Luis Enrique

[Barcaman]

Not what I said. There's a difference though between insightful criticism and blind hostility. Here, it's mostly the latter.

Screaming and posting 'Lucho out!' 'sack him'! After we pick up difficult points/results is not criticism.

You obviously haven't read posts then.

 

[FlaFCB]

[tw]828935365188841472[/tw]

 

[serghei]

We are playing more direct now. True, it is not total football, like Pep's Barcelona, but it is efficient so far under Lucho. Thing is we would all like to play the same superb football we did under Pep. But it is not possible. Losing Xavi and, shortly after, Alves, means that we have to make a certain transition. This is this transition. Some may not like it, but it had to be done. Trying to play to same way with much inferior quality is the shortest road to failure. The system only works with superb players.

 

[Barcaman]

What is efficient? There is no system here. Messi is the system.

Transition to what exactly? Abyss? Messi is 30. We arent promoting anyone and aren't getting right signings. Playing crappiest football in a decade.

And Barca system worked. True, not always to great results but it was a genuine system and something to build on. We had identity, now we have MSN which is basically Galacticos failed project.

 

[vlad]

Bojan, i wouldnt say MSN is failed "project", in two seasons, 2 la liga, 2 cdr and 1 cl trophy, its far from fail

 

[Ahmedd]

Bojan, i wouldnt say MSN is failed "project", in two seasons, 2 la liga, 2 cdr and 1 cl trophy, its far from fail

MSN is like steroids, first it gives you great results but the consequences can be desastrous after. We rely too much on them. Right now we don't see all the problems because they can still pull out great performances. Imagine Barcelona without Messi and Iniesta.

 

[Barcaman]

Bojan, i wouldnt say MSN is failed "project", in two seasons, 2 la liga, 2 cdr and 1 cl trophy, its far from fail

MSN is not the system and there is no transition to a new system. That was my point. And Galacticos proved to be a failed system. They won a CL and few domestic titles but in long term the whole project blew in their face. We are on that same road now.

 

[BBZ8800]

Yes, it did continue after Cruyff. You keep showing you really don't know much about Barça. First that stuff about Xavi, now this... Pep didn't bring in back, he built on it. Xavi and Iniesta already knew how to play that way, just as an example. Pique came back from utd and also already knew how to play, because he learned that in la masia. Barça always had a specific way of playing, after Cruyff. Even during the damned gaspart era. Rijkaard was a bit more direct, but not like this lucho team now. There was a good midfield back then as well.

Imo, people are too harsh on Serghei now.

I agree with some of his points.
Lucho is guilty, of course, but only to some extent.

Our fans are (imo) underestimating how average are some of our players.
The current midfielders and guys from 2001-2003 are two weakest set of midfielders in the last 20 years.
Busi is good, Iniesta is too old. Other guys are more or less a joke for any Barca's standard from 1995 till today.

Rafinha, Denis, Roberto, these guys are miles behind one Fabregas, who was a crap.

This is just my opinion, but if we could in a Sci-Fi way copy the current team into Pep's era and gave them to Pep in 2009, I am quite sure that Pep would say:
Wtf am I supposed to do with these midfielders?
And that he would sell 5-6 of these guys and ask for top midfielders like Verratti, Gundogan, Coutinho etc.

Since really, playing with current Rakitic, Denis, Gomes, Rafinha, Roberto and similar and expecting Barca to have a recognizable, beautiful style, it won't happen.

Lucho is bad, yes.
Lucho made 100s of mistakes, yes.
A better coach could slightly improve a current team, yes.

I mean, seriously, for example, Barca in 1998/99:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998–99_FC_Barcelona_season

We had midfielders:
Rivaldo, Figo, Guardiola, Luis Enrique, Cocu, young Xavi, Oscar and Roger Garcia (La Masia guys), Ronald De Boer (!!), Zenden, Ciric, young Luis Garcia

That's:
1. Rivaldo, the best player in the world back then, and the best midfielder (or attacking midfielder/forward)
2. Figo, the 2nd or the 3rd best player in the world, so the best winger in the world in that moment
3. Lucho, a level of let's say current Iniesta/Arda/Rakitic roughly
4. Cocu, level of prime Rakitic
5. Ronald De Boer, level of Rakitic/Arda again (Dutch NT key midfielder, won a CL with Ajax in 1995' as a key player)
6. young Xavi, better than ALL current midfielders, more or less
7. Guardiola, let's say level of prime Raki again
8. Oscar, Roger, Luis Garcia, level of Rafinha/Denis/Roberto
9. Ciric, the same

The point is that we had 5-6 world class midfielders and players like Denis/Gomes/Roberto/Rafinha were a 7th pick back then, after Rivaldo, Figo, Xavi, Lucho, Guardiola, Cocu (or even Ronald De Boer).
So, we had 6-7 players better than players of Rafinha's or Denis' level.

