I'm actually completely sure that was the case.
Ivan Rakitić
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
I'm actually completely sure that was the case.
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
This is simply put a very selfish interview by Rakitic at a time when it's not always going so well for the team overall. Will just cause more disruption.
The only reason he did this is to put pressure on Barcelona and Valverde to play him. When Vidal made those dumb instagram posts last season he was criticized and he toned it down.
If Arthur or de Jong had done something like this they would have been torn apart by the press, local fans, guys on this forum.
The entitlement some of our players display is astounding. While it's unlikely, I really hope the club commit to a full rebuild upcoming summer by getting rid of this guy, Pique, moving on from Busquets and Suarez.
The only reason he did this is to put pressure on Barcelona and Valverde to play him. When Vidal made those dumb instagram posts last season he was criticized and he toned it down.
If Arthur or de Jong had done something like this they would have been torn apart by the press, local fans, guys on this forum.
The entitlement some of our players display is astounding. While it's unlikely, I really hope the club commit to a full rebuild upcoming summer by getting rid of this guy, Pique, moving on from Busquets and Suarez.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Lol, do you even know what Occam's Razor is?
Please educate yourself better before posting such rubbish.Occam's Razor DOES NOT mean the most simple and half baked hypothesis is the most logical/correct one the way you're portraying. It means that the hypothesis with the FEWEST assumptions is the most correct one.
I can understand your urge to just invoke the name of Occam's Razor in an attempt to completely dumb down the conversation. After all that's what your entire posting mantra is based off of; just trying to make everything simpleminded and black and white. "Possession vs fast/long ball", "weak schoolboy vs physical workhorse", "forum darling vs scapegoat", "tall vs short", etc.
But your hypothesis is almost made up of 100% assumptions. In fact the only thing you've said was true in the entire post is that Barca have played bad in away games. Congrats lol. Don't act like you have had this genius eureka moment with this rote ABC's analysis of "Barca midfield = bad->FDJ and Arthur are new guys->FDJ and Arthur = bad"
You're not uttering a SINGLE word about FDJ's or Arthur's performances and how many times they've been a top 3 performer or MOTM this season, you're just assuming that they are bad because Barca have played bad. You're assuming that just because EV/Suarez/Rakitic/Busi/Pique are disapproved by the "Pep cult" that they are "scapegoats", while refusing to look at their performances which have visibly been MUCH worse. You're assuming that Messi's injury hasn't been THE critical heel of this season especially with a recycling squad.
Your analysis is made up ENTIRELY of blind spots. You'll say any type of nonsense just to spite the "cult of Pep" or "forum de amigos". Clearly turning a blind eye to the fact that every single one of our veterans is playing clearly worse, and more complacent this season, including Messi. You can't possibly accept that Suarez/Busi/Pique/Rakitic have been woeful and liabilities almost every game this season. You're just claiming that they are all "scapegoats", even Busi who you used to utterly shit on to defend your darling Rakitic. You ignore how Griezmann is completely negated by playing out of position and still adapting, same with FDJ who despite good performances is in a role that stifles his impact. You're clearly turning a blind eye to how Alba, our 2nd best/most creative/industrious player of last season, is looking like a complete shell of himself this year. Or how Messi who rely on as heavily as we ever have was injured/out of shape for about 60-70% of the season so far.
If you actually had a basis for shitting on Arthur and FDJ's performances.... You'd probably be able to point to their actual performances?
Not this flimsy, thin connection like "oh well we suck in away games so FDJ/Arthur are responsible for us sucking". Arthur literally carried us to victory in an away game against Osasuna, at a time when EV was doing his damn hardest to lose us every single away game while Messi was out. He was one of our best away performers against Dortmund and Getafe. He is also assisting/scoring at a rate higher than Rakitic the past few years while also being VASTLY superior in other phases of play than Rakitic ever was or could dream of being. FDJ has been possibly our most consistent player this season, other than ter Stegen, even though his potential has been chained by playing in a non-ideal position for him. Both Arthur and FDJ were trading MOTM awards left and right while Messi was injured and this team needed players to step up and play with authority on the pitch.
This was just a bad, bad take that shows your falling standards just to desperately cling to the asinine and disproven notion that EV and Rakitic are misunderstood scapegoats or martyrs.
So are you trying to say that the midfield is now worse because we have replaced Rakitic with Frenkie? Also that reversing this change would make the midfield play better?
