Lionel Messi - v7

[snowy]

More than half of those stats are volume related. If I have the ball much more than others, I make more passes, more dribbles, I get fouled more, I attempt more through balls. It's logical, and it doesn't mean it's good.

His stats get inflated because he has a disproportional role compared with any other player. He gets passed to constantly.

I want the stats for how many touches and passes Son has in a match compared with Messi. I'd be surprised if Son gets access to 20% the actions Messi gets per game. And yet, he scores more, assists more, and creates more chances.

Ask and thy shall receive

Gotta say Vardy and Son been playing amazing!

and yup, Leo so far been sporting nightmarish evil dead rip your heart out cliff-diving GOAT level drop in quality at vertical velocity stats

but you can't say that he sucks in 1v1 and that he can only perform easy dribbles in midfield. Even yesterday, at the start of the 2nd, he did a quick slalom between 2 defenders before drifting on the left and attempting the shot at goal. Yeah he didn't score so it's not like I'm saying he was dope.

Just disagree with folks who're saying he lost his pace and can't dribble anymore. Last year, he was top dribbler along with Traore, Zaha, neyneycherie and that other St-Maximilien dude

 

[snowy]

Here's the same batch for last season if interested

Leo was better in 1v1 than this year and his goal conversion rate was much much better so let's see if he can put on the blue suede crampons and climb himself out of that crevasse

 

[henias]

More than half of those stats are volume related. If I have the ball much more than others, I make more passes, more dribbles, I get fouled more, I attempt more through balls. It's logical, and it doesn't mean it's good.

His stats get inflated because he has a disproportional role compared with any other player. He gets passed to constantly.

I want the stats for how many touches and passes Son has in a match compared with Messi. I'd be surprised if Son gets access to 20% the actions Messi gets per game. And yet, he scores more, assists more, and creates more chances.

It's all about impact / volume of balls played. Messi's impact is very low compared with the volume of passes and dribbles he attempts. It can only mean that his dribbles are done in lower-danger areas. Not all dribbles are the same. The higher quality ones are in the box, where the spaces are tighter and every dribble can procure a goal scoring chance.

If you drop 35 meters, dribble two random dudes (usually not defenders, because that deep area is covered by more attacking players), than attempt a fancy pass that goes straight to the opponent, that's not creating much. The stats sites probably register those useless dribbles and count them as success.

You need more data, and you need it structured differently. For example, it would be useful to find out what percentage of Messi dribbles are close to goal (let's say in the 16m box), compared with Son's. I bet Son's dribbles are way closer to goal than Messi's. And yet he has almost the same take-on success rate. That is how you can explain why Son scores more and creates more. Because in his case, almost all of his dribbles are done in key areas, and doing those dribbles allow Son to either score or assist.

You need a way way more in depth analysis to hope to get somewhat of a clearer picture using numbers and stats. These are just child's play. Some numbers put there by some IT guys who click some buttons.

Neymar literally dribbles more than Messi on a regular basis. In one season he hit 200 attempted dribbles, yet only a 50% success rate, more than any player across Europe. Messi is not even close.

A player dribbled past is a player dribbled past. Doesnt matter if it's low danger area. It creates danger.

Barcelona plays that constant possession style which obviously allows opponent to defend tighter with lesser space. Even teams like Manchester City struggle to break down buses at times, and no player will be able to constantly dribble in the box, provided they had already gotten past the first line of barrier.

Add that with Barcelona playing with less wingers that makes everything narrower, shoehorning of Griezmann, and sometimes even playing Coutinho or Pedri as a winger.

I agree his finishing could be a slight bit better. Probably just needs a proper rest to get his head straight in the game. Like a fresh restart. He honestly has been playing every game for his age which isnt healthy.

 

[Laplacian]

Impossible.

Zlatan is slow but he scores a lot of goals due to his height, strength and positioning in the box (headers).
Cr7 also scores mostly headers and tap ins.

Messi is short and slow.
He always relied on finishing with feet and dribbles.
His positioning, off the ball movement and presence in the box is poor.

Younger Messi was a GOAT of goals with feet.
And bad in other aspects.
Cr7 and Zlatan were not as good as Messi with feet but they were allrounders.

And now, both Zlatan and Cr7 lost pace but they still have some other weapons.
While with Messi, he always had only one weapon. And now all of his weapons are gone: pace, acceleration, dribbles, lethal finishing.

The question: how can Messi turn into Zlatan and Cr7 when he doesn't possess those skills?