While today, what?
We have old Iniesta, horrible Rakitic. And Gomes/Denis are our 2nd/3rd or 4th pick midfielders.
Gomes is either a 2nd pick or 3rd pick (behind Rakitic who can't control a bouncing ball anymore).

What I am trying to say: this is truly a horribly midfield in terms of player's skills, compared with other Barca's generations.
Why?
1. we had poor La Masia luck
2. we spent money on wrong players (Arda, Gomes)
3. we have overspent in other areas (Neymar, MSN wages) and we don't have money for better midfielders

So, yes, Lucho is guilty to some extent.
But we have tons of other, deeper problems also like: very average players in midfied and on a RB, plus very questionable motivation of majority of players.

But once again, Lucho will be gone in a summer and then a lot of players will be exposed under a new coach, where we won't be able to blame a coach for everything.

 

[FlaFCB]

What I am trying to say: this is truly a horribly midfield in terms of player's skills, compared with other Barca's generations.
Why?
1. we had poor La Masia luck
2. we spent money on wrong players (Arda, Gomes)
3. we have overspent in other areas (Neymar, MSN wages) and we don't have money for better midfielders

So, yes, Lucho is guilty to some extent.
But we have tons of other, deeper problems also like: very average players in midfied and on a RB, plus very questionable motivation of majority of players.

But once again, Lucho will be gone in a summer and then a lot of players will be exposed under a new coach, where we won't be able to blame a coach for everything.

I agree with most of what you said. Except that Lucho is guilty to the full extent, not some. He signed Gomes, Denis, Arda. And he passed on Kroos. The current state of the midfield is all on him and his poor signings. And the next coach won't be able to solve all this in one summer. I hope at least arda and gomes are sold.

 

[Barcaman]

Imo, people are too harsh on Serghei now.

I agree with some of his points.
Lucho is guilty, of course, but only to some extent.

Our fans are (imo) underestimating how average are some of our players.
The current midfielders and guys from 2001-2003 are two weakest set of midfielders in the last 20 years.
Busi is good, Iniesta is too old. Other guys are more or less a joke for any Barca's standard from 1995 till today.

Rafinha, Denis, Roberto, these guys are miles behind one Fabregas, who was a crap.

This is just my opinion, but if we could in a Sci-Fi way copy the current team into Pep's era and gave them to Pep in 2009, I am quite sure that Pep would say:
Wtf am I supposed to do with these midfielders?
And that he would sell 5-6 of these guys and ask for top midfielders like Verratti, Gundogan, Coutinho etc.

Since really, playing with current Rakitic, Denis, Gomes, Rafinha, Roberto and similar and expecting Barca to have a recognizable, beautiful style, it won't happen.

Lucho is bad, yes.
Lucho made 100s of mistakes, yes.
A better coach could slightly improve a current team, yes.

I mean, seriously, for example, Barca in 1998/99:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998–99_FC_Barcelona_season

We had midfielders:
Rivaldo, Figo, Guardiola, Luis Enrique, Cocu, young Xavi, Oscar and Roger Garcia (La Masia guys), Ronald De Boer (!!), Zenden, Ciric, young Luis Garcia

That's:
1. Rivaldo, the best player in the world back then, and the best midfielder (or attacking midfielder/forward)
2. Figo, the 2nd or the 3rd best player in the world, so the best winger in the world in that moment
3. Lucho, a level of let's say current Iniesta/Arda/Rakitic roughly
4. Cocu, level of prime Rakitic
5. Ronald De Boer, level of Rakitic/Arda again (Dutch NT key midfielder, won a CL with Ajax in 1995' as a key player)
6. young Xavi, better than ALL current midfielders, more or less
7. Guardiola, let's say level of prime Raki again
8. Oscar, Roger, Luis Garcia, level of Rafinha/Denis/Roberto
9. Ciric, the same

The point is that we had 5-6 world class midfielders and players like Denis/Gomes/Roberto/Rafinha were a 7th pick back then, after Rivaldo, Figo, Xavi, Lucho, Guardiola, Cocu (or even Ronald De Boer).
So, we had 6-7 players better than players of Rafinha's or Denis' level.

While today, what?
We have old Iniesta, horrible Rakitic. And Gomes/Denis are our 2nd/3rd or 4th pick midfielders.
Gomes is either a 2nd pick or 3rd pick (behind Rakitic who can't control a bouncing ball anymore).

What I am trying to say: this is truly a horribly midfield in terms of player's skills, compared with other Barca's generations.
Why?
1. we had poor La Masia luck
2. we spent money on wrong players (Arda, Gomes)
3. we have overspent in other areas (Neymar, MSN wages) and we don't have money for better midfielders

So, yes, Lucho is guilty to some extent.
But we have tons of other, deeper problems also like: very average players in midfied and on a RB, plus very questionable motivation of majority of players.

But once again, Lucho will be gone in a summer and then a lot of players will be exposed under a new coach, where we won't be able to blame a coach for everything.