The midfield has been a problem for years in terms of attacking quality and in terms of defensive stability as Busquets and Rakitic declined over the years. If you go back to last season you'll see we really lacked creativity in most games from the midfield and not especially when Arthur was playing just in general.
Away last year just looking at some fixtures:
Valladolid 0-1 Barcelona. Midfield three of Coutinho, Busquets and Rakitic. We scored one goal which wasn't assisted by the midfield.
Real Sociedad 1-2 Barcelona. Midfield of Raki, Rafinha, Roberto (busi and vidal subbed in). We scored 2 goals from pinball style shots scrapping in the box, nothing to do with midfield creativity. Real Sociedad could have easily had a couple more goals, somewhat stemming from lack of defensive capabilities of midfield.
Leganes 2-1 Barcelona. Midfield three of Busi, Raki and Coutinho. We manage 5 shots on target.
Rayo Vallecano 2-3 Barcelona. Midfield three of Arthur, Raki and busquets. We may have scored three goals but all three assists come from the defence.
Espanyol 0-4 Barcelona. Midfield 3 of Vidal, Busi and Raki, 4 goals! No assists from midfield, 2 Messi freekicks and a Messi assist. However clean sheet which is good.
Levante 0-5 Barcelona. Midfield plays well and contributes 2 assists as well as a clean sheet (vidal, busi raki with wing backs and a back 3)
The pattern continues and these are just some from the first half of the season, couldn't be bothered to go through them all. Barring a few games where the midfield actually did alright, with and without Arthur the midfield lacking creativity or being exposed defensively is nothing new. However Arthur with 2 goals and 3 assists in la liga and vidal with 3 goals in la liga is almost a bigger attacking contribution to the team this far into the season than the midfield managed altogether last year.
I don't personally believe our midfield is that great yet and think we could do the with the addition of someone like Eriksen for attacking threat and another defensive player when we need to defend. But the idea that we are weaker defensively and offensively due to Arthur and Frenkie playing isn't true, we've struggled in midfield for years.
xXKonan
Senior Member
Even during the treble-winning season in 14/15 people were concerned about the lack of control and creativity. The Madrid game where we had a Midfield of Iniesta-Masche-Rakitic, we struggled with the Midfield and we finally regained control when Xavi and Busi came on.
Midfield wise we were going down the shittier since at least 2016, the Iniesta-Busi-Rakitic Midfield seemed more of a short term bandaid that was coming apart at that point. Lucho tried to change it up with the addition of Gomes but that didn't work.
We were being cut through even with Rakitic out there, it made no difference really. He and Busi became some of the biggest liabilities in the center of the field. Both no longer had the legs to play together and we suffered due to that.
Our problems run deeper but both Busi and Rakitic, played a part in why the Midfield had decayed. Both are 31 years old but have the mobility of someone in their 40s. You will have to be blind not to see that.
Midfield wise we were going down the shittier since at least 2016, the Iniesta-Busi-Rakitic Midfield seemed more of a short term bandaid that was coming apart at that point. Lucho tried to change it up with the addition of Gomes but that didn't work.
We were being cut through even with Rakitic out there, it made no difference really. He and Busi became some of the biggest liabilities in the center of the field. Both no longer had the legs to play together and we suffered due to that.
Our problems run deeper but both Busi and Rakitic, played a part in why the Midfield had decayed. Both are 31 years old but have the mobility of someone in their 40s. You will have to be blind not to see that.
EdmondDantes
New member
Lol, do you even know what Occam's Razor is?
Occam's Razor DOES NOT mean the most simple and half baked hypothesis is the most logical/correct one the way you're portraying. It means that the hypothesis with the FEWEST assumptions is the most correct one.
I can understand your urge to just invoke the name of Occam's Razor in an attempt to completely dumb down the conversation. After all that's what your entire posting mantra is based off of; just trying to make everything simpleminded and black and white. "Possession vs fast/long ball", "weak schoolboy vs physical workhorse", "forum darling vs scapegoat", "tall vs short", etc.
But your hypothesis is almost made up of 100% assumptions. In fact the only thing you've said was true in the entire post is that Barca have played bad in away games. Congrats lol. Don't act like you have had this genius eureka moment with this rote ABC's analysis of "Barca midfield = bad->FDJ and Arthur are new guys->FDJ and Arthur = bad"
You're not uttering a SINGLE word about FDJ's or Arthur's performances and how many times they've been a top 3 performer or MOTM this season, you're just assuming that they are bad because Barca have played bad. You're assuming that just because EV/Suarez/Rakitic/Busi/Pique are disapproved by the "Pep cult" that they are "scapegoats", while refusing to look at their performances which have visibly been MUCH worse. You're assuming that Messi's injury hasn't been THE critical heel of this season especially with a recycling squad.
