Luis Enrique

Raketa10

Senior Member
:goodpost:

I thought you hit the nail in the head. MSN does very little defending and does not drop back, our 3 midfielders are very stretched positionally (standing too far away from one another often), outnumbered and are slow chasing the ball, our wingbacks provide very little cover to our two CBs and if Ter Stegen hesitates to react, BAM, goal conceded guaranteed. We have seen this too many times. I can't believe Luis Enrique and his coaches don't have a remedy for this, at least not yet. The most depressing part is to see us failing in the same spot over, over and over again with no signs of improving at all.

This is our biggest problem! It is sooooo obvious and Lucho has no idea how to fix it. He is just ignoring it. Until when?!?!
 

Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
We can't control games like we used to and we can't press like we used to. We need to accept that, and do what every team does, that is work hard off the ball to close teams down. We need to improve our off the ball game, even if it means MSN need to stay less advanced and need to actually get involved in helping in defence.

Midfield is good in our team, it's just that it's playing against teams that bring more men in that zone, so it's impossible to control it when you are purely outnumbered. Teams crowd the midfield against us, and that gives them numerical advantage. So everytime we misplace a pass we're left in 3 vs 5 scenarios, because our tactic in possession is not about forming superiority in tight spaces, but exactly the opposite, stretching the play positionally, by having players at long distances between them. Look at this image:

barcacity.jpg


It's actually a 2 vs 5!!! here. Unacceptable. If we plan to play a long team in possession, stretched all over the field, then the pass has to be perfect. What's Busi supposed to do here, he's surrounded by City players FFS!

This style can work. We can move the ball well in a formation that consists of players being farther apart from each other in terms of distance. But if the pass is not good, then that extra distance between our players will kill us, especially when we play against teams that have a different approach and bring more men where the ball is. We have a positional play based on the individual quality of the players now. It's fine, but on an individual level we have to be strong.

The way we play right now, it's a 50-50 game. We can get to teams and score on the counter like we did and could've done more vs City in the first half, or we can make mistakes and concede goals.

I agree with a lot of your observations serghei but I don't agree with the premise of the argument. Sure we can't go back to the heydays of Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets midfield under Guardiola, the era of total control but that doesn't mean we shouldn't expect to have an adequate midfield that is capable of stabilizing and controlling the game. I think it is already apparent to many of us the midfield makes and breaks the game for us. The fact that under Luis Enrique we have been able to play more direct, bypassing the midfield with more counterattacks and the fact MSN has been able to ratchet up goal tallies does not mean we do not have a midfield problem, imagine if we had a better functioning midfield what would that have enabled MSN to do, and providing us with more options. We need to able to control games, not to the degree of Pep Barca but I don't think it is asking too much to do for example what Bayern midfield (often consisting of Thiago, Vidal and the aging Alonso these days) can do. I found myself drifting between training/tactical/Luis Enrique factor and our players' profile/abilities these days when trying to figure out why our midfield can not maintain that control. If it is the former, then we ought to do much better with existing players. Of course, having a midfielder like Gundogan would have helped.

Also, there is no reason why can't press like we did before. Is it because our players are not physically fit or capable to press? Or something else? Tactical decisions?

But yeah, what you said about improving our off the ball game rings very true to me. Our play is too static these days. Gone are those constant position switchings and dynamic off the ball plays, often our players just stand there waiting for the ball with very little effort to create chances for himself and his teammates these days. Very frustrating and painful to see.
 
Last edited:

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
Went back and finally watched all of the first half against City so I have a fuller picture of the game now.

This whole midfield argument is nothing new here. We've been complaining about our lack of control from MFs here since day one of Lucho getting here. He simply has a different interpretation of midfield play than previous Barca coaches, not just Pep. Someone, can't remember who, made a really good point in saying that Barca controlling the midfield has been a part of play for a very long time, that extends before Pep's era as a coach and to his time as a player here. For decades, we've always looked to have a true maestro, tempo-controlling, playmaking MF, from Laudrup, Pep, Riquelme (even though he didn't turn out the greatest, example of the type of player we had), Deco to Ronaldinho. These are all silk MFs. Lucho is about the steel and for his top-heavy approach, it makes sense.

