Lionel Messi - v7

[Daniele]

No offense, but the current version of Messi is so bad and ruining our team so much that I wouldn't even play him as a starter anymore.

If I were a coach, he would enter in the 60th minute.
If he would enter and do whatever he wants, he would go to stands like Rabiot in PSG's case.

1. Fati-Coutinho-Dembele/Trincao + Griezmann/Braithwaite
2. Dembele-Coutinho-Griezmann/Trincao + Fati/Braithwaite
3. Fati-Coutinho-Griezmann/Dembele/Trincao + Braithwaite

8 matches this season, 0 goals from an open play.

In the last 10 La Liga matches of the last season, he scored goals from an open play ONLY in the last round vs Alaves, in a friendly match when the season was already decided.
In 2 CL matches, he scored 1 goal from an open play vs Napoli.
And now, in 8 matches this season (5 La Liga, 1 CL, 2 NT team) he has 0 goals from an open play.

That is:
1. last 20 matches = he scored 3 goals from an open play
2. last 20 matches = he scored on 2 matches (2x Alaves, 1 Napoli) and hasn't scored on 18 matches

So, LITERALLY, his current scoring ratio from an open play is 1 in 10 matches, lol.

Add to this:
1. his unwillingness to stay here
2. not defending at all
3. killing all formations with dropping deep to a false double pivot position
4. zero off the ball movement
5. playing in the middle all the time
6. demanding every single ball
7. teammates respecting him too much and passing the ball to him all the time even though some other teammates are in way better positions
8. not passing to some teammates in better positions
9. quite dumb decisions with trying to dribble past 4 opponents through the middle all the time, with zero pace in his legs
10. extremely predictable 1-2s through the middle after which we are losing balls and allowing easy counters
11. wanting to play every match even thought he is barely walking

And I see that a lot of guys think that this is psychological.
As if: Messi would run in a new team where he would be happy (Man City).
Lol.

He is done.
He is 33 and a half.
He played 15 years without rest.
He played more matches than former all time greats due to playing in a CL every season and due to playing stupid CDR matches all the time.

There is no way back from here.
From now on, all what is left is going to Youtube and watching old videos when Messi was younger and an awesome player.
The current Messi will only give us headaches and will be worse and worse each new Month due to being even more slower than in this moment.
(Yes, if you think that this is the worst version of Messi, just wait till March, June or next September).

His decline is so strong that imo he should retire this summer or go to MLS and play a season or two there.
If he'll stay in Europe, he'll become a joke and ruin his legacy even more.

Imagine him going to England and letting the opponents and media laugh at his pace and losing balls left and right.

So, the question now is:
1. can we bench him?
2. and for how long we will need to suffer to finally see him on the bench for a match or two?

No offense, but all this criticism is very boring since Messi is not our worst player in the pitch. and what you write has only a random claim to objectivity.
I do not see the point in making strong judgments at the beginning of the season. There is an impatience and an anxiety of judging by some users in this forum which is truly ridiculous. A negative view of who should be the players to cheer on, no balance. A player who has a lower performance becomes to be thrown out, a good player a bad one. Fortunately, this forum is not representative of Barcelona's cheering

 

[BBZ8800]

No offense, but all this criticism is very boring since Messi is not our worst player in the pitch. and what you write has only a random claim to objectivity.
I do not see the point in making strong judgments at the beginning of the season. There is an impatience and an anxiety of judging by some users in this forum which is truly ridiculous. A negative view of who should be the players to cheer on, no balance. A player who has a lower performance becomes to be thrown out, a good player a bad one. Fortunately, this forum is not representative of Barcelona's cheering

You are emotional.
You would play Messi just because of his former self and not because what he is offering currently.

Suarez was an awesome player 5 years ago.
Should he still play for us because of sentiments and past times? No.
Busquets was a part of our best team.
Should he still play because of that? No.
Griezmann was once an awesome player, but he mostly sucks for us.
Should we play him because we paid 120M for him? No.

Why is Messi different?
Should we give him a credit for the next 5 years because he is Messi?

His current displays are not bad.
They are atrocious.

And if our RB Roberto sucks, our team can still play well inspite of a RB.
But if a key man, who gets every single ball, is ruining an action after action, then it is a huge problem.