Your analysis is made up ENTIRELY of blind spots. You'll say any type of nonsense just to spite the "cult of Pep" or "forum de amigos". Clearly turning a blind eye to the fact that every single one of our veterans is playing clearly worse, and more complacent this season, including Messi. You can't possibly accept that Suarez/Busi/Pique/Rakitic have been woeful and liabilities almost every game this season. You're just claiming that they are all "scapegoats", even Busi who you used to utterly shit on to defend your darling Rakitic. You ignore how Griezmann is completely negated by playing out of position and still adapting, same with FDJ who despite good performances is in a role that stifles his impact. You're clearly turning a blind eye to how Alba, our 2nd best/most creative/industrious player of last season, is looking like a complete shell of himself this year. Or how Messi who rely on as heavily as we ever have was injured/out of shape for about 60-70% of the season so far.
If you actually had a basis for shitting on Arthur and FDJ's performances.... You'd probably be able to point to their actual performances?
Not this flimsy, thin connection like "oh well we suck in away games so FDJ/Arthur are responsible for us sucking". Arthur literally carried us to victory in an away game against Osasuna, at a time when EV was doing his damn hardest to lose us every single away game while Messi was out. He was one of our best away performers against Dortmund and Getafe. He is also assisting/scoring at a rate higher than Rakitic the past few years while also being VASTLY superior in other phases of play than Rakitic ever was or could dream of being. FDJ has been possibly our most consistent player this season, other than ter Stegen, even though his potential has been chained by playing in a non-ideal position for him. Both Arthur and FDJ were trading MOTM awards left and right while Messi was injured and this team needed players to step up and play with authority on the pitch.
This was just a bad, bad take that shows your falling standards just to desperately cling to the asinine and disproven notion that EV and Rakitic are misunderstood scapegoats or martyrs.
I second every single word.
It's always a pleasure to read [MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION]' posts.
serghei
Senior Member
Lol, I gave up on BBZ and I rarely give up trying to convince people they are wrong. The man doesn't care about any arguments that come from somewhere else rather than his keyboard.
At least I can understand Raketa10's infatuation with Rakitic considering his username.
At least I can understand Raketa10's infatuation with Rakitic considering his username.
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Raketa10
Senior Member
Come on Serghei I am not defending Rakitic at all. I hope we sell him in January. I am just saying our problem is much bigger than Rakitic but people tend to go blind when we are talking about Arthur performances. I like Arthur a lot but no one can claim he is performing great in continuity or that he was playing well in the last couple of games.
I really hope we will buy some top talented AM since I sincerely believe double pivot system with Arthur-FDJ and AM in front of them would be the right way to go in the future. With that being said Arthur needs to improve! He needs to work hard on his stamina, his final pass and his defending. IMHO he is not developing and improving as we hoped he would. Valverde might be the reason for that but only time will tell.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
I'll reply here.
Well, of course that there are 100s of factors.
But still:
1. even if Frenkie and Arthur were perfect=people here would have defended them, since remember: a psychological urge to have "hopes" for a better future and Frenkie-Arthur are pillars of those dreams currently
2. on the other hand, if Arthur-Frenkie were way below expectations, what do you think that people here would say? Do you think that they would give up from them easily?
I mean, look at it this way: if those two are meh or not as good as expected, then what is there to look forward to in our team?
Our core is old and done.
La Masia kids are very average.
And the only lights of hope are Frenkie and Arthur.
Exactly the same happened with Dembele for 2 years.
Regardless if he played world class of horrible, replies were the same.
UNTIL people (in the same moment) gave up from him and built new pillars in Arthur and Frenkie.
So, Serghei says that it is hard to talk with me since I am not listening.
But on the other hand, try to look at it from my perspective: whatever happens, people will say the same things and they will maybe lower their guard ONLY if Arthur/Frenkie will flop as horribly as Dembele/Coutinho.
And since that won't happen, and they will probably float somewhere in between: awesome, average or weaker than expected, that opens doors for 100s of alibies.
Since we are arguing here, no problem, let's take it to the next level.
My personal eye test says that our team and midfield is in the worst state since Lucho's 3rd season.
