Lionel Messi - v7

[devo901]

- Play against much harder opponents week in week out compared to what Messi has to do. At the time, the league was so competitive because the talents and top notch players were almost evenly distributed among the different teams (just think to an all-time great like Zico playing for Udinese, e.g.).
Nowadays, 6-7 multi-billions worthy teams (Barcelona, Real Madrid, City, Liverpool, PSG, Juve etc.) have many of the best players in the world, making it easier for world class players to play together and score goals for fun against lesser teams.

- Was more skillful overall technical than Messi. Maradona had more weapons and more flair than Messi in his personal inventory. Messi is of course a technically sublime player, with enormous efficiency in his plays, but Maradona was more skillful and had a wider set of abilities to counter for a harder (on average) opposition.
- Had much more leadership and charisma compared to Messi.

- Mediocre defenders facing him 99% of the games

--.

I agree with modern rules, referees, perfect pitches, all seems to be tailored for Messi. However, Maradona was way more athletic so the heavy ball, & dresses; he was rdy for this. He was more like a dwarf with enormous legs.

About the high level of defenders, I have doubts that back then, they were that much better that today. The game play was more sliding and destroying, but why should overall defender-talent in this decade be higher? Statistically hard to believe.

Today, systematical training from youth clubs, will give you players later, that are tactical, technical and stamina-wise, at least "OK" or better. Back then in the 80ties - defenders were by far less balanced.

The game play was slower and more static - that makes breaks and counter attacks even more dangerous. (Claudio carniggia was his buddy MAradona feeded and he was super fast)

Not to forget the "medical" options that top players/teams had. We all remember the interrogations of Roberto Baggio at court and what he confessed ... they swallowed anti-depressive medication for children, as it boosts rehabilitation rate. I am pretty sure 80ties were the start of the era of doping in football/sorry "medical optimized players". Teams with less money did not have these options. Which widens the gap.

Saying that Maradona has way more options, skill wise, needs to be questioned, as today tactical game plans do not allow that much magic trickery rabonas and showboating ...

I remember that when Maradona came to Naples journalists told him to show his talent. He took the ball and hit the cross bar 11 (or even 15 times cant remember) in a row from the box edge performing a freekick. So, he was amazing.

Players were smoking like crazy - today this is the exception - back then it was way more common, not to mentioned nutrition and diet, also widening the gap between top players and the rest.

He was the best back then - Messi today... it is very hard to compare...
Messi has shown way more consistency physically over the years, Maradona was able to show a bit more artistic flamboyant game style... something you see these days only from crazy Zlatan how does not give a f...k ... but everyone says what Messi does in training is out of this world.

 

[RevoTeller]

I agree with modern rules, referees, perfect pitches, all seems to be tailored for Messi. However, Maradona was way more athletic so the heavy ball, & dresses; he was rdy for this. He was more like a dwarf with enormous legs.

About the high level of defenders, I have doubts that back then, they were that much better that today. The game play was more sliding and destroying, but why should overall defender-talent in this decade be higher? Statistically hard to believe.

Today, systematical training from youth clubs, will give you players later, that are tactical, technical and stamina-wise, at least "OK" or better. Back then in the 80ties - defenders were by far less balanced.

The game play was slower and more static - that makes breaks and counter attacks even more dangerous. (Claudio carniggia was his buddy MAradona feeded and he was super fast)

Not to forget the "medical" options that top players/teams had. We all remember the interrogations of Roberto Baggio at court and what he confessed ... they swallowed anti-depressive medication for children, as it boosts rehabilitation rate. I am pretty sure 80ties were the start of the era of doping in football/sorry "medical optimized players". Teams with less money did not have these options. Which widens the gap.

Saying that Maradona has way more options, skill wise, needs to be questioned, as today tactical game plans do not allow that much magic trickery and showboating ...

I remember that when Maradona came to Naples journalists told him to show his talent. He took the ball and hit the cross bar 11 (or even 15 times cant remember) in a row from the box edge performing a freekick. So, he was amazing.

Players were smoking like crazy - today this is the exception - back then it was way more common, not to mentioned nutrition and diet, also widening the gap between top players and the rest.