I usually don't like when people say: "Just play any player instead of XX, it can't get any worse"
But seriously, a current Messi is ruining so much that I would like to play anyone else for a few rounds, because I doubt that we could be more unbalanced than currently.

And not to mention fielding 11 players who can run, move and pass.
Like Alba-Araujo-Pique-Dest, Frenkie-Pjanic/Busi, Ansu-Cou-Griezz-Braithwaite.

I can't see how that team could do worse than a current team.
4 players in the attack would finally combine freely and they would have several options in each action which would make us more fluid, unpredictable and dangerous.

 

[mc_lovin]

Calling his displays atrocious is a bit much, but he definitely doesnt justify his liberties on the pitch anymore (since last season).

 

[Rory]

Sure let's play Coutinho oh wait he's injured from playing too much, next in line? Dembele, let's play him oh wait injury incoming... It's all well and good to say "x should play" but the reality of it is x isn't good enough, x is injured. Basically Messi and the veterans still start because we've brought in precisely zero players worth starting instead of them IN IMPORTANT GAMES

 

[magicomessi]

No offense, but the current version of Messi is so bad and ruining our team so much that I wouldn't even play him as a starter anymore.

If I were a coach, he would enter in the 60th minute.
If he would enter and do whatever he wants, he would go to stands like Rabiot in PSG's case.

1. Fati-Coutinho-Dembele/Trincao + Griezmann/Braithwaite
2. Dembele-Coutinho-Griezmann/Trincao + Fati/Braithwaite
3. Fati-Coutinho-Griezmann/Dembele/Trincao + Braithwaite

8 matches this season, 0 goals from an open play.

In the last 10 La Liga matches of the last season, he scored goals from an open play ONLY in the last round vs Alaves, in a friendly match when the season was already decided.
In 2 CL matches, he scored 1 goal from an open play vs Napoli.
And now, in 8 matches this season (5 La Liga, 1 CL, 2 NT team) he has 0 goals from an open play.

That is:
1. last 20 matches = he scored 3 goals from an open play
2. last 20 matches = he scored on 2 matches (2x Alaves, 1 Napoli) and hasn't scored on 18 matches

So, LITERALLY, his current scoring ratio from an open play is 1 in 10 matches, lol.

Add to this:
1. his unwillingness to stay here
2. not defending at all
3. killing all formations with dropping deep to a false double pivot position
4. zero off the ball movement
5. playing in the middle all the time
6. demanding every single ball
7. teammates respecting him too much and passing the ball to him all the time even though some other teammates are in way better positions
8. not passing to some teammates in better positions
9. quite dumb decisions with trying to dribble past 4 opponents through the middle all the time, with zero pace in his legs
10. extremely predictable 1-2s through the middle after which we are losing balls and allowing easy counters
11. wanting to play every match even thought he is barely walking

And I see that a lot of guys think that this is psychological.
As if: Messi would run in a new team where he would be happy (Man City).
Lol.

He is done.
He is 33 and a half.
He played 15 years without rest.
He played more matches than former all time greats due to playing in a CL every season and due to playing stupid CDR matches all the time.

There is no way back from here.
From now on, all what is left is going to Youtube and watching old videos when Messi was younger and an awesome player.
The current Messi will only give us headaches and will be worse and worse each new Month due to being even more slower than in this moment.
(Yes, if you think that this is the worst version of Messi, just wait till March, June or next September).

His decline is so strong that imo he should retire this summer or go to MLS and play a season or two there.
If he'll stay in Europe, he'll become a joke and ruin his legacy even more.

Imagine him going to England and letting the opponents and media laugh at his pace and losing balls left and right.

So, the question now is:
1. can we bench him?
2. and for how long we will need to suffer to finally see him on the bench for a match or two?

Nice post troll 😂😂

 

[Daniele]

You are emotional.
You would play Messi just because of his former self and not because what he is offering currently.

Suarez was an awesome player 5 years ago.
Should he still play for us because of sentiments and past times? No.
Busquets was a part of our best team.
Should he still play because of that? No.
Griezmann was once an awesome player, but he mostly sucks for us.
Should we play him because we paid 120M for him? No.

Why is Messi different?
Should we give him a credit for the next 5 years because he is Messi?

His current displays are not bad.
They are atrocious.

