On the other thread i asked you to name an ideal 11, in 2022 since you criticize all lineups people post.
Lionel Messi - v7
- Thread starter Barcaman
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On the other thread i asked you to name an ideal 11, in 2022 since you criticize all lineups people post.
Centauri B
New member
Maradona was quite unfit by today's standards. He carried extra weight. If you see shirtless photos of him, you can see that there is no definition in his muscles. This is definitely not the case with Messi who is absolutely shredded by comparison.
The comparison between Messi and Diego dies very quickly if one merely goes into the trouble of actually watching games of the two. Messi is clearly the superior player. Now, I understand the emotional attachment that many have for Diego, but if we are being honest, there is not much to compare.
Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor
Banned
BBZ the argument that Messi needs world class players around him has been pretty much thrown put of the water considering what he did the last two years. How much help has he had from his teammates? Of the 20 seasons the other 10 players have given him the following help imho
Pique 1 season
Lenglet half a season
Umtiti half a season
Alba 1 season
Coutinho 4 months.
That's it. I won't count Mats because he is not outfield but the fact Mats has arguably been our second best player says it all. Messi has single handedly kept us competitive these last 2 years and is as impressive as what Maradona did for Napoli for me.
Not that Napoli had scrubs either, that's a complete myth. In the same way we had MSN here, Napoli had MA-GI-CA. Maradona Giordano and the legendary Antonio Careca. Maradona also had one of the top 10 greatest footballers of all time to play with internationally in Batistuta. If Messi had Batigol in front of him I am certain he would have a world cup and a Copa America to his name.
Pique 1 season
Lenglet half a season
Umtiti half a season
Alba 1 season
Coutinho 4 months.
That's it. I won't count Mats because he is not outfield but the fact Mats has arguably been our second best player says it all. Messi has single handedly kept us competitive these last 2 years and is as impressive as what Maradona did for Napoli for me.
Not that Napoli had scrubs either, that's a complete myth. In the same way we had MSN here, Napoli had MA-GI-CA. Maradona Giordano and the legendary Antonio Careca. Maradona also had one of the top 10 greatest footballers of all time to play with internationally in Batistuta. If Messi had Batigol in front of him I am certain he would have a world cup and a Copa America to his name.
Centauri B
New member
During Maradona's first season at Napoli, they finished 8th. Clearly, for all of Maradona's immense talent, it was not even enough for 7th (and he was not the only player brought in that summer) That season, Hellas Verona won it, who was the GOAT leading them? Or were they stacked with superstars? Are Ekjaer & Briegel better than Messi as well? During Maradona's second season at Napoli, they could only finish 3rd. The improvement from 8th to 3rd can be explained by the arrival of new players such Bruno and Renica as well as the emergence of Ciro Ferrara. Next season they won it, with the additions of De Napoli in midfield and Carnevale in attack who scored only 2 goals less than Maradona despite not taking any penaldos.
I encourage anyone who likes to act as if they know football, to actually go back and watch games of both Napoli and Argentina 1986 to see for themselves that these were actually extremely potent sides and not the one-man teams that the anti-Messi crusaders like to pretend they were.
MagIX
Senior Member
serghei
Senior Member
Haven't seen Maradona playing live (live as in tv coverage in present time, only followed football intensely since post 1995), but based on the highlights from youtube, it's an even split between him and Messi. Both come across as completely different personalities, and both are completely shaped by the era and the circumstances they were brought in.
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devo901
New member
found something here... maradona 1990 naked that was already rather at the end of his career ... however by the standards of 1990 that was not completely off - though it is clearly for today. Also because today there are dangerous medications that help you shrinking fat cells - were not that popular back then ...
MagIX
Senior Member
Probably you've confused Batistuta with Valdano (WC 1986)...
Maradona with Batistuta has won nothing...
Centauri B
New member
That's exactly my point. Maradona was a fat bastard.
How is it an even split?
