Lionel Messi - v7

[KingLeo10]

Another player who's hamstrung himself with arrogance or tactical stupidity is Neymar.

His 14/15 version was one of the best finishers across Europe in big games and he used to own full backs for fun.

Started playing through the middle more and more, lost his athletic edge with poor conditioning, and became like half as effective in big games.

5-7 years of his 14-15 level would have earned him a spot among the top 10-20 to play the game. Shame.

 

[KingLeo10]

It doesn't help that the midfield is ass at creating anything vs good teams. Proven time after time how they're unable to withstand any pressure from the opponent and are unable to advance the ball into the final third.

If you give this midfield the keys to bring the ball to Messi in advanced positions it will end up with them sideways passing it until they lose the ball. Improve the midfield first.

I used to think more along this but we've added several new midfielders over the years, including the best young midfielder in Europe last season in FDJ. Messi still drops deep far too much and is tactically undisciplined. I'm not saying the midfield is golden either but that two things can be true at the same time.

 

[Rory]

For me it's the frequency he drops deep that has to change. When Puig is on the pitch he seems to trust him with creativity. If our midfield can include him and perhaps de jong who is more capable of pushing forward then naturally he will drop deep less. He's been dropping deep his whole career so that's not going to change, nor should it, but probably half as frequently as he does would be a good place to get to.

 

[serghei]

It doesn't help that the midfield is ass at creating anything vs good teams. Proven time after time how they're unable to withstand any pressure from the opponent and are unable to advance the ball into the final third.

If you give this midfield the keys to bring the ball to Messi in advanced positions it will end up with them sideways passing it until they lose the ball. Improve the midfield first.

That's not it. He does this even 5 minute after kick off. How does he know the midfield is not doing its job if the game barely even started? He simply doesn't have the drive to play in more advanced areas and fight off players.

So he drops deep because in this way he gets on the ball with minimal effort. No opponent tracks him when he drops deep because why would they? He's walking outside their danger zone by doing that.

 

[KingLeo10]

He's been dropping deep his whole career so that's not going to change, nor should it, but probably half as frequently as he does would be a good place to get to.

It should. The best evolve as time passes. He isn't in his prime anymore to pull off the midfield runs/dribble through the opposition anymore.

CR7 evolved from a dribbling show pony to a counter attacking machine to a penalty box fox.

 

[DonAK]

I used to think more along this but we've added several new midfielders over the years, including the best young midfielder in Europe last season in FDJ. Messi still drops deep far too much and is tactically undisciplined. I'm not saying the midfield is golden either but that two things can be true at the same time.

He still drops too deep, but Frenkie is hardly playing in his most ideal position in this setup. We also have no creativity from the wings or the other midfield positions. Busquets can make those passes between the lines and over the top, but the last couple of years there's been fewer of them or just worse execution.

Ironically Pjanic is probably going to make a difference here because he's good at that.

That's not it. He does this even 5 minute after kick off. How does he know the midfield is not doing its job if the game barely even started?

Becuase he knows this midfield is not capable of doing it as they let Griezmann do the same when Messi was out.

When Messi stayed in a more advanced position than usual at Anfield you saw how it went.

 

[serghei]

Becuase he knows this midfield is not capable of doing it as they let Griezmann do the same when Messi was out.

There's no such thing. Teams having far weaker players than us in midfield are able to pass, and Barca can't? If they can't it's because him and Suarez are moving like they're the zombies from Walking Dead up front.

They create the problem because their movement up front is disastrous.

 

[DonAK]

There's no such thing. Teams having far weaker players than us are able to pass in midfield, and Barca can't. If they can't it's because him and Suarez are moving like they're the zombies from Walking Dead.

Those teams have way more athletic midfielders. They can you know, actually step up and dribble pass a player to get out of pressure and move forward. Our midfielders move like zombies from the walking dead too, apart from Frenkie and Riqui.

 

[serghei]

Those teams have way more athletic midfielders. They can you know, actually step up and dribble pass a player to get out of pressure and move forward. Our midfielders move like zombies from the walking dead too, apart from Frenkie and Riqui.

De Jong, Roberto, Puig, Vidal are all athletic.

Anyway, fair enough if you believe that. One thing's for sure, another season like that, and retirement is around the corner. Except set pieces, Mess was largely average this season considering the credit he has in the team.

 

[DonAK]

De Jong, Roberto, Puig, Vidal are all athletic.

Anyway, fair enough if you believe that. One thing's for sure, another season like that, and retirement is around the corner.

de Jong only arrived this season and Messi has shown he trusts Riqui to carry the ball when he's on the pitch by staying closer to the box, go and watch some videos of it. Get more players like that.

When you start Rakitic - Busquets - Vidal in a game vs a top opponent the midfield just have no chance. Not good enough.

 

[serghei]

de Jong only arrived this season and Messi has shown he trusts Riqui to carry the ball when he's on the pitch. Get more players like that.

Do you saw his production when he drops? Turnover machine. Even if he drops because he's not getting good service, he is even worse when he drops. Stay up and move more, but Messi and Suarez at this point don't want to work too hard. Both are 1-2 seasons away from retiring because of being physically unable to play at the speed and rhythm of the game today.

There's a reason almost all players retire from elite football at 34-35. Especially players from attack where speed and movement are important.

 

[DonAK]

Do you saw his production when he drops? Turnover machine. Even if he drops because he's not getting good service, he is even worse when he drops.

Him dropping down deep have become a habit for him borne out of frustration IMO. And now he sees himself as some kind of hybrid playmaker. There's plenty of games where he's tried to keep a more advanced/wide position where the ball doesn't get to him nearly enough as it should. That's when he loses his patience and drops down deeper.

My suggestion: Sign better midfielders so he won't need to do that and can break that habit.

Pjanic like I said is actually going to help here. I would not mind either one of Thiago or Ndombele(issues with his fitness/stamina though) either, and give Riqui more minutes.

Retire Rakitic and Vidal. Tell Busquets he's not an automatic starter anymore.

 

[serghei]

Him dropping down deep have become a habit for him borne out of frustration IMO. And now he sees himself as some kind if hybrid playmaker.

My suggestion: Sign better midfielders so he won't need to do that and can break that habit.

Pjanic like I said is actually going to help here. I would not mind either one of Thiago or Ndombele(issues with his fitness/stamina though) either, and give Riqui more minutes.

Retire Rakitic and Vidal.

No doubt. Retire Rakitic and Vidal for now. And in 2 years, Messi and Suarez. By 2022-23 we should be with a new offense, made of mobile, fast and hungry players.

We'd all want to have 2011 Messi again. But time gets to everybody.

 

[KingLeo10]

Our midfield isn't any worse than Juve's at creating chances. Our fullbacks are marginally better in the attack. Still, you don't see CR7 dropping deep to build up attacks, even though he is better at doing this than people give him credit for (obviously not Messi level in playmaking but still). The better solution is to move more up front and create easier passes for the midfield, which generally doesn't happen to be precision machines like Xavi/Iniesta unless you're very fortunate.

 

[DonAK]

Our midfield isn't any worse than Juve's at creating chances. Our fullbacks are marginally better in the attack. Still, you don't see CR7 dropping deep to build up attacks, even though he is better at doing this than people give him credit for (obviously not Messi level in playmaking but still). The better solution is to move more up front and create easier passes for the midfield, which generally doesn't happen to be precision machines like Xavi/Iniesta unless you're very fortunate.

They have a creative player in Dybala and Pjanic is better at creating chances, splitting the defence, playing passes between the lines than any of our midfielders.

Our second most creative player after Messi is probably Busquets.