His positional shape of keeping MSN high with overlapping FBs is all about being able to exploit space as quickly as possible and it works provided either A) the MF has control of the game enough to keep teams pinned in their half or B) we are defensively cohesive enough to drop deep and absorb pressure for MSN to explode on the counter. Point B is why Lucho likes steel and why he has gone for MFs like Rakitic, Arda, and Gomes while Rafinha has a lot of steel in his game for how quick and skilled he is. Recently, our failure and Lucho's failure has been the inability to do either strongly enough and I think like 70% of it is due to personnel problems and injuries.

As we all know, Iniesta or Rakitic must be on the field for A to happen. As soon as either come off, any replacement is just not going to be able to control games like they do so if that is the case, we need to phase into B and this is precisely what we aren't doing. In games in previous seasons, there were times were for 15 mins, possession would be like 55-45 but our MF would tuck in deep, we'd have two walls of 3 and 4 and that would allow MSN freedom to find space and counter. Recently, we have not been reactive in knowing when to drop off nor has our pressing been the greatest so we caught between the two and that's not a good place to be tactically. You either drop off deep or you press high collectively but one of the two must occur. Arda, Denis, Rafinha aren't really suited to dropping deep and when they come on and MSN aren't pressing, there is too much space between lines for teams to attack as you all have mentioned previously. That's why he really needs to field like with like much better in MF and find the right combinations and tactics that fit the players he fields. Playing with Denis and/or Rafinha in MF can work, it just requires MSN to do a bit more defensive work in pressuring the ball. Gomes in MF can work for us, it just requires Busi and Raki to tuck in more and play from deeper positions.

Lucho's problem during this dip has been him not using the right tactics for the right players, not to mention that its been difficult for players to get consistency in roles and systems with the injuries and him wanting us to try 3 back systems (which I'm ALL for). With Iniesta gone, we have lost a key player who allows us to be more flexible tactically on the fly because he is really the only MF who can function doing both (his defensive game has quietly improved under with his time with Lucho) so until we get him back, Lucho just needs to pick one emphasis or another based on the team we are playing.

This why I just think its short-sighted and forgetful to criticize Lucho's tactics for not having enough MF control. Granted there are times when we are numerically disadvantaged in MF, but those sort of characteristics aren't as pronounced in a more direct and defensively sound approach. So while at times it might be 5 v 3 in the MF, if we can break their pressing line with a long pass, a quick 1-2 or a dribble, then its a 4 v 3 with MSN. The idea of having Neymar and Suarez dropping more to cover defensively works fine, Real do the same thing with Bale coming deep for Ronaldo, but it sacrifices our numerical advantage on counters and it tires out Neymar/Suarez more, meaning they have to be subbed more or risk injury.

Plain and simple, its a trade-off that Lucho chooses, less control for more space to attack and in some ways, kinda shows that he is bringing a bit of Madrid to us from his experiences with them. I just don't understand how people can so assuredly state that Lucho's tactics are broken when we just hammered the same team a fortnight ago. ANY team is going to suffer in quality with injuries like we have and the times our defense has looked stretched with Pique and Alba back were largely games when Vidal or Mathieu were playing. So yeah, any coach's tactics will be exposed when they are without key players who make their system more feasible.

I'm not saying I wholeheartedly agree with Lucho's viewpoint. Anyone of you know actually follow my posts will know I'm much more of a purist and would prefer a more possession-heavy style. But to choose to levy this argument against him now seems unfair to him, considering the circumstances of both the team and the game itself. At full strength against City, whom I rate as probably the 3rd strongest team in Europe atm, we walked them and they really only had half chances, provided they made them well. City should be the toughest team we play until the quarter-finals (provided we get that far) and there were times last night where we were in the same groove. If Lucho's tactics were really that exposed and damaging, we wouldn't have been able to do that against Pep fucking Guardiola, the guy who made about half the players playing for us atm.

