Malcom

BBZ8800

Senior Member
u cant judge by the total mins he played...
He is a good player.

So, basically, I CAN'T judge him and say that he is not good enough because he didn't play enough to judge him properly.
On the other hand, you CAN judge him and say that he is good enough even though he didn't play enough to judge him properly.

Sounds logical.

Btw. in a team like Barca you won't get an unlimited amount of chances to play with a first team.
1. you will get some chances in copa, you have to perform right away
2. you will get some chances in a rotated team, you have to perform right away
3. you will get some chances with the best 11, you have to perform right away 11

As said before, he had 1-2 good cameos and majority of bad appearances.
He had 22 appearances already btw.

Also, imagine giving 10 chances to every youngster with the best 11.
So:
1. Malcom gets 10+ chances with the best 11
2. Arthur gets 10+ chances with the best 11
3. Alena gets 10+ chances with the best 11
4. Puig gets 10+ chances with the best 11
5. Wague gets 10+ chances with the best 11

A few problems will occur:
1. our starting 11 will get tired because they need to play all the time, so that you can test youngsters.
That means that you can't rest 3-4 starters and play a youngster, because people will then reply: but a poor youngster had to play in a mixed lineup, it is not fair...
So, you are basically draining the energy of starters to test youngsters.
2. on the other hand, if you would do that, you wouldn't have enough of matches in a season at all.
Only for these players in the next season, we would need 50+ matches played with the starting 11
3. that again means that you: can't rotate players, you need to play with the best 11 in a CL group matches, you have to play with the best 11 in a CDR matches, you have to play with the best 11 at Camp Nou against weaker La Liga teams.
All of that only so that you can test mighty Malcoms and Puigs.
Let's ruin the whole season to test questionable youngsters.
Again, sounds logical...
 
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Calidad

Member
That’s how you try to develop players BBZ - you know actually try to integrate them into the first team and make them feel valued as opposed to spare parts in dead rubbers.

To be honest even when he performed well he got benched anyway.

Because Valverde doesn’t reward performances. He rewards names.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
That’s how you try to develop players BBZ - you know actually try to integrate them into the first team and make them feel valued as opposed to spare parts in dead rubbers.

To be honest even when he performed well he got benched anyway.

Because Valverde doesn’t reward performances. He rewards names.

I know how players are developed.
The problem is that majority of fans are emotional, too emotionally attached to young players, overrating their abilities and unwilling to cut the loses.

As I have wrote a lot of times, if you ask an average Barca fan here, this is how they will rate our youngsters:
Dembele=a generational talent. If he doesn't play or perform, it is on a coach. There is no way that Dembele actually has a lot of irreparable flaws
Arthur=one of the best young midfielders in the world. He needs to play all the time. He is way better than Raki, Vidal, Busi.
Malcom=a very good squad player (even though nobody here can name one single virtue in which he excells at. But he is good, people will say)
Semedo=world class
Alena=awesome, our future. He needs to be given 1000s of chances.
Puig=the biggest talent. Xavi said that he would play as a starter. EV is dumb, Xavi knows the best. This kid needs to play a lot.
Oriol=the next Busi. No questions about that.
Wague=a future RB, no questions about that.

Now, not all of these players are bad.
But also, there is no way that all of them are as good as people think.
And then, people would give 10s of chances to every single of those kids. That is a problem.
You aren't realistic and you don't know to assess risks and whether it is worthy to play a player (and how much to play him).
In the eyes on an average fan, every single player out of these above is a sure thing, an insane talent, and all of them deserve ton of playing time=with the starting 11.
Which itself is physically impossible, since: if you are giving chances to Alena to play with a starting 11, then you can't pair him with Puig, since then Alena won't play with a starting 11.
If you play Alena, then Puig needs to be on the bench.
If you play Puig, then Alena needs to be on the bench.
If you play Alena, then Puig and Malcom need to be on the bench.
If you play Malcom, then Alena and Puig need to be on the bench.
If you play Puig, then Alena and Malcom need to be on the bench.
If you play Oriol, then Alena, Puig and Malcom need to be on the bench.
If you play 2 of then, then Messi will be rested. And then people will whine that we didn't play the best team with kids. So, the coach must be stupid.

In short:
You can't play kids in CL knockout matches=since those matches are not for experiments.
Then, you can't play kids against Real, Atletico, Sevilla=since those matches are not for experiments.
Then, you can't play kids on an away match against Sociedad, Bilbao or Valencia=if we will lose, which is the most likely, people will say=a stupid coach. He threw those kids into a tough away game. What an idiot. Now he killed their confidence, sack the clown.