And if our RB Roberto sucks, our team can still play well inspite of a RB.
But if a key man, who gets every single ball, is ruining an action after action, then it is a huge problem.

I usually don't like when people say: "Just play any player instead of XX, it can't get any worse"
But seriously, a current Messi is ruining so much that I would like to play anyone else for a few rounds, because I doubt that we could be more unbalanced than currently.

And not to mention fielding 11 players who can run, move and pass.
Like Alba-Araujo-Pique-Dest, Frenkie-Pjanic/Busi, Ansu-Cou-Griezz-Braithwaite.

I can't see how that team could do worse than a current team.
4 players in the attack would finally combine freely and they would have several options in each action which would make us more fluid, unpredictable and dangerous.

My my thesis instead is that YOU (and all those shoveling shit on Messi) ARE EMOTIONAL and not me.
and this bias of yours invalidates all your tactical considerations.
What is the prejudice? give 2 less votes to Messi for each perfromance just because he is Messi. Cause you still compare him with Prime-Messi.
HIs performance against Real is 5.5, no worse than many others. His performances this year are above sufficiency. (less fast but still able to give magic that changes a game)
Could be made to rest more, I agree; but your anti-Messi campaign is all cognitive bias. Also you have to wait before labeling a player as finished, in football it is normal to have periods of decline.
Just calm down guys, and we talk at the END OF THE SEASON

 

[ItachiXXX]

He needs Aguero or Di Maria to get it going again.

With Higuain

 

[BBZ8800]

Sure let's play Coutinho oh wait he's injured from playing too much, next in line? Dembele, let's play him oh wait injury incoming... It's all well and good to say "x should play" but the reality of it is x isn't good enough, x is injured. Basically Messi and the veterans still start because we've brought in precisely zero players worth starting instead of them IN IMPORTANT GAMES

Even with injured Coutinho, I would play:
Fati-Griezz-Trincao/Dembele + Braithwaite.

Griezz can be a 10. Fati is good, Trincao/Dembele will offer some danger.
Braitwaite will offer presence in the box.

Plus, we will defend with 11 players.

I can't see how that can be worse than naive Messi's 1-2s and dribbles through 4 players all the time.
Every single opponent knows what he will do.

 

[Daniele]

Even with injured Coutinho, I would play:
Fati-Griezz-Trincao/Dembele + Braithwaite.

Griezz can be a 10. Fati is good, Trincao/Dembele will offer some danger.
Braitwaite will offer presence in the box.

Plus, we will defend with 11 players.

I can't see how that can be worse than naive Messi's 1-2s and dribbles through 4 players all the time.
Every single opponent knows what he will do.

ok mate, this is your thoughts and 4/5 other madmen in this forum. the rest of the football world would twist this laughable point of view. Fact. You see what I mean?

 

[Rory]

Even with injured Coutinho, I would play:
Fati-Griezz-Trincao/Dembele + Braithwaite.

Griezz can be a 10. Fati is good, Trincao/Dembele will offer some danger.
Braitwaite will offer presence in the box.

Plus, we will defend with 11 players.

I can't see how that can be worse than naive Messi's 1-2s and dribbles through 4 players all the time.
Every single opponent knows what he will do.

It's worth a shot for sure, I wouldn't expect better results from that though.

 

[BBZ8800]

My my thesis instead is that YOU (and all those shoveling shit on Messi) ARE EMOTIONAL and not me.
and this bias of yours invalidates all your tactical considerations.
What is the prejudice? give 2 less votes to Messi for each perfromance just because he is Messi. Cause you still compare him with Prime-Messi.
HIs performance against Real is 5.5, no worse than many others. His performances this year are above sufficiency. (less fast but still able to give magic that changes a game)
Could be made to rest more, I agree; but your anti-Messi campaign is all cognitive bias. Also you have to wait before labeling a player as finished, in football it is normal to have periods of decline.
Just calm down guys, and we talk at the END OF THE SEASON

I see, you think that I rate current Messi low because of comparisons with a legendary Messi.
Ok, a fair point.

But still, even prime Messi was a tactical mess.
But he was offering magic so we were surviving without his defensive input.
But for the last 6-7 years, every single team is attacking us through the right side, because Messi isn't defending.
This is why we needed to buy babysitter Rakitic to cover for him and help to a RB.