He was the best back then - Messi today... it is very hard to compare...

Yes, your points are valid as well.
There are pros and cons for each era, that's why, as I said, I don't think that the arguing about the best ever can be an objective topic.
It really comes down to personal opinions.
For sure both of them are among the few very best of this sport.

 

[vegitot]

I will answer to you because you are one of the few on here who responded with a worthy post.
Maradona played with slower tempos compared to what Messi is currently used to, that's true.
However, Maradona played in arguably the hardest league ever (80's Serie A) for an offensive player.
Compared to Messi, he had to:

- Play on much worse pitches, with considerably heavier balls, shoes and shirts
- Play with a worse team than FC Barcelona has been, on average, during the last 10 years
- Play against much harder opponents week in week out compared to what Messi has to do. At the time, the league was so competitive because the talents and top notch players were almost evenly distributed among the different teams (just think to an all-time great like Zico playing for Udinese, e.g.).
Nowadays, 6-7 multi-billions worthy teams (Barcelona, Real Madrid, City, Liverpool, PSG, Juve etc.) have many of the best players in the world, making it easier for world class players to play together and score goals for fun against lesser teams.
- Play under much more stringent rules for the attackers (compared to today standards) and much more favorable rules for the defenders (compared to today standards).
Not to mention that the quality of the defenders back then was orders of magnitude greater than today. Lenglet is now a starter for a team of FC Barcelona caliber. In Maradona's era, Lenglet would have been lucky to even carry the bags to the football pitch for the true great defenders of the time.
- Play without a well-estabilished team system behind him. Maradona WAS the team system most of the times, while Messi often demonstrated in his career to be a wonderful system player.

Then, if we have to look at pure football abilities, to me Maradona

- Was more skillful overall technical than Messi. Maradona had more weapons and more flair than Messi in his personal inventory. Messi is of course a technically sublime player, with enormous efficiency in his plays, but Maradona was more skillful and had a wider set of abilities to counter for a harder (on average) opposition.
- Had much more leadership and charisma compared to Messi.

Now, people always bring up goals when they are short on argument when talking about football players.
Well, Maradona, given the considerably harder conditions he had to face as I explained before, playing as a midfielder or true "trequartista" for most of his career, still managed to have an equal or even better goal scoring ratio than the likes of Thierry Henry or Samuel Eto'o, who are two among the very best forwards of the last 30 years.
Now imagine a healty and "in his prime" Maradona playing in a today squad full of superstars surrounding him and against overall mediocre teams most of the times, with:

- Perfect pitches and modern balls
- Mediocre defenders facing him 99% of the games
- Modern rules which are extremely more favorable to offensive players, with the aim to promoting goals and the overall show

Imagine him, for example, playing in today Liverpool, where someone like Salah (with all due respect, a great player but no more than average if compared to a prime Maradona) scores around 30-40 goals per year.
It could be such an overpowered situation to see that it would almost be embarassing for the opponents facing him.

But then again, he would not be "Maradona" as football experts consider him to be today, because what it sets him apart from most of the competitors is to have done what he has done under such hard and difficult overall conditions.

As I told you in my previous post, I consider Messi to be in a top 6 players ever list and by far the best player gracing a football pitch today, but if we talk about Maradona at his prime I believe that he was an even greater force to behold.


PS: the same basically goes for pre-injury Ronaldo de Lima, who was basically something unseen before and after on a football pitch.

Seriea 80s wasnt harder than Messi's Liga.
How many European cup that Seriea 80s team win at this time?
Saying football nowaday is easier is absurb.

 

[JohnN]

Haven't seen Maradona play for even a season so not much to say about this. From footage reels his ball control, acceleration and speed are not even in the same league as Messi's..

 

[Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor]

This ain't Fifa where you can just change formations. Football got a LOT more details other than put X and Y here and there. Just like Serghei said.

Even tennis got like 100 ways of tactical plan in a match. Now imagine a sport with 22 players involved.

But of course someone will never understand this logic.

I support Serghei 100%. No matter what formations we used, if our fundamental tactic under EV is the same, everything will be the same.

Could not disagree more. Our best away performance of the season away from home was with a change of formation to 3 5 2 against the serie A leaders with a B team. Ernie was the manager that day also.