I'll use numbers. And they are my estimation, so don't take them as fact or something to troll about, since they are just my estimation.
So, imo:
Midfield from last season, even Busi-Vidal-Raki:
Offense: 5/10
Possession: 6/10
Defense: 7/10
Ability to avoid pressure: 3/10
A new midfield, consisted of Frenkie-Arthur-someone:
Offense: 5/10
Possession: 6/10
Defense: 4/10
Ability to avoid pressure: 8/10
So, basically, we gained a lot ONLY in press resistance.
But our defending in midfield is shakier, possession is more or less the same (Frenkie-Arthur are better in keeping possession than guys from the last season, but since they are bad at defending, they lose a lot of energy and time to get the ball back, plus we are allowing more shots, of course).
In attack, they are way weaker than everything what I have seen since Fabio Rochemback.
Now, someone will reply: but Xavi and Iniesta weren't that great in attack.
I'll use stats from 2009/10 La Liga, since this is the 1st season on Whoscored:
Check this:
Key passes:
3,2 Xavi 2010
1,4 Iniesta 2010
1,0 Arthur
1,0 Frenkie
= total:
Xavi+Iniesta=4,6 key passes per match
Frenkie+Arthur=2,0 key passes per match
Defending:
Tackles:
1,7 Frenkie
1,5 Iniesta 2010
1,2 Xavi 2010
0,9 Arthur
Interceptions:
1,4 Xavi 2010
1,2 Iniesta 2010
0,8 Frenkie
0,4 Arthur
Total, tackles+interceptions per match:
Xavi+Iniesta=2,7 tackles+2,6 interceptions=5,3 in total per match
Frenkie+Arthur=2,6 tackles+1,2 interceptions=3,8 in total per match
So, Xavi+Iniesta weren't CRAZY creators, but still they were creating way more than today.
Also, Xavi and Iniesta were a duo without a true CAM, and we usually always had CAMs in the past.
So, people won't like to hear this, but this is the most sterile midfield duo since around 2003'.
And on top of that, if they were at least awesome in keeping possession and defending, but not.
Frenkie has quite low numbers for a defensive midfielder.
And Arthur's defensive numbers are quite horrible.
And now, you guys say: Frenkie should be a pivot.
But he is quite light in this moment and weaker than our other pivots over years.
Whether he will improve defensively, we will see.
So, if Frenkie is a pivot, then our defense is shaky and then you need someone to cover him.
And who will cover him? A slow Arthur who has very bad defensive stats?
Then, if Frenkie is too light currently for a pivot, the only option is to bench him or play him as a CM.
And if you play him as a CM, what to do with Arthur?
Arthur is even worse as a lone pivot.
So, Arthur has to be a ANOTHER Cm.
But then we come to a new problem=those two are some sort of hybrids between a pivot and a CM, and if you play them both as a CMs, they aren't too creative in attack, what we can see in our matches lately.
Then the only option is to put finished Busi as a pivot, and he is dead on every counter.
So, in this moment, when Frenkie-Arthur have to play, no matter what you do, defense will be shaky and attack will be sterile.
Then people say: we need an attacking guy next to him.
Fine, that could solve our creative problems.
But then, what will be with defense?
Frenkie is light in defense for now, and he ventures into attack all the time.
Arthur is meh to bad in defending.
Now, let's go back to my first part of the post when I posted numbers about our midfield from the last season:
Raki-Vidal-Busi wasn't creative.
But it was somewhat equal to Arthur-Frenkie, since both Vidal and Raki played as CAMs for years.
While the defending in midfield was way better.
These are stats from Rakitic-Vidal from last season (La Liga) compared with the best midfield duo from this season (Frenkie-Arthur):
Key passes:
1,0 Frenkie 2020
1,0 Arthur 2020
0,7 Vidal 2019
0,5 Rakitic 2019
= total:
Frenkie+Arthur 2020=2,0 key passes per match
Rakitic+Vidal 2019=1,2 key passes per match
Defending:
Tackles:
2,4 Vidal 2019
1,7 Frenkie
0,9 Rakitic 2019
0,9 Arthur
Interceptions:
1,5 Rakitic 2019
0,9 Vidal 2019
0,8 Frenkie
0,4 Arthur
Clearances (headers):
0,8 Rakitic 2019
0,6 Vidal 2019
0,3 Frenkie
0,3 Arthur
Defending per match, total:
Rakitic+Vidal 2019=3,3 tackles+2,4 interceptions+1,4 clearances=7,1 successful defensive actions per match
Frenkie+Arthur 2020=2,6 tackles+1,2 interceptions+0,6 clearances=4,4 successful defensive actions per match
So, in this moment, stats say:
= that we traded an improvement of 0,8 key passes per match for a loss of -2,7 defensive actions per match.
