembele:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/299513/Show/Ousmane-Dembélé
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/98317/Show/Gerard-Deulofeu
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/120151/Show/Alen-Halilovic

Dembele:
1,3 key passes
1,9 dribbles
1,9 dispossessed
1,6 bad touch per game
Halilovic:
1 key passes
1,6 dribbles
0,8 dispossessed
0,8 bad touch
Deulofeu:
1,3 key passes
1,5 dribbles
0,9 dispossessed
1,3 bad touch

So, basically, Dembele is better in dribbles, but he si losing way more more in dispossessed and bad touch department.
So, all in all, Dembele-Halil-Deulofeu are quite close according to only these stats, right?
So, if we want a new winger, we should buy back Halil and Deulofeu, since they have similar or more balanced stats than Dembele?

If I remember from other topics, you are a fan of Semedo in Semedo vs Roberto debate.
Let's check those two in defending:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/90782/Show/Sergi-Roberto
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/296363/Show/Nélson-Semedo

Sergi:
2,1 tackles
1,1 interceptions
0,7 clearances
0,2 blocks
= 4,1 in total
Semedo:
1,6 tackles
1 interceptions
1 clearances
0,1 blocks
= 3,7 in total

In attacking part:
Sergi:
0,7 key passes
1,6 dribbles

Semedo:
0,5 key passes
1,3 dribbles

So, according to whoscored stats, Roberto is a better defender than Semedo, plus he is better in key passes and dribbles.
Yet, you claim that Semedo is better.

And the golden stat for the end, Fabregas is a better defender than Rakitic :lol:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/8040/Show/Cesc-Fàbregas
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/22732/Show/Ivan-Rakitic

Tackles: 2,2>1,5
Interceptions: 0,9<1,3
Clearances: 0,7>0,4
Blocks: 0,1>0,2
= 3,9>3,4

Further, only in tackles+interceptions part, Thiago is better than Umtiti and Pique :worthy:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/74939/Show/Thiago-Alcántara
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/89931/Show/Samuel-Umtiti

So, Thiago is not only the best creative player, he is also a better worker and defender than workhorses, plus, he could be a better defender than Umtiti/Pique.
So, we could use Thiago as a Cam, Cm, Cdm and a CB.
The best player in the world.

Now, my point is: is Thiago really a better workhorse and a defender than Rakitic?
Imo, no way.
Is Pique better defender than Umtiti?
Is Cesc a better in defending/covering than Rakitic, lol?
Are Halil and Deulofeu close to Barca's Dembele?

Are these stats really that accurate to show what a player is bringing on a field?

My problem with your post is how Thiago is suddenly a good defender and that we wouldn't lose anything in defense with a Thiago-Rakitic switch.
 
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DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

I was careful in my wording there, because contrary to what you think, I do not believe Thiago is better defensively than Rakitic. I said more defensive actions than Rakitic (where he truly has been near Vidal at some points). Nor do I believe dribble completion is the 'tell all' of a good dribbler, nor do I believe assists to be the metric of a great playmaker (nor even key passes are that perfect in that regard).

Football stats are lacking pretty badly in how descriptive they can be at times. Impact stats that exist in multiple other sports simply do not in football, which is primitive.

New ones are proving to be better. "Progressive passes/runs per 90" tells how often a player makes passes/runs greater than 5-10m vertically (can't remember which). OPTA found that a progressive pass or run DOUBLES the probability of a goal being scored in the next 7 seconds (weird, I know, but relevant).

That stat does Iniesta a LOT of justice, where dribbles/assists never has in his career. Also shows how RM dominate because they have like 4 of the top 10 in this stat (Modric, Isco, Kroos, Marcelo). Messi, as expected, dominates this stat as the best even now when he's far from his true peak and that is a clear reason why he's the most potent attacking force in the world. Also expected goals per 90 is a good stat, and expected assists (I think exists?). But more and more statistics need to be developed.

But one thing is that tackles/interceptions/dribbles/key passes do at least tell part of the story. And that is that Thiago is ANYTHING BUT the weak/incompetent defender you make him out to be. He is genuinely active and good in that regard and has been for some years. One of the best amongst playmaking CM's defensively. And it shows you're clearly in the wrong and extremely ignorant for parroting words like "short", "slow", "muscles" when it comes to defense and energy.