Messi is: a) Faster, b) More focused & decisive, c) Sharper, especially with his shooting. Otherwise, uncannily similar in terms of style. Even the way the opposing players react to both are identical (especially the way defenders just flock to them when they get the ball in a dangerous area or when two defenders do the double-team marking with one fouling slightly and the other one closely marking)
Centauri B
New member
Valdano, Buruchaga, Brown, Olarticoechea, Giusti, Batista, Pumpido all had an excellent tournament in 1986, they were a very well organized and very well drilled team.
serghei
Senior Member
Everything works in favour of players from today being superior athletes. Nutrition, vitamins, fitness recovery post-matches, better & more advanced pre-match training regimes, better technology, higher quality football fields (some of the fields in the 86 World Cup in Mexico are miles away form the perfectly cut grass on Camp Nou for example, some of today's pitches resemble a snooker table in smoothness), more super-clubs with higher talent concentration, rules that favor attackers and punish tackles much more harshly (some of the tackles Maradona faced would be instant red cards today, even two-footers).
It's just a natural advancement of things, which also affects sports as much as any aspect of life. Would you say the invention of a new iphone today, that can capture insane images and do insane things, is more impressive than the first exemplaries of landline telephone which appeared in mass-production back in the 1910's? Everything has to be judged within the boundaries of their respective times. Great things and insane players are the same. Maradona, Pele aren't any weaker than Messi, guaranteed. And if we want Messi to not be a victim of nostalgia bias, and seen as lesser than Maradona, Pele, than the vice-versa also applies in full. There is no greatest of all time, only at most greatest of an era, and even that is debatable.
Every 30 or so years, things change so much that the times influence aspects of life to such a high degree that you can't draw such lofty conclusions, as who the greatest is.
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MagIX
Senior Member
don't need to do back and watch the games, I've lived through that time, I saw a lot of matches of Napoli and I saw all the matches of Argentina at the 1986 WC, i don't need to go to wikipedia or youtube
Briefly...
probably Maradona had the best performance ever in a WC, the best Maradona ever. Argentina scored 14 goals, Maradona had 5 golas and 5 assists. Dispite the goals and assists, his performance has been OUTSTANDIG, out of this world.
But soccer is a team sport. Even Maradona said that it's not true that he won on his own the WC, he said that the team won the WC and that team was GREAT.... he said if someone says he was the best in that team, it's simply an honor to hear that.
With Napoli..... he was a leader, he was a magician, everybody wanted to play with him, everybody played better with him on the field.
But soccer is a team sport. Napoli had never won anything, was the poor team of the south, with him on the field and with the arrival of strong players they won 2 Scudetti and a UEFA Cup. Napoli was a good team, but nothing exceptional, for sure not extremly potent.
Messi and Maradona are the best i hve evere seen, not because of what they won (again, soccer is a team sport), but for what they do/did on the field, no one else even comes close.
serghei
Senior Member
Great insight man. You should post more often. We miss more mature fans like that over here...
Centauri B
New member
Maradona was not playing against players from the 2010s, but against players from the 1980s. Messi has to shine through his own era and Diego shown through his. So there is a symmetry here.
Defenders were allowed a bit more back then, that is true, but defenses are more systematic today. I am also 100% aware that club football in the 80s was more defensive than it is today, which is why I am not directly comparing Messi's stats with Maradona's. I will only compare them in relative terms and will give Maradona some handicap because his Napoli was for sure not as good as Barca these past 15 years. BUT, I cannot accept that Napoli was an average team, and contrary to what [MENTION=5755]MagIX[/MENTION] says, during the Maradona years, they were not poor at all, in matter of fact they broke the world transfer record to bring Maradona to Italy and also brought in several other good to great players during that exact period.
Another fact that was mentioned earlier and I have to stress again is over the issue of goalscoring. Maradona never outscored the best number 9s of his era, in matter of fact, he was getting significantly outscored. Messi on the other hand, easily outscores every single number 9 of his.
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