His magic is not sufficient for years in a CL.
But at least it was working against Mickey Mouse teams in La Liga.
But lately, Messi's magic is not working even in La Liga against teams who are at the lowest level of quality in the last 10-12 years.
He is not an advantage against Getafe and Levante anymore.

What is he bringing to a team in this moment except having the same physical looks as a guy who was once the best player in the world.

** Also, another question:
Imagine if this was not Messi.
Imagine if Griezz, Suarez or Coutinho would perform exactly the same as Messi is performing today.
Would you keep them on the field or would you say: sub this clown from the field?

Some will say: but but but he is still creating chances.
Lol.

He has the ball all the time.
If you give 20 chances to create something, Coutinho, Griezz or even Pedri and Puig would create 2-3 chances per match if they would have the ball and free reigns all the time, like Messi.

Seriously, play one match where Coutinho or Griezmann will get EVERY SINGLE BALL around the box and give them 20-30 actions to do whatever they want.
Of course they will create something.

Messi is doing exactly the same.

Even though, I think that other players would create even more because they have legs and Messi is losing balls left and right with his crazy stubborness to play everything through the middle all the time.

So, what is currently Messi offering what other players wouldn't be able to do?

 

[Daniele]

I see, you think that I rate current Messi low because of comparisons with a legendary Messi.
Ok, a fair point.

But still, even prime Messi was a tactical mess.
But he was offering magic so we were surviving without his defensive input.
But for the last 6-7 years, every single team is attacking us through the right side, because Messi isn't defending.
This is why we needed to buy babysitter Rakitic to cover for him and help to a RB.

His magic is not sufficient for years in a CL.
But at least it was working against Mickey Mouse teams in La Liga.
But lately, Messi's magic is not working even in La Liga against teams who are at the lowest level of quality in the last 10-12 years.
He is not an advantage against Getafe and Levante anymore.

What is he bringing to a team in this moment except having the same physical looks as a guy who was once the best player in the world.

** Also, another question:
Imagine if this was not Messi.
Imagine if Griezz, Suarez or Coutinho would perform exactly the same as Messi is performing today.
Would you keep them on the field or would you say: sub this clown from the field?

Some will say: but but but he is still creating chances.
Lol.

He has the ball all the time.
If you give 20 chances to create something, Coutinho, Griezz or even Pedri and Puig would create 2-3 chances per match if they would have the ball and free reigns all the time, like Messi.

Seriously, play one match where Coutinho or Griezmann will get EVERY SINGLE BALL around the box and give them 20-30 actions to do whatever they want.
Of course they will create something.

Messi is doing exactly the same.

Even though, I think that other players would create even more because they have legs and Messi is losing balls left and right with his crazy stubborness to play everything through the middle all the time.

So, what is currently Messi offering what other players wouldn't be able to do?

I already answered you, and showed you that you're biased since nobody (excepy the pundits in this forum LOL) would support your point.
To say that prime Messi was a tactical nonsense it's a NONSENSE
To say that Barca loses his match cause Messi does not defend is a NONSENSE (ok ok the current football where everyone defend and attack it's another Bias since every team has a couple of player who defend less than others)
To say that Messi is uderperforming for his mighty stantards is ok, but still he actually performs better than cou Griz and co.
we can carry on forever with this debate in which your position is the one of the barca forum "pundits", mine the topic of everyone else who knows the game (and Im not sayng Messi is not decling, but that he is stull worth palyng and worth watching)

 

[BBZ8800]

ok mate, this is your thoughts and 4/5 other madmen in this forum. the rest of the football world would twist this laughable point of view. Fact. You see what I mean?

The rest of the football world then haven't watched Messi in 2020, it seems.

Remember how fast has Ronaldinho declined.
Or Shevchenko when he moved from Milan.
Ronaldinho was 28 when he declined fast.
Sheva was 30.
In his last 3 years at Milan he scored 24 goals (32 matches), 17 (29), 19 (28) goals.
At Chelsea he scored 4 league goals in 30 matches.
And 5 in the next season.
And then he moved to Ukranian league.

So, in 2 years he declined from an awesome player who was scoring 19 goals in 29 league matches to a guy who played for Dynamo Kiev in Ukraine.
He was 32 when he moved to Ukraine.

