Lionel Messi - v7
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DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Napoli were among the biggest spending teams at the time Maradona was king. They broke the world transfer record at the time to sign him and had several prominent Italian NT players in their team as well. IIRC they had by far the best defense in their title runs too, something like 16 or 18 clean sheets in one of those seasons. Guys like Di Napoli, Ciro Ferrara, Giordano, Careca, and many more were highly elite players at the time.
Besides, Hellas Verona literally just a few seasons before were in Serie B in like 1982. Then got promoted and immediately jumped to the top 5 and went on to win the title in 1985. Was Elkjaer ever lauded as a 1 man team for that? No. The landscape of the league was very different and allowed for upwards mobility from lower teams much more. And Napoli themselves spent loads of money to reach that peak, and couldn't sustain it once Sacchi's Milan came around.
That's not to say Maradona is some kind of bum. He is one of the greats. I think he's level with or just behind R9 in terms of talent and those are the only 2 that could sniff Messi's boots. But Valdano put it perfectly:
"Messi is Maradona every day. For 5 years now, Messi is the Maradona of the World Cup in Mexico"
There's a lot you can say about the factors that differentiate eras. Nutrition, training, technology, all favor modern footballers. Pitches are better, the balls themselves are better. Rules are enforced better so defenders aren't as shamelessly violent as before (but this point has been greatly exaggerated by many people).
However, there's a lot to consider that makes it more difficult these days too. The talent pool across the world is much larger, and competition is at a much much higher level. Competition to rise up as an individual through youth ranks and into the professional sphere, but also competition against other teams which are now stronger too.
Tactics are much better now. Man marking, stiff lines of 4, general slower pace of play made it easier for amazing individuals to shine (like Maradona). Collective pressing systems and team pressure as a whole are concepts that have evolved MASSIVELY in the past 20-25 years. People talk a lot about offensive tempo but the tempo/pace of closing down on players has gone up drastically since the days of 80's Serie A.
Just watch those games if you want proof for yourself. It is no trick of the camera that it looks like players are moving more slowly and with less burst at the time, especially in defensive situations.
It is ludicrous to suggest that if Maradona were to play in modern football he'd suddenly be able to conjure up a historically great goalscoring ability out of nowhere, and be at Messi's level in that respect. Hell, it'd be even crazy to say he'd suddenly be as good of a passer as Leo (who is head and shoulders ahead of Maradona in this regard). Maradona never even had 10 recorded assists in a Serie A season while Messi has 3-4 years in his career that are probably top 10-20 all time in terms of assists across all competitions in a single season.
Now those stats definitely underrate Maradona as a playmaker as he was amazing, but it is just a fact that Leo is the better playmaker and scorer and there really shouldn't be any debate about it. If 1 tournament in WC86 is all it takes to make the case for Maradona > Messi, then tell me why James Rodriguez is not seen as one of the best players of the 2010's?
You can't make such grand and defining claims about career greatness, especially compared to Messi, by just magnifying the single shiniest moment of Maradona's career. Messi has at least 3 CL campaigns with consistently more amazing performances against MUCH more difficult competition. If you defined Messi's career solely by 2011 CL, it would shit all over Maradona's WC 86.
It's just a copout to say "we can't compare because eras" or use the hyperbole of the "different eras" argument to radically inflate Maradona by saying he'd be as good or better than Messi now.
Besides, Hellas Verona literally just a few seasons before were in Serie B in like 1982. Then got promoted and immediately jumped to the top 5 and went on to win the title in 1985. Was Elkjaer ever lauded as a 1 man team for that? No. The landscape of the league was very different and allowed for upwards mobility from lower teams much more. And Napoli themselves spent loads of money to reach that peak, and couldn't sustain it once Sacchi's Milan came around.
That's not to say Maradona is some kind of bum. He is one of the greats. I think he's level with or just behind R9 in terms of talent and those are the only 2 that could sniff Messi's boots. But Valdano put it perfectly:
"Messi is Maradona every day. For 5 years now, Messi is the Maradona of the World Cup in Mexico"
There's a lot you can say about the factors that differentiate eras. Nutrition, training, technology, all favor modern footballers. Pitches are better, the balls themselves are better. Rules are enforced better so defenders aren't as shamelessly violent as before (but this point has been greatly exaggerated by many people).