So, basically, which matches are left to play kids?
= CDR matches
= home Camp Nou matches against weaker teams
= the last round of a CL group stage

So, you don't have 100s of matches to play kids, but more like 10-15 matches over a season.
And there is another problem: since Messi, Busi, Raki, Suarez, Alba are old, they need rest and they can't play 60 matches per season.
And now:
1. you won't rest Messi and Busi in a CL KO matches
2. you also won't rest Messi and Busi against RM, Atletico, Sevilla
3. you won't rest Messi in the first matches of a group stage of a CL since we need to win the 1st place
4. you won't rest Messi in away matches of La Liga, since we need points

That means that the only place to rest 3-4-5 starters in the same time is: CDR matches and Camp Nou matches against weaker teams.
And that means again: that kids usually won't get more than 2-3 chances to play with a starting 11.
And they will usually get chances in CDR matches and Camp Nou matches with 3-4-5 squad players.

This is exactly what happened with Malcom.
And then, when he (imo) wasn't good in those matches, you will reply: he didn't get a chance with a starting 11.
Lol.
Now go back to a part of my post where I say:
If you play Alena, then Puig needs to be on the bench.
If you play Puig, then Alena needs to be on the bench.
If you play Alena, then Puig and Malcom need to be on the bench.
If you play Malcom, then Alena and Puig need to be on the bench.
If you play Puig, then Alena and Malcom need to be on the bench.
If you play Oriol, then Alena, Puig and Malcom need to be on the bench.
If you play 2 of then, then Messi will be rested. And then people will whine that we didn't play the best team with kids. So, the coach must be stupid.

So, is there a way in mathematical way to make your wishes come true?
1. to give a lot of chances to 5 different youngsters?
2. to play every single of them as much as possible with a starting 11?
3. and to rest starting 11 for key matches in the same time?

I'll help you=that is physically impossible.
This is why Malcom, Puig and others need to shine on training grounds, in friendly matches, preseason matches and in those rare 1st team matches when they get a chance.

** I didn't even mention a thing when you need to cut the loses if a player is meh and a staff figures out that the risk for him making it is too low too even bother.
That option doesn't exist in the eyes of fans.
They have faith in every single kid for 3-4 years, until it is proven too many times that he is a very, very bad, like Halilovic, Bartra or Sampe.
 
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Calidad

Member
A coach’s job is not just to pick the best XI every game, but also develop the players at his disposal and bring through players from the academy, whilst ultimately getting results and playing a good brand of football - certainly at a club like Barcelona.

Results aside, I’m not sure Valverde is succeeding any of these areas.

Virtually no squad in the world football has a ready made set of squad players who require no coaching nor development. Man City is as close as it gets, but then even Guardiola has substantially evolved the games of the likes of Sterling and KDB.

Who has evolved under Valverde? Who is he developing? Who is improving under him?

Would Robertson or Trent Alexander Arnold receive opportunities under him like they have under Klopp? Would Mane?

All of the world’s coaches would love to work with a talent like Dembele. Is he the finished product? No. But his skillset is virtually unparalleled in his position. A coach should want to develop his rawness not bemoan that he’s inconsistent at age 21. Messi aside, I can’t think of a single winger who hasn’t been/or isn’t inconsistent over certain periods particularly at such a young age.

Not every talent is going to make it, but if Valverde continues to show indifference, or at worst, ineptitude when it comes to integrating and developing the squad players he has at his disposal, we won’t see any of them make it. We can’t afford to keep chucking £100 million at every player in the squad. Valverde might actually need to coach some of those already here, God forbid.
 
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Potroh

New member
All of the world’s coaches would love to work with a talent like Dembele. Is he the finished product? No. But his skillset is virtually unparalleled in his position. A coach should want to develop his rawness not bemoan that he’s inconsistent at age 21.

Indeed.
But Valverde seems to have a "bad" or at least controversial relationship with every player who are outside of his dream-team.
He seems to be taking the role of the sternest schoolmaster with the younger players and the sugar-daddy with the oldest ones.

This is an inference seen and felt by all players, and it is the exact scenario where development is hardly possible.
- Semedo has lost all his confidence under EV
- Lenglet became the regular option only because of Umtiti's injury
- Cucurella was lucky to escape, same with Marlon
- Vidal also had his initial fight with EV never playing him
- Arthur is much more talented to play the role EV provides him
- Dembele was handled the possible worst manner related to his talents
- Malcom doesn't understand why he was bought as a 3rd option

One can also add the role of Coutinho to the entire scenery and it becomes obvious that EV handles every player wrong - apart from his elderly favorites.