To some extent, Messi is like Pep.
On prime, it was an unstoppable machine.
But when that machine stops working, you get a sterile one-dimensional the most predictable product in the world who can't play in any other way.

A lot of his goals in the 2011-2013 were in the box, where he relied quite a lot on his positioning. To say his goals are because of his feet and dribbling skills is dead wrong, the guy clearly has the brain of a striker as well. Or had, because that was 7 years ago.

 

[JohnN]

I don't feel we have such a good, fast and smart right winger, that is also great at defending. Why isn't leo playing in his natural position on the right. He is so crowded in the middle and does not know how to play there.
We use dembele and trincao on the right, when we have the best rw in the world in out team, even though he got old.

 

[KingLeo10]

I don't feel we have such a good, fast and smart right winger, that is also great at defending. Why isn't leo playing in his natural position on the right. He is so crowded in the middle and does not know how to play there.
We use dembele and trincao on the right, when we have the best rw in the world in out team, even though he got old.

That's Salah, not Messi.

The last time Messi played as a true winger was 14-15.

 

[JohnN]

That's Salah, not Messi.

The last time Messi played as a true winger was 14-15.

Yes of course not on that level still. But the position he plays now is weird. Crowded in the middle with little hope for 1-2s. He still seems more dangerous when drifting right.
Dembele does not have the passing abilities and the composure to be good on the right. He will have 1 or two running the flank and cut it back each game because of his pace, bit most of the times he is infuriating.
Trincao is much better at for our syle of play, as is Messi, but he is slower than Messi, worse in 1v1, worse at passing and a worse finisher. So all in all, Messi stillis our best rw.

 

[Mitchell1978]

I said it before. I don't care what Messi fanboys have to say about me. To me your opinion is worth nothing, no offense. You're just too much of a Messi fan to see beyond that. I am speaking strictly in relation to Messi situation, I have no idea how you are like in other issues.

Fanboys make the worst debaters. They are caught in their little bubble and take any attack on their idol as a personal affront.

Says the guy with the massive anti-Messi agenda since god knows when. lol at you lecturing anyone on objectivity.
And you post in this thread i will comment on it whenever i feel like it.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

All the dribbles mentioned, he did pull them off. He was below par in the shooting department. Point is, if you're actively looking for parts where players fuck up, it's easy to find them for any player.

I perso like risky players so I have a higher tolerance for lost balls than most fans of the game

btw, just checked the Voodoo part, his conversion rate is sub 5%

I look rather the matches then this states

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

A lot of his goals in the 2011-2013 were in the box, where he relied quite a lot on his positioning. To say his goals are because of his feet and dribbling skills is dead wrong, the guy clearly has the brain of a striker as well. Or had, because that was 7 years ago.

He needs to become 12/13 Messi again when he had deadly good off-ball movement to bring hi in perfect position.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Gossip? Seriously?
Setien said today in his interview that Messi does not want to be managed.

lol, Another one who only reads what he wants to reads.

 

[Mitchell1978]

I look rather the matches then this states

stats are the best indicator of performance

 

[feggydinho]

Impossible.

Zlatan is slow but he scores a lot of goals due to his height, strength and positioning in the box (headers).
Cr7 also scores mostly headers and tap ins.

Messi is short and slow.
He always relied on finishing with feet and dribbles.
His positioning, off the ball movement and presence in the box is poor.

Younger Messi was a GOAT of goals with feet.
And bad in other aspects.
Cr7 and Zlatan were not as good as Messi with feet but they were allrounders.

And now, both Zlatan and Cr7 lost pace but they still have some other weapons.
While with Messi, he always had only one weapon. And now all of his weapons are gone: pace, acceleration, dribbles, lethal finishing.

The question: how can Messi turn into Zlatan and Cr7 when he doesn't possess those skills?

To some extent, Messi is like Pep.
On prime, it was an unstoppable machine.
But when that machine stops working, you get a sterile one-dimensional the most predictable product in the world who can't play in any other way.

Messi is still good with passes and through balls, so he should focus on that and learn how to play and stay in a position (not demanding for the ball everywhere and putting other players off). He should also save his energy for attempting dribbles and reuse it in pressing since he gets dispossessed quite easily now.

 

[behindbrowneyes]

Are there any comparings about run km/game with last season? His finishing might be off because he has to run way more and therefore lacks freshness in the box. He'll have to adapt to this.

 

[Morten]

He needs to become 12/13 Messi again when he had deadly good off-ball movement to bring hi in perfect position.

Messi's days as a striker are over, its not going to work anymore.