Chelsea changed their formation today vs Spurs to 3 at the back and produced their best performance of the season for a guy who has been a manager for all of 18 months.

How do you explain the above? Football is a far far simpler game than people like to make out. Tactics, systems should be covered during pre season but you can easily train for a week with a different formation/ tactics to suit a particular opponent.

 

[Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor]

I didn't say that there are 4 players better than Messi or Maradona.
At this level, I don't think that it is even possible to objectively say who is the best ever. Too many variables playing the game, it comes down to personal preference.

Anyway, in temporal order, for me:

Di Stefano
Pelé
Cruijff
Maradona
(The true) Ronaldo de Lima
Messi

Then, very close to them I have a crop of all time greats such as R.Baggio, Zico, Platini, Romario, Garrincha, Puskas, etc.

My own personal top 6 in order are

Messi, Maradona,R9,Pele,Di Stefano, Zico (the most underated of all when discussing GOAT lists).

You make some good points in Maradona's favour ie no protection from referees , bad pitches, ball etc. But there are points in favour of Leo having to face superior tactics and fitter stronger players. Imho it evens itself out.


I would imagine Diego in this era to be extraordinary and he would have definitely had more goals. I see him inferior to Messi because he just wasn't as good in terms of passing, dribbling and shooting.

I can understand anyone calling Diego the GOAT. I just find it hard to see how anyobe could contemplate putting either Diego or Leo as low as 6th, but each to their own.

 

[Havesaks]

Totally agree on the 3-5-2, that should be the formation to go at least vs top teams. We should also seriously consider a "long-term" change of formation as long Messi is active here.

 

[George_Costanza]

I have seen many of Maradona's games. I would say he is physically stronger than Messi.

 

[BusiTheKing]

Scholes talked about how he couldn't believe how strong Messi was. Remember Milner trying to get on his body and Messi leaving him on his arse in that pre-season friendly a few years ago?

 

[BusiTheKing]

there are countless of instances but I loved this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APiP_ChcNrU&t=2m51s

 

[devo901]

I have seen many of Maradona's games. I would say he is physically stronger than Messi.

I agree .... on photos - Maradonna was a bit heavier just the way he was built ... which also might play into his acceleration which was lower compared to messis prime... but in 30 years training methods have advanced so comparing is pretty useless.

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images3/360/0815/14/diego-maradona-signed-autographed_360_495afcd0753426be298a07bdafa544ba.jpg


http://greatfootballers.weebly.com/uploads/2/6/1/0/26101232/1410264509.jpg

messi

https://fearofbliss.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/x610-1.jpg

http://img.scooper.news/v2-EagleNews/Eagle-NewsImage/DetailImage/RealNews/20180910/d8872bdd481deb07f6899ae71420a1be.jpg

 

[BBZ8800]

How exactly?
Messi is ridiculously strong for his size, rarely ever bullied off the ball, he is also 4/5 cm taller and has been much fitter throughout his career then Maradona.

From 1870 to 1970, an average height grew for 11 cm.
1,1 cm per decade.

In the last few decades it grew even faster.
So:
Crujff with 180 in 70s would have been 186cm today.
Pele with 173 in 60s would have been 180-181cm today.
Rivaldo with 186 in late 90s would have been 189cm today.
Van Basten, Rijkaard and Gullit with 188, 190 and 191 from late 80s and 90s would have been 192, 194 and 195cm today.

Maradona with 165cm in 1986 would have been around 169-170 cm today.
So, Maradona wasn't any shorter than average man in 1986 than Messi is today.
Relatively, they were of the same height.

 

[JohnN]

From 1870 to 1970, an average height grew for 11 cm.
1,1 cm per decade.

In the last few decades it grew even faster.
So:
Crujff with 180 in 70s would have been 186cm today.
Pele with 173 in 60s would have been 180-181cm today.
Rivaldo with 186 in late 90s would have been 189cm today.
Van Basten, Rijkaard and Gullit with 188, 190 and 191 from late 80s and 90s would have been 192, 194 and 195cm today.