However, there's a lot to consider that makes it more difficult these days too. The talent pool across the world is much larger, and competition is at a much much higher level. Competition to rise up as an individual through youth ranks and into the professional sphere, but also competition against other teams which are now stronger too.
Tactics are much better now. Man marking, stiff lines of 4, general slower pace of play made it easier for amazing individuals to shine (like Maradona). Collective pressing systems and team pressure as a whole are concepts that have evolved MASSIVELY in the past 20-25 years. People talk a lot about offensive tempo but the tempo/pace of closing down on players has gone up drastically since the days of 80's Serie A.
Just watch those games if you want proof for yourself. It is no trick of the camera that it looks like players are moving more slowly and with less burst at the time, especially in defensive situations.
It is ludicrous to suggest that if Maradona were to play in modern football he'd suddenly be able to conjure up a historically great goalscoring ability out of nowhere, and be at Messi's level in that respect. Hell, it'd be even crazy to say he'd suddenly be as good of a passer as Leo (who is head and shoulders ahead of Maradona in this regard). Maradona never even had 10 recorded assists in a Serie A season while Messi has 3-4 years in his career that are probably top 10-20 all time in terms of assists across all competitions in a single season.
Now those stats definitely underrate Maradona as a playmaker as he was amazing, but it is just a fact that Leo is the better playmaker and scorer and there really shouldn't be any debate about it. If 1 tournament in WC86 is all it takes to make the case for Maradona > Messi, then tell me why James Rodriguez is not seen as one of the best players of the 2010's?
You can't make such grand and defining claims about career greatness, especially compared to Messi, by just magnifying the single shiniest moment of Maradona's career. Messi has at least 3 CL campaigns with consistently more amazing performances against MUCH more difficult competition. If you defined Messi's career solely by 2011 CL, it would shit all over Maradona's WC 86.
It's just a copout to say "we can't compare because eras" or use the hyperbole of the "different eras" argument to radically inflate Maradona by saying he'd be as good or better than Messi now.
Centauri B
New member
[MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION]
Post of the year.
Every football fan should read it.
Post of the year.
Every football fan should read it.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
There was never a domination like today.
Psg, Juve, Bayern, for example.
That is not a coincidence.
For younger fans, a small homework to understand WHY the teams were more even then and why teams weren't winning 90-100 points like today.
So, imagine if we have a current squad and that we can have only 3 foreigners.
That would mean let's say Messi, Suarez, Frenkie.
So, that means bye bye to: Mats, Lenglet, Umtiti, Semedo, Firpo, Rakitic, Arthur, Vidal, Dembele, Griezmann.
Let's say that our team would been something like: Kepa - Alba, Bartra, Pique, Roberto - Busi, Frenkie, Fabregas (Alena) - Pedro, Suarez, Messi.
Now also, add that there was no internet and an insane earnings. And that we had let's say 100m budget for transfers.
Now add that players who don't have room at Barca would have played in smaller Spanish teams.
The same applies for Real's players.
So, let's say that our current players would have been spread this way in other La liga teams:
Foreigners per team:
Barca: Messi, Sukki, Frenkie
Real: Benzema, Hazard, Bale
Atletico: Griezz, Coutinho, Vidal
Sevilla: Modric, Rakitic, Jovic
Valencia: Kroos, Arthur, Felix
Villareal: James, Dembele, Malcom
Betis: Kovacic, Casemiro, Lemar
Celta: Banega, Partey, Vinicius
Espanyol: Marcelo, Oblak, Correa
Alaves: Cillessen, Paulinho, Chicarito
Mallorca: Andre Gomes, Varane, Rodrygo
Osasuna: Umtiti, Semedo, Boateng
Valladolid: Navas, Gimenez, Lenglet
Levante: Firpo, Turan, Digne
Leganes: Mendy, Valverde, Militao
Girona: Mina, Marlon, Todibo
So, do you see my point?
You have a domino effect in two ways:
1. Our team is way weaker
2. And all the foreigners from our team would have been spread over other La liga teams
And now, we would have a team with Bartra, Roberto, Busi, Fabregas, Pedro today.
Does that team looks THAT strong? No.
On the other hand, look at our midfield (Busi-Frenkie-Fab) vs Atletico: Koke-Cou-Vidal.
Or Sevilla Modric-Rakitic-Oliver Torres.