So to conclude, while I'd love a tiki-taka with MSN too, the only real MF who could really pull that off are Iniesta and kinda Rafinha/Denis. Denis has the passing vision and playmaking ability, Rafinha has some playmaking abilities (not as good as Denis tho imo) but is the strongest and quickest dribbler and is excellent at playing 1-2s but neither have the poise and experience yet to dominate games. Outside of them, none of our MFs have the quickness in mind or the vision to really flourish without Iniesta in a tiki-taka like system.

So going forward, I think a more direct and defensive system should be our way until Iniesta is back with Messi central as a 10 instead of on the wing and we shift into a diamond 4-3-1-2. I think with a steely MF of Raki-Busi-Gomes sitting deeper and just allowing Messi to roam through the center would work but the MF has to sit deeper than they play now and Busi would need to step up his defensive game too. But it puts less pressure on Rakitic to have to cover Messi's space wide, puts Messi in a more creative role that we need without Iniesta and would make the counters come off easier too.

Lastly, Bob probably had his worst game at RB for us last night. Its like his first bad game in a year and half and his mistake really flipped the game. We were in control against them until then and if we are up 1-0 at half time, the likelihood of them beating us, even if they had still outplayed us in the 2nd half would have been much lower. That and Rakitic's departure really gave them a chance to get into the game.

Big picture, I thought we were doing alright until we lost Iniesta. I always expected us to be weaker defensively this year without Dani but there is plenty to be optimistic and hopeful about. Umtiti looks fabulous here, Digne has been a solid signing and Denis and Gomes show a lot of promise so overall, once we get back at full strength, I think this spell will make us stronger and more resilient this season. We don't need a full on revolution from Lucho's tactics, we just need to do some tweaks, work it out in training and remember some of the things that brought us success. Pizjuan will be tough, tough, tough but the boys will have a point to prove and hopefully that extra fire will help us fight that little extra harder you have to in away games.

Besides, Real look FAR from convincing right now and look like they are in much bigger trouble than we are. I think we will beat them in December and a big win like that obviously will put us top but will be vital for us psychologically down the road.
 
Last edited:

serghei

Senior Member
Yea, in the end it's a trade off. Some teams will play their attacking game against Barcelona and crowd the midfield looking to control the game while they run the risk to leave MSN open. Man City knew the risk but played their game, accepting it. And, as a result, City did experience the problems that derive from leaving MSN too much space in the first half, as Messi, Neymar and Suarez all came close of scoring another goal or even 2 goals before errors started to creep in in our defence. In the first half our tactic had the better of Pep's. People forget that very fast and very easy.

That's why I said individual mistakes hurt us most.
 

Gaudi

Senior Member
That's what worries me as well, I see this happening over and over, I'm not sure Lucho sees the problem. Of course we have such a good team that can beat anyone anywhere if we are mistake free even with this tactics but I would like to see some tactics from Barca coach, he can't just pick first 11 and lead streching trainings. That even I can do for much less money :lol:. This is Barca and we need "THE COACH"!
 

serghei

Senior Member
I can't wait to play Sevilla and see where we are right now. We just need to win that game and it's not looking too bad. Madrid play Atletico right after the NT break. Odds are that if we take 3 pts on Pizjuan we'll be first in Spain soon.
 

FC B

Senior Member
Barca in the last 2 seasons has won a treble and a double and more trophies on top of that as well. Atletico and Dortmund have won pretty much nothing of note. It's still early man. We might very well play amazing in february - may and win big again.

Patience is key. We have a very good squad minus 1-2 positions that need one more player. But this new players can't play like they've been at Barcelona for years, when they only have a few months, and not even in those months have played a lot.

For example, this was Gomes' first big game for Barcelona. Just to put things into perspective. There are some problems that need fixing, but Lucho has shown before he can fix things.

Every Barca fan hopes that but there is little certainty Barca will streamroll its opponents in spring..
 

Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
[MENTION=10166]i_bleed_blaugrana[/MENTION], really good post. :goodpost:

I just wanted to point out a couple of things:

(1) Even with both Iniesta and Rakitic on, many times we have struggled to do (A). Injuries play a role but I think it is more of a systematic issue that I am stretching my head trying to find out. Is it just me or our passing completion rate is worse than before? The fact our players remain quite static does not help either.
(2) We need to figure out how to replace Iniesta to enable us to do (A), we can't always rely on the Don.
(3) We need to do a much better job responding to our opponents' counters, this is where we conceded most of our goals I believe.
(4) Whatever Luis Enrique's plan is, (A) or (B), he needs to able to make changes as the games goes on, especially when the winds are against us.
 