Also, even though Frenkie+Arthur brought a slight improvement in key passes:
Vidal scored 24 league goals in the last 5 years.
Rakitic scored 24 league goals in the last 5 years.
Rakitic added 24 assists and Vidal 20.
That means that Rakitic had on average 5 league goals and 5 assists in La Liga.
And Vidal offered 5 goals and 4 assists.
Combined, Rakitic and Vidal offered roughly 10 league goals and 9 assists.
This season, we played 12 matches, which is around 1/3rd of all la liga matches.
They have 3 goals and 4 assists for now, but let's see whether they will reach a total of 10 goals combined until the end of a season (since Arthur had 0 goals in the last season in 2200 minutes, so we have to see whether he will maintain his scoring numbers).
So, as numbers say in this moment:
1. we gained +0,8 key passes per game
2. we have probably lost some goals since Arthur-Frenkie combined aren't scorers in this moment
3. we have lost 2,7 defensive contributions per match without Rakitic-Vidal
On the eye test: we probably play somewhat nicer with these two new CMs and we are surely better in press resistance.
But then, since 90% of teams aren't attacking us at Camp Nou, what is a use of press resistance at all?
On away La Liga games, we survived in the last 2 seasons even without press resistance, and we were murdered in a CL.
So, there is not too much use of our new skill: press resistance EXCEPT on Anfield.
So, when we sum it all:
1. we gained little or almost nothing in key passes
2. we gained nothing in terms of scoring or lost some goals with a new midfield pair
3. we lost quite a lot in terms of defending (2,7 balls per match)
4. we probably lost chemistry and automatism in defending
We gained:
1. Frenkie's kilometers
2. press resistance
3. nice ball movement on home matches and nothing on away matches since we are destroyed in defense and all over a place
Now, when you sum it all, are you guys 100% sure that Frenkie-Arthur aren't guilty at all for our team being all over the place in this season?
Ok, there are bigger problems in a team, but this change for now hasn't improved a team at all.
Yet, people here are writing songs about the best duo in the world.
Now, let's go back to Rakitic and my first post.
He said that he is not sure why he isn't playing anymore.
Then Edmond and guys started to make fun out of him.
I replied: your post sounds as if our midfield plays good this season.
Then you have 10 other guys making fun and writing 100s of random excuses.
And then you have my numbers which should raise some questions.
So, even Raki's question why he is not playing isn't THAT CRAZY considering that a new midfield plays worse than the old midfield.
Now, before replying, take a breath.
Look at Arthur's and Frenkie's attacking and defensive numbers.
And try to think about them for a while without offering crazy alibies: 6 attackers aren't moving (but Raki-Vidal played with the same attackers only 5 Months ago).
Or a midfield is crap because Messi-Suarez aren't defending (but Raki-Vidal played with the same players only 5 Months ago and had way better defensive numbers).
Or: EV is a reason, how can you NOT see that? (And again: EV was here even 5 Months ago, and Raki-Vidal STILL had way better defensive numbers).
So, yeah, I'll be the first one to point some fingers into our 2 sacred cows
Now, insert 100s of random insults, as always
** Edit: Vidal's numbers in defense are probably way higher, since Whoscored counts tackles per match and he often played only 10-30 minutes.
So, the difference lost is probably higher than 2,7 won ball per match, and probably around 3,0 or 3,5 per match.
Over 10 league matches, that is already 30-35 more actions around our box and probably 15-20 more shots towards Mats.
Or 50-ish additional shots on our goal per league season.
Those are not small numbers...
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Raketa10
Senior Member
BBZ Frenkie is not light in defense. He is much better in defense than any of Busi, Xavi or Iniesta have ever been. Problem is that he can't cover all that ground by himself since Busi is old and his football was always about control and not hard work while Arthur is really bad in defense. If we replace Busi with some proper hard working AM and move FDJ to DM we'll gain much in attack and control and as a consequence part of defending problems will disappear.
Also bare in mind that defending is not done only with midfield and defense. If our attackers aren't pressing at all it's basically impossible to successfully defend and neither Suarez nor Messi are willing to press these days and same goes for Demebele. The only one doing that at the moment is Griezmann.