Or Valencia: Kroos, Arthur, Parejo, Felix?
You see, this is why 80s and 90s were tough.
Top clubs weren't as rich and they had only 3 foreigners.
And then, we had 5-6 equal teams on top and 5-6 strong midtable teams.
In my example, a 6th placed team has James, Dembele and Malcom.
Would you be happy to face them with Barta, Pique, Roberto defense or Busi-Fabregas midfield?
And now, imagine a difference in 80s when Messi and others had to play with crappy domestic teammates.
Results were 2:1 and 2:0 all the time.
And then fast forward to 2017 when RM and CR7 are winning 11:1 and CR7 looks like an alien...
Also, another thing for homework: imagine a current team: Kepa, Alba, Bartra, Pique, Bob, Busi, Frenkie, Fabregas, Pedro, Sukki, Messi.
And then we have only 100m yearly to spend.
And in two years, we will lose Pique, Busi, Pedro, Messi and Sukki.
We will spend 111m for Lautaro.
And then what?
For 90m we need a Cb, a pivot, a Lw and a Rw.
We would promote Araujo and play Bartra-Araujo defense, Frenkie-Puig-Alena/Fab midfield and Fati-Lautaro and some cheap Rw.
Also, our Fcs would score even harder since Oblak, Cillessen, Navas would play in smaller teams. The same as Varane, Umtiti, Lenglet, Semedo, Firpo, Mendy, Marcelo, Militao, Mina, Todibo...
When you sum it all, it is clearer why Van Basten and Batistuta had 20 goals per season, and Suarez, Neymar, Lewa can have 30-40.
Big teams are too rich.
They have all players.
Which weakened the opponents.
Plus, the difference between big and small is so big that matches in 80s looked like 8:5 in shots on goal and today it is more like 20:5 in shots with an absolute domination of rich teams.
And a player like Van Basten or Batistuta had like 1-2 shots per match in 80-90s, while Suarez or CR7 get 4-5 shots today against smaller teams.
And voila, of course that they are statpadding their numbers.
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Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor
Banned
Fine. You make an excellent case why you can't look at stats alone when judging players. But I don't think anyone here prefers Messi over Diego because of his goals. It's down to the eye test.
You still don't explain why Diego can't shoot, pass or dribble as well as Leo. That barometer bypasses any era bias. There's no excuse for the fact Diego did everything slower either.
For example Messis goal vs Alaves. It would have been rare for Diego to score on the run like that whipping the ball in to the near post even if he had played against the exact same Alaves players. For Messi it was just another goal we see regularly. Given this how can anyone put Diego above Messi.
Centauri B
New member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]
I see your point which is only partially valid. I have to go to bed now, so I will reply tomorrow.
I see your point which is only partially valid. I have to go to bed now, so I will reply tomorrow.
Messigician
Senior Member
Bbz has a good point tbh
Napoli winning title was great achievement but they were a better side than given credit for (better than Valverde's Barca).
And Verona were the reigning champions
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor; said:
I am not even claiming that Messi isn't a Goat of all time.
I am only cautious about current numbers.
Especially coming from a fact that CR7 looks like the 2nd best player in a history and Suarez looks like the 2nd best attacker who has ever played for Barca.
Or Neymar.
My main point is that stats are probably 200% inflated in a current era.
Another thing to consider:
1. In 80s and 90s, rich teams weren't as rich and we didn't have a monopolly over all superstars
2. In 2019, Barca, Bayern, Juve, Psg have like 7-8 league titles in a row
3. In 2050, it is very likely, unless if Uefa will event some strict fair play and a salary cap, Barca, Bayern and co will get even more richer compared to their league opponents which means that we will hoard even more big players in the same time.
Something like Messi-Suarez-Griezz-Felix-Koke-Frenkie-Arthur.
Teams like Atletico, Sevilla will turn to Mickey Mouse teams compared to us and we will steal all the players.
And then, an average home league match will look like this:
1986: Barca:Alaves 8:5 shots, 2:1 score
2019: Barca:Alaves 15:5 shots, 4:1 score
2050: Barca:Alaves 35:1 shots, 12:0 score
And now, let's assume that Barca's NO9 will tske 30% of all Barca's shots during a match.