Last edited:

Cool

Senior Member
I wouldnt put the entire blame on Lucho. Do you guys see him leaving after this season, if so, who is avaliable on the market that understands the Barca way like Lucho does?
 

snowy

Well-known member
I wouldnt put the entire blame on Lucho. Do you guys see him leaving after this season, if so, who is avaliable on the market that understands the Barca way like Lucho does?

not only that, even if another manager came, there's no guarantee players would connect well with him. At least with Lucho, there's a good harmony. + if the new manager's tactics are too rigid, might not gel well with MSN who've been enjoying a lot of freedom to improvise and create on the go. It's like music, once you go to Jazz, it's kinda hard to return to solfège practice... The only thing that might work is if there's a manager out there with the genius of Bach where symmetry and rhythm merge seamlessly with elasticity and sprightliness. :geek: (memorized that for a date once...)
Football that uplifts and elevate the soul so to speak. Doubt there's a maestro out there who can do it though. A week ago or so, Ekul (his moniker sounds like yours hehe and Welcome btw :thumbsup:) said Lucho was smart to give a lot of free rein to MSN. Now that they're used to all that freedom, not sure our mustangs would enjoy a tighter hold :jack:
 
Last edited:

Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
If Luis Enrique ends up leaving (probably because he won't renew, less so because the club does not want him), I hope we will get Sampaoli. Pay the breach of contract fee to Sevilla and get him.

Simeone won't leave Atletico, plus I don't think his style suits us. Thomas Tuchel hasn’t impressed me so far at all.
 

vlad

New member
I wouldnt put the entire blame on Lucho. Do you guys see him leaving after this season, if so, who is avaliable on the market that understands the Barca way like Lucho does?

if lucho decide to leave at the end of a season, i doubt that barca will find someone with "barca DNA", but if he leaves, my pick will be marcelino, ex villareal coach



edit: i know this is not topic for "who would you like for next coach after lucho", so its okay if someone delete my comment :)
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
if lucho decide to leave at the end of a season, i doubt that barca will find someone with "barca DNA", but if he leaves, my pick will be marcelino, ex villareal coach



edit: i know this is not topic for "who would you like for next coach after lucho", so its okay if someone delete my comment :)

I quite like Jorge Sampaoli. Especially if Sevilla does really well under him this season.

I don't think Lucho will renew. Just been giving that kind of vibes.
 

Barcaman

Administrator
Staff member
Sampaoli would tick all boxes as he basically cherishes same brand of football Barca became famous for. Plus he's Argentinian and that's surely a plus for Messi. Or maybe I'm wrong about that :tata:
 

Cool

Senior Member
not only that, even if another manager came, there's no guarantee players would connect well with him. At least with Lucho, there's a good harmony. + if the new manager's tactics are too rigid, might not gel well with MSN who've been enjoying a lot of freedom to improvise and create on the go. It's like music, once you go to Jazz, it's kinda hard to return to solfège practice... The only thing that might work is if there's a manager out there with the genius of Bach where symmetry and rhythm merge seamlessly with elasticity and sprightliness. :geek: (memorized that for a date once...)
Football that uplifts and elevate the soul so to speak. Doubt there's a maestro out there who can do it though. A week ago or so, Ekul (his moniker sounds like yours hehe and Welcome btw :thumbsup:) said Lucho was smart to give a lot of free rein to MSN. Now that they're used to all that freedom, not sure our mustangs would enjoy a tighter hold :jack:

Thanks man! I've been lurking the forum for like a year now (?), I'm not just the type to post. I'd welcome Lucho for one more season because despite the bad patch of form the players are going through, I believe he'll motivate them to pass it.

To those saying Sampaoli, I think that will be a tough one as he just signed with Sevilla and I don't see him leaving them after one season if Lucho left us and Barca came sniffing for him. However, I see Athletico Bilbao coach, Valverde, as a good manager for Barcelona.
 

Home of Barca Fans

Top