While you can have one player who doesn't defend having two or more is suicidal, especially in CL. During the last 4 years we basically always had 2 or more players in our team who don't defend at all. During Lucho's firs season he somehow convinced all players to defend and that disappeared in his second season. From than until now it's same old story. None of Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Dembele, Coutinho were willing to press and defend and that created numerous problems against stronger teams in CL. While it's normal Messi is relieved from defending duties every other player should press and defend or he should be send to the stands or sold.
Also bare in mind that defending is not done only with midfield and defense. If our attackers aren't pressing at all it's basically impossible to successfully defend and neither Suarez nor Messi are willing to press these days and same goes for Demebele. The only one doing that at the moment is Griezmann.
While you can have one player who doesn't defend having two or more is suicidal, especially in CL. During the last 4 years we basically always had 2 or more players in our team who don't defend at all. During Lucho's firs season he somehow convinced all players to defend and that disappeared in his second season. From than until now it's same old story. None of Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Dembele, Coutinho were willing to press and defend and that created numerous problems against stronger teams in CL. While it's normal Messi is relieved from defending duties every other player should press and defend or he should be send to the stands or sold.
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I have no idea why I am answering, but you make it sound like press resistance exists in a vacuum when its clearly a consequence of technical brilliance and therefore will (more likely than not) result in offensive contributions. But keep touching yourself for 2.7 defensive actions per game more with Rakitic and Vidal.
@guy above me. Arthur is not "really" bad in defense, hes grittier than Iniesta for example. Puig is "really" bad defensively. We can stop with this whole football thing if we cant handle someone like Arthur in midfield in Barcelona. Then we can just go for 3 Van Bommels.
@guy above me. Arthur is not "really" bad in defense, hes grittier than Iniesta for example. Puig is "really" bad defensively. We can stop with this whole football thing if we cant handle someone like Arthur in midfield in Barcelona. Then we can just go for 3 Van Bommels.
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I'll reply here.
Well, of course that there are 100s of factors.
But still:
1. even if Frenkie and Arthur were perfect=people here would have defended them, since remember: a psychological urge to have "hopes" for a better future and Frenkie-Arthur are pillars of those dreams currently
2. on the other hand, if Arthur-Frenkie were way below expectations, what do you think that people here would say? Do you think that they would give up from them easily?
I mean, look at it this way: if those two are meh or not as good as expected, then what is there to look forward to in our team?
Our core is old and done.
La Masia kids are very average.
And the only lights of hope are Frenkie and Arthur.
Exactly the same happened with Dembele for 2 years.
Regardless if he played world class of horrible, replies were the same.
UNTIL people (in the same moment) gave up from him and built new pillars in Arthur and Frenkie.
So, Serghei says that it is hard to talk with me since I am not listening.
But on the other hand, try to look at it from my perspective: whatever happens, people will say the same things and they will maybe lower their guard ONLY if Arthur/Frenkie will flop as horribly as Dembele/Coutinho.
And since that won't happen, and they will probably float somewhere in between: awesome, average or weaker than expected, that opens doors for 100s of alibies.
Since we are arguing here, no problem, let's take it to the next level.
My personal eye test says that our team and midfield is in the worst state since Lucho's 3rd season.
I'll use numbers. And they are my estimation, so don't take them as fact or something to troll about, since they are just my estimation.
So, imo:
Midfield from last season, even Busi-Vidal-Raki:
Offense: 5/10
Possession: 6/10
Defense: 7/10
Ability to avoid pressure: 3/10
A new midfield, consisted of Frenkie-Arthur-someone:
Offense: 5/10
Possession: 6/10
Defense: 4/10
Ability to avoid pressure: 8/10
So, basically, we gained a lot ONLY in press resistance.
But our defending in midfield is shakier, possession is more or less the same (Frenkie-Arthur are better in keeping possession than guys from the last season, but since they are bad at defending, they lose a lot of energy and time to get the ball back, plus we are allowing more shots, of course).
In attack, they are way weaker than everything what I have seen since Fabio Rochemback.
Now, someone will reply: but Xavi and Iniesta weren't that great in attack.