I never claimed that the stats tell the whole story. You just have your eyes closed to any kind of evidence whatsoever and are more willing to stick to your outdated convictions than learn something new.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
I never claimed that the stats tell the whole story. You just have your eyes closed to any kind of evidence whatsoever and are more willing to stick to your outdated convictions than learn something new.

Ok.
Your post above is ok in general.

Stats do tell a part of a story, but not the whole story.
For example, as I have said above, Bartra has more tackles than Pique and Umtiti.
Not because he is better but because he plays for a team who has to defend for 90 minutes.
The opponent enters Barca's half probably 20 times per match, while for a team like Betis, an opponent is around their box all the time.
So, Pique probably (an example) has 2 tackles out of 20 actions, while Bartra has 4 tackles out of 60 actions, so 1/10 compared to 1/15, which means that Pique is better.

The same, since Barca is a possession team and we hold the ball for long in the opponent's half, Rakitic and Busi don't have to tackle/intercept THAT often.
Compared to Cms from Las Palmas or Betis.

For example, how many times Spanish Cm's needed to tackle against Russia?
Compared to Russian Cms who had to defend for 120 minutes?
Also, Mexico-Brasil, Mexico is running up and down for 90 minutes and giving away possession (fast counters) after 10-20 seconds.
So, a Maxican Cdm or a Cm will have to tackle/cover 100 times per match, while a Spanish guy will need to make an interception here and there.

To some extent, this is why Fabregas from Chelsea probably has more tackles than Rakitic from a possession based Barca.
Bayern is slightly more direct than Barca, so we have to take that into an account also regarding Thiago's stats.

On the other hand, imagine if we had a world class RB and a crappy LB.
And the opponents will target that crappy LB all the time.
He will be involved in 30 defensive actions, and have let's say 5 good interceptions.
A world class RB won't have too much work, since the opponents will avoid him.
He will be involved in let's say 10 actions and have 3 good interceptions.

Now again, is a LB with interceptions better?
This is simplified, but you get my point, I guess?

Or imagine that you have the ball (as a player) and you have 2 defenders infront of you:
Paulinho on the left
Denis Suarez on the right

Would you choose your path through Paulinho or Denis (so, would you rather try to dribble past Paulinho or Denis)?
I would always try to avoid a big guy, or a guy who defends better and pick on a weaker guy.

Or, if Paulinho will cover me, I will pass the ball to someone else, because I can't do too much against Paulinho and I won't risk.
So, even though Paulinho didn't tackle me or intercepted a pass, he closed me down and "forced" me to make a backpass and to chose a different path.

Those are things which can't be seen or measured in stats.
Whenever Rakitic is not playing for Croatia, you can feel a giant hole in midfield in a defensive part.
It can't be measured in stats, but he just always "close" an opponent, closing him down and forcing him to pass the ball "to somewhere else".

So, Barca already has Messi who is lazy.
Dembele who doesn't know how to defend.
Suarez who is Suarez...
Coutinho who is light as a fly.
The only 2 guys working in defense are Rakitic and Busi. And those two are not enough for a CL level.
And now, guys would want to get rid of Raki for Thiago, more creative and a weaker defender/workhorse.

Thiago could work in some other universe where we would have young Messi, Pedro and Etoo in attack, where they are working hard and pressing.
In the current lineup, if you move away Rakitic or Busi, you are inviting a huge chaos.

I personally think that we will see a drop in our defense even now without Paulinho, even though his defensive "stats" were average, but imo, he did a lot of good things in defense which can't be a measured in stats.

So, let's see how we will play without Paulinho.
I don't even want to imagine Barca without both Paulinho and Rakitic with Messi, Luis and Dembele walking and resting in attack and with light Coutinho behind them :shakeshead:
[MENTION=15376]DonAK[/MENTION] said that we need fast and mobile midfielders.
That is true.
But we also need someone for 4 attacking players (Messi, Luis, Dembele, Coutinho) who barely defend, or if they defend, they aren't too good at it (Coutinho).
 
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Raketa10

Senior Member
Guys look at this stats:

Until now in 2017/18 season Rakitic has played 71 games or 4995 min. So with next two games it will be 73 games or around 5.200 min!!!!! :worthy: :worthy:
 

Icarium

Lifestealer
Thiago and Rakitic would complement each other well. We cannot sell Rakitic to get Thiago, we need both. If we sell Rakitic that is another good player we need to replace. Even paulinho left we would be in very bad state then.
 

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