Rivaldo and Figo weren't midfielders. Roger and Oscar either they played wide forwards. Ciric probably too but he almost never played.

Ronald de Boer in Barca was crap and he barely played at all.

Midfielders were Guardiola, Xavi, Cocu, and Celades (who you left out). Lucho often played a forward. Guardiola wasn't that hot by then and Xavi was just a kid so it's not like we had all world class players. Van Gaal played Barca system though and it worked.

What we have now in Busquets, Iniesta, Rakitic, Denis, Gomes, Roberto.. is really not that far off that midfield.

Also, check out Sampaoli's Sevilla and tell me what world class players he has at his disposal.

 

[Neymessi]

I agree with most of what you said. Except that Lucho is guilty to the full extent, not some. He signed Gomes, Denis, Arda. And he passed on Kroos. The current state of the midfield is all on him and his poor signings. And the next coach won't be able to solve all this in one summer. I hope at least arda and gomes are sold.

Were there better options than the signings we made? Back then everyone was giving a thumbs up to our signings. They turned out average but he did the best he could. Apart from that he deserves every blame he is getting right now.

 

[BBZ8800]

Rivaldo and Figo weren't midfielders. Roger and Oscar either they played wide forwards. Ciric probably too but he almost never played.

Ronald de Boer in Barca was crap and he barely played at all.

Midfielders were Guardiola, Xavi, Cocu, and Celades (who you left out). Lucho often played a forward. Guardiola wasn't that hot by then and Xavi was just a kid so it's not like we had all world class players. Van Gaal played Barca system though and it worked.

What we have now in Busquets, Iniesta, Rakitic, Denis, Gomes, Roberto.. is really not that far off that midfield.

Also, check out Sampaoli's Sevilla and tell me what world class players he has at his disposal.

Ok, we played different formations also beck then.
But still, Roberto, Rafinha, Denis is the same player again and again.
A guy who is not good enough for Barca's level and who can be a good squad player.
Arda, Gomes and Rakitic are guys who could have been good.
But Arda didn't make it, Gomes is not our fit, Raki was good for 1,5 year.

So, what do we have now: 2 players of Barca's level: granny Iniesta and Ok Busi.
3 players who aren't good/our fit anymore: Arda, Gomes, Raki
Players who will never be a starter material: Roberto, Raf, Denis

Imo, if Roberto, Rafinha, Denis will ever leave Barca, they will be a midtable team players somewhere else, they will never be world class players.
Now again, compare them with Celadas, played for Barca and Real, Ronny De Boer (key man at CL winner Ajax and NT team Netherlands), Cocu, Lucho, Guardiola, young Xavi from that generation.

Furter, just look at our midfielders from other eras (or from more recent eras):
Deco, a key NT player for Portugal who was playing EC finals
Xavi and Iniesta, no need to explain anything
Fab, also to some extent
Van Bommel, a key player in Netherlands, also playing a WC final
Edmilson, won a WC with Brasil in 2002

Just some examples.
So, majority of our midfielders were key players of their NT teams, and their NT teams were winning WCs and Euros, or reaching finals.
What we have today?
Denis, Spanish key NT player?
Rafinha? 2 caps for the weakest Brasil team since 80s
Roberto, 25 years, 3 caps for Spain
Gomes, ok, he played to some extent for Portugal, but lost his starter place.
Raki and Arda, key players for average NT teams like Turkey and Croatia.

So, you see, my point is that when you look at our midfielders through history, we went from key NT players from World cup winners like Brasil, Netherlands and Portugal to players like Denis, Rafinha, Roberto, Gomes or semi-decent Arda/Raki who are again miles behind the level of our players in 90s or in last 10 years.
The current guys are either NOT NT players at all (Rafinha, Denis, Roberto) or are key players from average NT teams (Raki, Arda).

No offense to any of our players and fans, but the difference between our midfielders from the past and the current ones are the same as: MSN vs Pedro for example.
In the past, we always had domestic or foreign MSN midfielders (the best of the best in the world), while today we have just a bunch of Pedros.
(I love Pedro btw, but Pedro isn't on the level of prime MSN, for example).

** About Sevilla, let's see what will they win at the end of a season.
They will be good in La liga, poor in a CL.

In La liga, with lots of weaker teams, it is possible for teams like Sevilla from time to time to earn huge amount of points.
Especially with a right coach, and players whoa re motivated and can run a lot, unlike a lot of guys from our team.

I agree with most of what you said. Except that Lucho is guilty to the full extent, not some. He signed Gomes, Denis, Arda. And he passed on Kroos. The current state of the midfield is all on him and his poor signings. And the next coach won't be able to solve all this in one summer. I hope at least arda and gomes are sold.

Ok, from that perspective: if Lucho was buying these guys, then ok.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

Another game, another humiliation.

 

[FlaFCB]

Another game, another humiliation.

Results are all that matter

 

[RevoTeller]

Mastermind at work.