I'll use stats from 2009/10 La Liga, since this is the 1st season on Whoscored:
Check this:
Key passes:
3,2 Xavi 2010
1,4 Iniesta 2010
1,0 Arthur
1,0 Frenkie
= total:
Xavi+Iniesta=4,6 key passes per match
Frenkie+Arthur=2,0 key passes per match
Defending:
Tackles:
1,7 Frenkie
1,5 Iniesta 2010
1,2 Xavi 2010
0,9 Arthur
Interceptions:
1,4 Xavi 2010
1,2 Iniesta 2010
0,8 Frenkie
0,4 Arthur
Total, tackles+interceptions per match:
Xavi+Iniesta=2,7 tackles+2,6 interceptions=5,3 in total per match
Frenkie+Arthur=2,6 tackles+1,2 interceptions=3,8 in total per match
So, Xavi+Iniesta weren't CRAZY creators, but still they were creating way more than today.
Also, Xavi and Iniesta were a duo without a true CAM, and we usually always had CAMs in the past.
So, people won't like to hear this, but this is the most sterile midfield duo since around 2003'.
And on top of that, if they were at least awesome in keeping possession and defending, but not.
Frenkie has quite low numbers for a defensive midfielder.
And Arthur's defensive numbers are quite horrible.
And now, you guys say: Frenkie should be a pivot.
But he is quite light in this moment and weaker than our other pivots over years.
Whether he will improve defensively, we will see.
So, if Frenkie is a pivot, then our defense is shaky and then you need someone to cover him.
And who will cover him? A slow Arthur who has very bad defensive stats?
Then, if Frenkie is too light currently for a pivot, the only option is to bench him or play him as a CM.
And if you play him as a CM, what to do with Arthur?
Arthur is even worse as a lone pivot.
So, Arthur has to be a ANOTHER Cm.
But then we come to a new problem=those two are some sort of hybrids between a pivot and a CM, and if you play them both as a CMs, they aren't too creative in attack, what we can see in our matches lately.
Then the only option is to put finished Busi as a pivot, and he is dead on every counter.
So, in this moment, when Frenkie-Arthur have to play, no matter what you do, defense will be shaky and attack will be sterile.
Then people say: we need an attacking guy next to him.
Fine, that could solve our creative problems.
But then, what will be with defense?
Frenkie is light in defense for now, and he ventures into attack all the time.
Arthur is meh to bad in defending.
Now, let's go back to my first part of the post when I posted numbers about our midfield from the last season:
Raki-Vidal-Busi wasn't creative.
But it was somewhat equal to Arthur-Frenkie, since both Vidal and Raki played as CAMs for years.
While the defending in midfield was way better.
These are stats from Rakitic-Vidal from last season (La Liga) compared with the best midfield duo from this season (Frenkie-Arthur):
Key passes:
1,0 Frenkie 2020
1,0 Arthur 2020
0,7 Vidal 2019
0,5 Rakitic 2019
= total:
Frenkie+Arthur 2020=2,0 key passes per match
Rakitic+Vidal 2019=1,2 key passes per match
Defending:
Tackles:
2,4 Vidal 2019
1,7 Frenkie
0,9 Rakitic 2019
0,9 Arthur
Interceptions:
1,5 Rakitic 2019
0,9 Vidal 2019
0,8 Frenkie
0,4 Arthur
Clearances (headers):
0,8 Rakitic 2019
0,6 Vidal 2019
0,3 Frenkie
0,3 Arthur
Defending per match, total:
Rakitic+Vidal 2019=3,3 tackles+2,4 interceptions+1,4 clearances=7,1 successful defensive actions per match
Frenkie+Arthur 2020=2,6 tackles+1,2 interceptions+0,6 clearances=4,4 successful defensive actions per match
So, in this moment, stats say:
= that we traded an improvement of 0,8 key passes per match for a loss of -2,7 defensive actions per match.
Also, even though Frenkie+Arthur brought a slight improvement in key passes:
Vidal scored 24 league goals in the last 5 years.
Rakitic scored 24 league goals in the last 5 years.
Rakitic added 24 assists and Vidal 20.
That means that Rakitic had on average 5 league goals and 5 assists in La Liga.
And Vidal offered 5 goals and 4 assists.
Combined, Rakitic and Vidal offered roughly 10 league goals and 9 assists.
This season, we played 12 matches, which is around 1/3rd of all la liga matches.
They have 3 goals and 4 assists for now, but let's see whether they will reach a total of 10 goals combined until the end of a season (since Arthur had 0 goals in the last season in 2200 minutes, so we have to see whether he will maintain his scoring numbers).
