Luis Suárez

[BBZ8800]

How does Griezzman always score against Madrid? Pretty much gave us a push every season to settle the title all by himself. Pull up the videos with statistics of how he didn't create a chance of his own, it took him many chances to score, how he couldn't get into space for a through ball, and how his positioning was bad?

1. Real obviously suits him, he is always awesome against them
2. regarding the other part, the world is not black and white.
If I said that he isn't a world class finisher (which he isn't), it doesn't mean that he is shit.
He is still an awesome player and a very good finisher.
But again, at Barca, we should aim for the best at attacking positions.
For example, Malcom is an average player for Barca's level.
But he will still score bangers and have awesome matches. But longterm, he is not a guy who can be our starter if we want to win La Ligas and CLs.

So, about Griezmann, he can surely come into some goalscoring chances, he will dribble sometimes and score sometimes.
But that is nowhere near enough a level of Barca's NO9.

Now, look at a video of his La Liga goals in 2018/19.
He scored 15 goals, but 3 goals from penalty kicks and 2 direct free kicks.
That means that he has scored only 10 goals from an open play.
When you forget hate towards Suarez and how he is ruining a build up play, his finishing skills, pace, getting into a position are quite good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PIlw8kR4cU

 

[Potroh]

Basically, he relies on his teammates to set him opportunities, and once when he gets into those chances, his finishing rate is quite average for the highest level.

His finish is okay, the problem is not there.
He has always played with "real" CFs, where either the CF scored or he could, coming from behind.

Suarez is not a CF anymore in the sense of creation and combination-play. Four balls out of five will be lost on him.
Thus Griez can only combine with the in form Messi, but if he plays on the left, there are little chances for that as they are far from each other. I think EV wanted Griez to come from the left and Alba taking his place there, but the injuries prevented that so far.

Right now Griez plays the exact Coutinho role on the left, with several problems.
- He is slow, has a good shot but left footed, not a dribbler, his only advantages are: good in tracking back, that can be used and good with his head that cannot be used in that position.
- If Coutinho is/was a much better dribbler, could try his right-foot shot sometimes, it becomes clear that Griez can't be even as good as Coutinho was on LW.

If Coutinho is considered a flop, then poor Griez will be a mega-flop if being played as a winger.

 

[clemente]

2. Griezmann is a bad finisher and also inconsistent

He is still an awesome player and a very good finisher.

At least stay consistent

When you forget hate towards Suarez and how he is ruining a build up play, his finishing skills, pace, getting into a position are quite good:

My hate towards Suarez comes from that he is person that is getting paid 300k a week for being an athlete, he is literally working out every day for living and is still somehow a fat fuck, not even gonna talk about how embarrassing it is to watch him play when someone passes the ball to him. Sure he can get into good positions, but this is where you miss the whole point about Griezzman, pulling up statistics of Suarez is the same as people saying Valverde is winning games, did Griezzman have Messi feeding him inch perfect chances on a plate every single week?

 

[Lapi]

My hate towards Suarez comes from that he is person that is getting paid 300k a week for being an athlete

I think in colloquial English it is simply called as being envious or criticaster.

 

[Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor]

At least stay consistent



My hate towards Suarez comes from that he is person that is getting paid 300k a week for being an athlete, he is literally working out every day for living and is still somehow a fat fuck, not even gonna talk about how embarrassing it is to watch him play when someone passes the ball to him. Sure he can get into good positions, but this is where you miss the whole point about Griezzman, pulling up statistics of Suarez is the same as people saying Valverde is winning games, did Griezzman have Messi feeding him inch perfect chances on a plate every single week?

He is not fat , he is just big boned. He orders his mate's with skimmed milk and no sugar. Ultimate professional.

 

[BBZ8800]

but this is where you miss the whole point about Griezzman, pulling up statistics of Suarez is the same as people saying Valverde is winning games, did Griezzman have Messi feeding him inch perfect chances on a plate every single week?