That means that:
1986: a no9 will get 2,66 shots per match
2019: a no9 will get 5,00 shots per match
2050: a no9 will get 11,66 shots per match
And now, in total over 38 league rounds:
1986: a no9 will have roughly 102 shots over 1 season
2019: a no9 will get 190 shots per season
2050: a no9 will get 446 shots per season
Now, let's say that a No9 needs 6 shots on average for 1 goal.
That would mean:
1986: 102 shots=17 league goals
2019: 190 shots=32 league goals
2050: 446 shots=74 league goals per season
So, my point is=at this rate and with big teams getting richer and richer, a difference between big and small will be way bigger.
We will buy ALL best players in the world.
And hoard 20-25 world class players on the bench.
We will dominate more and more in terms of shots per match.
And then, some kid who will be born in January of 2020, and who will play for Barca, Bayern or Psg from 2040-2055 will have:
15 league titles in a row
3-4 CLs
3-4-5 Ballon D Ors
Let's say 1 World Cup or Euro
And 10 seasons with 70 league goals per seasons, 10 Cl goals and 5 Nt goals per season.
That will be 85 goals per season.
Those will be way better numbers than Messi's or CR7's.
Now the question:
Is that kid from 2040-2055 THAT good or have the circumstances of that era turned him into a goalscoring and recordbreaking machine?
Again, I am not talking about Messi.
Numbers from CR7, Suarez, Lewa, Neymar are way too high compared to their skills.
And imo, if Cr7 played from 2040-2055, he would have scored even double compared to today.
So=the same player as today, yet his numbers would be 200% higher.
Has he improved for 200% or is he scoring that much due to these super-clubs and super-allstar teams playing against poor bottom table teams?
Cr7 and Suarez have way higher scoring records per single season than R9 Ronaldo.
I mean, Suarez who can't control the ball properly or make a simple pass...
And this kid made all of this in ONLY ONE season at Barca aged 18, when we weren't as rich and when we could have played with only 3 foreigners:
https://youtu.be/-FFCqP8nTTw
In the current era of bullying small teams, R9 from this video would have 50-60 league goals easily.
Or 100-120 goals in 2050 when the gulf in money and quality between teams will be even bigger.
Mitchell1978
Senior Member
Real Madrid never won 11-1 (in the last decades) and you make it sound that barça and real score 5+ goals against almost every team in LL, that simply isn't true (even less so in the last couple of seasons).
Lets look at actual numbers in stead of your made up numbers and arguments.
average goal per game per decade in La Liga: from https://www.bdfutbol.com/en/t/trgpp1.html
2010s: 2,74
2000s: 2,66
1990s: 2,56
1980s: 2,49
There's a small graduall increase but nothing major (pre WW2 the average was around 4)
(this year so far its 2,61 and last year 2,59 very average really).
Thats not to say you should just compare numbers through era's but when you compare great players from the 80s and 90s vs their peers they don't stand out as much as Messi and CR7 do.
Maradona was the topscorer in serie A once, Van Basten twice. Both had rather short primes because of injuries and off court issues.
Its also possible that the added strains of modern day football (higher tempo, more matches) would hurt injury prone players even more.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Lol.
Why are you looking a total increase of goals per game?
There are 10 matches per round.
Even if Barca/Real would double their scoring numbers, that would have been a 200% growth for 2 teams out of 20.
So, 90% of teams would have the same numbers snd 10% of teams would double their numbers.
About Real and high scores, here we go:
2015/16:
10:2 Rayo
7:1 Celta
6:0 Espanyol
6:0 Espanyol
5:0 Betis
5:0 Deportivo
5:1 Gijon
5:1 Getafe
That is 49 goals for Real in only 8 matches.
For example, AC Milan who won Champions league in 1994, trashing Barca 4:0 in a final, won Seria A in that season with a total goal difference 36:15 lol.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993%E2%80%9394_Serie_A
Real scored 49 goals in 8 matches in 2016.
Chanpions of Europe, who humiliated our team in 1994, were scoring 1 goal per match in 1994.
The best scorer from Milan in that league season was Massaro with: lol, wait for it... 11 goals.
Are Suarez and Cr7 400-500% better players than Massaro?
Or, let's travel through time into 1989:
Champions in top5 leagues:
Real 91 goals
Arsenal 73 goals
Napoli 57 goals
Bayern 67 goals
Marseille 56 goals
Average per champion=68,8 goals
2019:
Barcelona 90 goals
City 95 goals
Juventus 70
Bayern 88
Psg 105 goals
Average per champion=89,6
So, in 1989 an average per champion was 69 goals, today is 90 goals.