Maradona with 165cm in 1986 would have been around 169-170 cm today.
So, Maradona wasn't any shorter than average man in 1986 than Messi is today.
Relatively, they were of the same height.

The only relevant thing I can find about this, is a study that claims average height has grown by 10cm in the last 150 years. It doesn't even speak about even distribution of that growth. Which means about 0.67cm per decade. So, from 1980s to 2010s, assuming even distribution, which we have no reason to, the difference on average height would be 2 cm. I'd say it's negligible, or inside the margins of statistical error. So, we can't assume Maradona would be 170cm had he been born today.

 

[devo901]

From 1870 to 1970, an average height grew for 11 cm.
1,1 cm per decade.

In the last few decades it grew even faster.
So:
Crujff with 180 in 70s would have been 186cm today.
Pele with 173 in 60s would have been 180-181cm today.
Rivaldo with 186 in late 90s would have been 189cm today.
Van Basten, Rijkaard and Gullit with 188, 190 and 191 from late 80s and 90s would have been 192, 194 and 195cm today.

Maradona with 165cm in 1986 would have been around 169-170 cm today.
So, Maradona wasn't any shorter than average man in 1986 than Messi is today.
Relatively, they were of the same height.

Very good point.


Something that might be overelooked is that body-physics measurements, do not translate easily into benefits/cons in complex movements, like running, according to bio-mechanics.

Usain Bolt (tall, long legs) bolt

Michael Johnson (normal size, short legs for his size) johnson

or take Carl lewis and Ben Johnson http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/001064/f1/0622johnson08-v6.jpg

 

[BBZ8800]

Seriea 80s wasnt harder than Messi's Liga.
How many European cup that Seriea 80s team win at this time?
Saying football nowaday is easier is absurb.

Imo, teams were more even.
The richest club back then had 10m to spend.
Other teams had 1-2m to spend.

Today, Barca can spend 1 billion, and smaller clubs have 20m budget.

Big players were spread evenly in league teams in 80s, 90s and 00s.
Today you have superclubs who are totally dominating their leagues and winning 6:1, 7:1 or 11:1, like Bayern with 7-8 titles in a row, Juve the same, Psg the same.

It was like an amateur sport back then while today it is like 1-2 super rich teams per country statpadding and terorizing poor clubs.
This is why even CR7, Neymar and Lewa could score 50 goals today.
In 1988, a top scorer of Seria a was Maradona with 15 goals.
In 1990 Van Basten with 19.
Neymar scored 24 league goals in 2016 and 22 in 2015.
Suarez had 40 league goals in 2016.
Does that mean that Suarez is twice as better than Van Basten?
Or that even Neymar is a more lethal finisher than Van Basten?

Good old Batistuta played for a majority of his career for Fiorentina, who were a part of big7 in Italy in 90s (Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Parma, Fiorentina).
His league records are 26, 23, 21, 21, 20.

Anyway, players like Maradona and Batistuta plsyed for Napoli and Fiorentina back then.
If it were today's era, Barca or Bayern would have all of these players in their team and they would be statpadding with 7:1 per match.

Also remember that EU was small back then and that majority of European players were non EU.
Rakitic, Modric, Kovacic, Oblak, Handanovic and co would play for midtable teams back then due to 3 foreigners rule.

Also, regarding your question about Italians winning CLs: teams were even back then.
Italians or Barca weren't any better than Psv or Crvena Zvezda who used to win CLs in late 80s and 90s.

Football was like olympic basketball in the past and an amateur sport back then.
Today's football is like NBA or NHL vs naive olympic teams, except that you have only 1-2 superrich teams per country.
Like Bayern...

I am not talking against Messi, but scoring numbers by all top Cfs today are boosted.
Due to a huge difference between big and small teams and thus teams like Alaves can't even enter into our half at Camp Nou.

All stats from today should be lowered by probably 150-300% compared to 70s, 80s, 90s or early 00s.

I mean, Salah, Mane, Alexis and Aubameyang are scoring more goals than prime Batistuta and Van Basten.
That can't be right, isn't it?

There is a strong reason why Suarez is statpadding in La Liga and can't do anything in a CL againt better teams.
Because leagues became a statpadding festivals.

https://youtu.be/Tpgv_5JFJNQ