So, as numbers say in this moment:
1. we gained +0,8 key passes per game
2. we have probably lost some goals since Arthur-Frenkie combined aren't scorers in this moment
3. we have lost 2,7 defensive contributions per match without Rakitic-Vidal
On the eye test: we probably play somewhat nicer with these two new CMs and we are surely better in press resistance.
But then, since 90% of teams aren't attacking us at Camp Nou, what is a use of press resistance at all?
On away La Liga games, we survived in the last 2 seasons even without press resistance, and we were murdered in a CL.
So, there is not too much use of our new skill: press resistance EXCEPT on Anfield.
So, when we sum it all:
1. we gained little or almost nothing in key passes
2. we gained nothing in terms of scoring or lost some goals with a new midfield pair
3. we lost quite a lot in terms of defending (2,7 balls per match)
4. we probably lost chemistry and automatism in defending
We gained:
1. Frenkie's kilometers
2. press resistance
3. nice ball movement on home matches and nothing on away matches since we are destroyed in defense and all over a place
Now, when you sum it all, are you guys 100% sure that Frenkie-Arthur aren't guilty at all for our team being all over the place in this season?
Ok, there are bigger problems in a team, but this change for now hasn't improved a team at all.
Yet, people here are writing songs about the best duo in the world.
Now, let's go back to Rakitic and my first post.
He said that he is not sure why he isn't playing anymore.
Then Edmond and guys started to make fun out of him.
I replied: your post sounds as if our midfield plays good this season.
Then you have 10 other guys making fun and writing 100s of random excuses.
And then you have my numbers which should raise some questions.
So, even Raki's question why he is not playing isn't THAT CRAZY considering that a new midfield plays worse than the old midfield.
Now, before replying, take a breath.
Look at Arthur's and Frenkie's attacking and defensive numbers.
And try to think about them for a while without offering crazy alibies: 6 attackers aren't moving (but Raki-Vidal played with the same attackers only 5 Months ago).
Or a midfield is crap because Messi-Suarez aren't defending (but Raki-Vidal played with the same players only 5 Months ago and had way better defensive numbers).
Or: EV is a reason, how can you NOT see that? (And again: EV was here even 5 Months ago, and Raki-Vidal STILL had way better defensive numbers).
So, yeah, I'll be the first one to point some fingers into our 2 sacred cows
Now, insert 100s of random insults, as always
I'll reply tomorrow because I'm tired lol but I feel like you've took my response personally as opposed to just reading it as some healthy debate. I understand why because there is this whole BBZ vs the world on here but I've never had a debate with you on here so there's no need for the sarcastic comments ("Isn't THAT CRAZY", "before replying, take a breath") no need for that stuff, just comes across as rude.
Raketa10
Senior Member
It's different. That team with Xavi and Iniesta had two things this team doesn't have:
1. they pressed like crazy when they lost the ball together with attackers
2. that team had ball possession and control this team can only dream about
Because of that Arthur defending flaws are much more problematic and obvious than those of Xavi or Iniesta.
Lapi
Member
Looking at any numbers in this case just tells nothing. There are moments when the stats tell something hidden, but this is not that case.
1. Users (most of the normal ones) are optimistic about FDJ and Arthur, because they look for future possibilities.
2. Rakitic is the past, he became slower and a bit clumsier than he ever was. No need to disguise your fading love and related Rakitic-disappointment taking on the entire midfield.
3. So far the entire team plays relatively bad and disappointing, no use to quote numbers to illustrate it, because it's not the midfield, it's the entire team.
4. No use of the repeated bashing on Dembele, when you are supposedly talking about something else.
5. Raketa10 is right, the midfield problem will improve when Busquests is on the bench and there's a new defensive MF.
6. In a tactically absolutely fucked up system, there's no use to analyze the things you subjectively try to, because the main poison is the lack of a useful system at present.
7. You again CREATE some numbers (Offense: 5/10, Possession: 6/10, etc.) then you argle-bargle with your new creations. It's something horrible and laughable.
You seemingly don't mind that, as a matter of fact, you count on it, so you could come up with the same things again.
Finally: You actually write these arguments for the 2-3 people who will rush to like it, just because it gives you at least a handful of people who seemingly agree.
NO, they don't. They have their own agendas, and use your time and texts to show counteractions to anything that is pragmatic or factual, see-able and obvious.
These are the weakest, cognitively worst, most biased, least rational users in this forum, and it is a shame on you that you've been actually seeking THEIR benediction, instead of occasionally listening to others, others who seemingly have a much broader view, compared to your own biased and ever repeated notions.
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