That is 21 goals more.
Since Messi, Cr7 and co are scoring 40-50% of goals for their teams, that is easily a 10 league goals per season inflation per top player, even by these simplified stats.
Then again, add a CL where only champions played.
And Cr7 wouldn't bang 100 goals in 10 years but more like 10+10 goals in 2 years and his team wouldn't even play in a CL.
So, in the case of a CR7:
In 1980s, he would score 20 league goals per season.
And he would have played in a CL only 2-3 times.
Yet, in a current era, he is a monster with 30-40 league goals per season and 10+ goals each season in a CL (100-ish in total).
If he would have played in 80s, nobody would even remember his numbers today.
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Mitchell1978
Senior Member
they are for shure much much better then a player who scored in double figures twice and who was never even close to being topscorer in the league
Suarez has been topscorer in 3 leagues (dutch, PL and LL), CR7 in 2 leagues and top 3 in scoring in league play 11 or 12 times
So yeah for shure 4 or 5 times better.
Btw Signori was topscorer with 23 goals in the seria a that year, not an extraordinary low number (only a handfull players scored more league goals in Europe last year then that).
Milan was just a very defensive and low scoring team back then.
And even in the 80s, 90s some players still put up huge numbers like Hugo Sanchez who scored 38 goals in 1989/90 (Polster had 33 that same year). Romario had 30 in the early 90s and so on.
Lies and generalisations as usual from you.
Messi has scored 40 - 44 % of his team league goals 3 times, CR7 did that once.
I think CR7 is overrated, an all time great but still overrated but yeah he's a top 10 goalscorer of all time who would put up numbers in the 80s if he was in his prime back then (certainly with todays fitness and nutrition).
Those 2 players, Messi because of his finishing, shooting and overall ability and CR7 because of his movement paired with great playmakers around him like in Madrid, when in their primes would drastically augment their team's numbers of goals.
Barça and Real scoring 100+ maybe even 90+ league goals don't happen without those players.
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Centauri B
New member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]
Who ever said that if Messi & Ronaldo played in the 80s they would score at exactly the same rate? Nobody.
What everyone is telling you about Maradona & Van Basten, is that they are not in relative terms as impressive in terms of goals scored as Messi & CR7 are. Messi & CR7 outscore every single one of their peers in recent years by a massive margin. Maradona & van Basten could never do that.
Who ever said that if Messi & Ronaldo played in the 80s they would score at exactly the same rate? Nobody.
What everyone is telling you about Maradona & Van Basten, is that they are not in relative terms as impressive in terms of goals scored as Messi & CR7 are. Messi & CR7 outscore every single one of their peers in recent years by a massive margin. Maradona & van Basten could never do that.
Centauri B
New member
What you say there is partly true and partly untrue. In reality, only some of the top players released by the big teams would end-up in the smaller teams, most of them would be playing back home as was the case back in Maradona's day. Most players from Argentina's 1986 winning team were playing in Argentina at the time as was the case with most Brazilians from the magical 1982 team. How many Latin American players were in Europe or more particularly in Italy back then? Extremely few compared to today. How many east European players played in the big West European leagues in the 80s? Almost none, they were all in teams like Partizan, Red Star, CSKA Sofia, Dynamo Kiev, Haiduk Split, Steaua Bucharest, Spartak Moscow etc etc. How many good African or African-origin players were there in Maradona's day? Almost none. How many are there today? Hundreds?
As for the smaller Liga teams in this hypothetical scenario, if they were to take some of the good players Barca/Real/Atleti would release, then they would have to send away all the foreigners they have now, and they have many (just look at Valencia's, Sociedad's and even Eibar's rosters)
Yes, I am in total agreement when you say that back in the 80s league football was more balanced than today, but it's not that it was totally balanced. You still had teams that were apart from the others, AC Milan won 3 titles in a row in the early 90s.
My point here is that if we are to adjust today's era to conform to 80s standards, then we must send the vast majority of foreign players back to their native countries which would drastically reduce the available pool of good players for small Liga teams to recruit. If however, the scenario you are envisioning above would be the case, then yes, La Liga would be an inferno out of which nobody would know who would win.
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RevoTeller
New member
He is right, simple as that.
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