Ok, Messi is an advantage.
But a few bonus questions:
1. how come that Suarez's numbers from Liverpool, Ajax and NT team are again better than anything what Griezmann has ever done?
2. further, if Messi is such an advantage, how come that OTHER Barca's attackers who played alongside Messi since 2006/07 never had even close numbers to Suarez's?
Let's check all seasons and all La Liga goals by every single Messi's teammate in attack from 2006/07 till today:
40 Suarez 2016'
30 Etoo 2009'
29 Suarez 2017'
25 Suarez 2018'
24 Neymar 2016'
22 Neymar 2015'
21 Suarez 2019'
19 Henry 2009'
19 Alexis 2014'
18 Villa 2011'
16 Suarez 2015'
16 Zlatan 2010'
16 Etoo 2008'
15 Pedro 2014'
13 Neymar 2017'
13 Pedro 2011'
12 Pedro 2010'
12 Alexis 2012'
10 Villa 2013'
9 Neymar 2014'

So, Messi played with Ronaldinho, Etoo, Gudjohnsen, Henry, Ibrahimovic, Pedro, Villa, Alexis, Paco, Munir, Dembele, Malcom...
Yet, in top4 goalscoring seasons by Messi's teammates, Suarez holds positions: 1st, 3rd and 4th.

How come?
Messi was feeding everyone with assists, yet only 2 players managed to break a milestone of 25 league goals per season: Suarez 3 times and Etoo once.

One more question, is you think that Messi is a reason why Suarez is scoring.
Again:
1. what about his days at Ajax and Liverpool?
2. and how come that Argentinian FCs can't score anything for years even though Messi is feeding them with assists?

Maybe the answer is: Suarez isn't the worst player in the world and not everyone will be better with him.
Griezmann surely won't.

I'll use your logic.
Care to explain how this shitty player managed to do this WITHOUT Messi feeding him?

 

[Judoman]

His finish is okay, the problem is not there.
He has always played with "real" CFs, where either the CF scored or he could, coming from behind.

Suarez is not a CF anymore in the sense of creation and combination-play. Four balls out of five will be lost on him.
Thus Griez can only combine with the in form Messi, but if he plays on the left, there are little chances for that as they are far from each other. I think EV wanted Griez to come from the left and Alba taking his place there, but the injuries prevented that so far.

Right now Griez plays the exact Coutinho role on the left, with several problems.
- He is slow, has a good shot but left footed, not a dribbler, his only advantages are: good in tracking back, that can be used and good with his head that cannot be used in that position.
- If Coutinho is/was a much better dribbler, could try his right-foot shot sometimes, it becomes clear that Griez can't be even as good as Coutinho was on LW.

If Coutinho is considered a flop, then poor Griez will be a mega-flop if being played as a winger.

Do you think 4-2-3-1 would work? Messi in the center, with Suarez in a poacher role. It puts Griez closer to Messi for combination play and Dembele/Fati on the right as a fast winger role. Or maybe Griez in the center with Messi on the right.
In defense this would mean 4-4-2, which is basically what we play now, with Messi and Suarez taking a pause when we are defending. Also, Busi is out in this formation.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Messi has become more of a playmaker later in his career. At least that's how I feel like. Explains Suarez high goal totals.

 

[BBZ8800]

Messi has become more of a playmaker later in his career. At least that's how I feel like. Explains Suarez high goal totals.

The other option is, an unpopular opinion on this forum=that Suarez is our best attacker bar Messi in the last 10 years and way more clinical than all other guys whom we had.

Regarding your comment about Messi being a playmaker, it still doesn't explain:
1. 30+ goals from Suarez at Ajax and Liverpool, without Messi
2. Suarez's numbers in NT matches, without Messi
3. and why are Higuain and Aguero quite shit in the Argentinian NT, even though they have Messi serving them

So, by far the simplest and the most logical answer is: Suarez is the best finisher. Even though he sucks in other areas of play.

 

[Leo_98cro]

I think that are best lineup, atleast for home games is

MATS

Semedo-Pique-Lenglet-Alba

DeJong-Arthur

Messi-Griezmann-Dembele

Suarez

Full attacking 4231, we are Barca, lets attack and then more attack, especially at home...