Now, Messi is already 33 and a half.
Check this, age 33/34:
Ronaldinho = Atletico Mineiro (Brasil) and Queretaro (Mexico, lol)
Rivaldo = Olympiacos (Greece)
Henry = New York (USA)
Kluivert = retired at the age of 32 after bad spells at Newcastle, Valencia, Psv and Lille
Villa = New York City Fc (USA)
Guily = Psg (France)
Overmars = retired age 31
Etoo = Everton (England)
Alexis Sanchez, aged 32 = already almost done at the top level

The only former player who played well in the late age was Henrik Larsson who played for Barca even aged 35.

So, except Larsson, all of our former strikers were finished in current Messi's age.
And now, our fans, or Messi's fans somehow think that laws of nature and physics don't apply for Messi and that he will somehow dribble, score and amaze at the age of 33 or 34.
Lol.

The sad truth is: whatever you see now, Messi will only get way worse in upcoming Months.
He will play a magical match (or a half) once in 10 matches and that's it.

And then you guys are offended because some of us are applying the basics of nature on Messi's case.
He has actually stayed on a top level for surprisingly long.
Even this is more than expected.

 

[Daniele]

The rest of the football world then haven't watched Messi in 2020, it seems.

Remember how fast has Ronaldinho declined.
Or Shevchenko when he moved from Milan.
Ronaldinho was 28 when he declined fast.
Sheva was 30.
In his last 3 years at Milan he scored 24 goals (32 matches), 17 (29), 19 (28) goals.
At Chelsea he scored 4 league goals in 30 matches.
And 5 in the next season.
And then he moved to Ukranian league.

So, in 2 years he declined from an awesome player who was scoring 19 goals in 29 league matches to a guy who played for Dynamo Kiev in Ukraine.
He was 32 when he moved to Ukraine.

Now, Messi is already 33 and a half.
Check this, age 33/34:
Ronaldinho = Atletico Mineiro (Brasil) and Queretaro (Mexico, lol)
Rivaldo = Olympiacos (Greece)
Henry = New York (USA)
Kluivert = retired at the age of 32 after bad spells at Newcastle, Valencia, Psv and Lille
Villa = New York City Fc (USA)
Guily = Psg (France)
Overmars = retired age 31
Etoo = Everton (England)
Alexis Sanchez, aged 32 = already almost done at the top level

The only former player who played well in the late age was Henrik Larsson who played for Barca even aged 35.

So, except Larsson, all of our former strikers were finished in current Messi's age.
And now, our fans, or Messi's fans somehow think that laws of nature and physics don't apply for Messi and that he will somehow dribble, score and amaze at the age of 33 or 34.
Lol.

The sad truth is: whatever you see now, Messi will only get way worse in upcoming Months.
He will play a magical match (or a half) once in 10 matches and that's it.

And then you guys are offended because some of us are applying the basics of nature on Messi's case.
He has actually stayed on a top level for surprisingly long.
Even this is more than expected.

what is the point of not waiting for the end of the season to came to conclusions?? Messi has not been great so far (with some flashes of grandeur) like the ENTIRE barcelona team has been. enough of this chatter and we do serious analyzes when we can do them

 

[CatalinR10]

what is the point of not waiting for the end of the season to came to conclusions??

don't worry he always does this with lots of players we have .


He makes his oppinions based in the present moment.


x player had bad game , bbz comes here and says how he is a bad fit , yada yada yada


That's why as soon as x player has a good game / week / month / etc , bbz goes missing from x player's thread even for several weeks like it happened in the past


as soon as x player has a bad game again , bbz appears once more with his ideas that x player is shit


- out of all his predictions , 20% are right ( mostly because he makes easy ones )

- if one or two trolls come here and say for example ,, puig has the same height as Xavi " and just that, not saying he plays the same , or has same potential etc and if Puig won't make it ,a few years later he'll say that he was right all along about Puig and he was alone vs an entire forum who said he would be the same as Xavi ( based on that height stuff I was talking about )

- he tends to exagerate everything , for example when Corona was spreading he was the most active user in the Corona thread by far, saying that we won't get to see Messi playing again or that we won't get to see football for a few years or stuff like that , only for everything football related to resume in like 3 months lol. He does this with a lot of players.


I don't take him that serious when it comes to football related topics.


He's a really good ,, relationship thread " poster tho.