Away, u can take one attacker ( Griez,Demb,Suarez ) and putt Vidal in 433

 

[Potroh]

Do you think 4-2-3-1 would work? Messi in the center, with Suarez in a poacher role. It puts Griez closer to Messi for combination play and Dembele/Fati on the right as a fast winger role. Or maybe Griez in the center with Messi on the right.
In defense this would mean 4-4-2, which is basically what we play now, with Messi and Suarez taking a pause when we are defending. Also, Busi is out in this formation.

Anything is better than the present RIGID pseudo 4-3-3 or 4-4-2.
But any other - initial - formation needs much more movement and running from almost everyone and the big question is: can they do that?

Just look at the present trends: more and more good teams start playing with 3 defenders, or others defend with 9 and attack with 9. But that needs condition, fresh legs, running 11-12 km, etc.
Can you go to that direction with Barca?
Creating clear chances with 3 touches instead of 333?
Does Barca have a CB who would be fast and agile enough to reach and stop a speedy attacker?
Does Barca want to - somehow - win the CL this year, or do they see a future team also with the present 32-33 yrs old stars?
Does EV work towards his younger players to have at least SOME confidence, or he goes down the path to constantly PUNISH them after a worse show?
Busquets, Rakitic and even Vidal should be out of the future equation now. Will that happen?

 

[Potroh]

So, by far the simplest and the most logical answer is: Suarez is the best finisher. Even though he sucks in other areas of play.

Suarez WAS the better finisher.
Don't let his rare two goals misguide you.
By now he is a true legend, a legend who is capable of scoring nice and rare goals and simultaneously he stops every second attacking attempt.
He is museum-piece, who falls, gesticulates and shouts more than he handles a ball.
(if Neymar became the meme for his pain at the WC, what would the general public do if they see Suarez every weekend?)

A good coach is always looking for TRENDS in his players, so scoring two goals (after two years in CL) is definitely a nice excpection but not a trend.

 

[clemente]

I think in colloquial English it is simply called as being envious or criticaster.

Well done taking it out of context dumbass.

Ok, Messi is an advantage.
But a few bonus questions:
1. how come that Suarez's numbers from Liverpool, Ajax and NT team are again better than anything what Griezmann has ever done?
2. further, if Messi is such an advantage, how come that OTHER Barca's attackers who played alongside Messi since 2006/07 never had even close numbers to Suarez's?[/video]

1, Maybe because Suarez a decade ago was like the best striker in the world?
2. Don't even compare that barrel to Eto, and the rest are just bunch of wingers, why in the world are you putting them there, Suarez had everything on a plate for him, the rest have been just the system players.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

The other option is, an unpopular opinion on this forum=that Suarez is our best attacker bar Messi in the last 10 years and way more clinical than all other guys whom we had.

Regarding your comment about Messi being a playmaker, it still doesn't explain:
1. 30+ goals from Suarez at Ajax and Liverpool, without Messi
2. Suarez's numbers in NT matches, without Messi
3. and why are Higuain and Aguero quite shit in the Argentinian NT, even though they have Messi serving them

So, by far the simplest and the most logical answer is: Suarez is the best finisher. Even though he sucks in other areas of play.

Yes, he is elite finisher, like we saw this Wednesday. The 1-1 goal was brilliant from him. Is it enough for Barca? I don't think so, because his game is otherwise very very weak level.

We would be better team with someone who scores less goals but doesn't fuck up so many build ups, let's say someone like Firmino. He would never put up same goal totals as Suarez but we would be much better team with his pressing, passing etc. Suarez sucks in everything other than scoring goals and even last season he missed million good chances.

 

[Judoman]

Busquets, Rakitic and even Vidal should be out of the future equation now. Will that happen?

With Valverde....no. I m already thinking post Valverde era and even than, i m not sure Busi will be out or at least benched.

With current team Valverde should minimise the damage from slow legs and maximise the current abilities of the key players. This means, giving more chances to Todibo, Fati, Perez, playing Griezmann to his strenghts and
limiting minutes and/or touches of Suarez and Busi. I don t think that can happen.

The thing that bothers me the most are the received goals in the first minutes. This trend shows mental laziness.