Yes, he does a bad job with younger talents, but the excuse is the two La Liga triumphs. We should never forget though that this year the team performed the worst in the last few years and the Liga was NOT actually won but rather lost by the competing teams playing awfully.
Less points, less goals and even the Liga would have been easily lost if Messi and Ter Stegen weren't there...
 

Andresito

Senior Member
Staff member
A player with big flaws can still contribute. Take a look at Sterling who somehow upped his game 3 levels at City.

25 goals, 18 assists in 51 games for a winger with not the best of IQ. When he came to City all he could do was run fast and dribble.
 

Messi983

Senior Member
But Valverde seems to have a "bad" or at least controversial relationship with every player who are outside of his dream-team..

Mourinho has controversial relationship with his players when he throws them under a bus publicly. Or if a player would complain publicly about his role for a whole season. It's understandable players who don't play much are unhappy at that moment but we haven't seen much complains. So I think Valverde is handling dressing room good.


- Semedo has lost all his confidence under EV

I found it funny when people here are considering Semedo as a "young player" at 25 (will turn 26 in November) and believe Valverde is ruining his confidence because he was parting his minutes with Roberto (let's face it, none of them is good enough to be unquestionable starter so both of them sharing minutes makes sense) but they were saying Gomes is mentally weak (he's just a few months older than Semedo). And Semedo was actually getting a lot more regular playing time in his second season than Gomes.

Gomes 2016/17 (under Lucho): 17 starts, 1.592 in La Liga
Gomes 2017/18: 6 starts, 628 minutes

Semedo 2017/18: 17 starts, 1.496 minutes in La Liga
Semedo 2018/19: 20 starts, 1.596 minutes in La Liga

I know they play different positions so they can't be compared but just to see how different people treat players they like/dislike.

I actually like Semedo but don't think he's done enough to deserve a status he has among most fans here. And this is up to his own limitations, mostly in offense where he showed almost nothing in two years.


- Lenglet became the regular option only because of Umtiti's injury

Of course, he was bought as a backup and not many players would take a starting spot away from a pre-injury, in-form Umtiti. Don't know how this can have any negative influence on EV.

- Cucurella was lucky to escape, same with Marlon

Cucurella went on loan because the club thought Miranda was more prepared and they have higher expectations on him for the future. They were wrong and he's not ready yet (and might never be good enough) but Cucu "lost" his spot on the team to another La Masia graduate.

Marlon, seriously? He's not good enough to play for us. The club decided to cash on him (and they did well) so again don't know how you can fault EV here.

- Vidal also had his initial fight with EV never playing him

Vidal was better coming off the bench for a big part of the season. He had troubles to adapt initially and was unhappy with his minutes but instead of complaining he worked his ass off to convince EV to give him more playing time and after Arthur's injury problems finished the season as a starter.

- Arthur is much more talented to play the role EV provides him

He could be but haven't proven that yet. His form has dropped a lot after injury in February. And he has obvious stamina problems as even in the games he was playing well at the start he was starting to slow down after 60 minutes.

- Dembele was handled the possible worst manner related to his talents

How so? He was decisive when fully fit and in form at the start of the season. It's not Valverde's fault he's injury prone and then rusty for 3-4 months before getting injured again. You can complain all you want next season and I'll agree with you if Dembele will be healthy and play like he did early last season (I hope so but it's unlikely) and Valverde will "bench" him but until then I don't think he has mishandled him.

- Malcom doesn't understand why he was bought as a 3rd option

That's a question for Abidal why he has bought another RW instead of a LW or even better a striker to relieve Suarez. But it's easy to see why he was a 3rd option. We have Messi (he's our RW on paper) and Dembele on right wing and our two most expensive transfers on the left (where Malcom is not even that good) ahead of Malcom.

Yes, he does a bad job with younger talents, but the excuse is the two La Liga triumphs. We should never forget though that this year the team performed the worst in the last few years and the Liga was NOT actually won but rather lost by the competing teams playing awfully.

And no mentioning of his first season when everyone had low expectations after the whole Neymar saga and Supercopa fiasco and we won the league by December and almost went unbeaten?


Less points, less goals and even the Liga would have been easily lost if Messi and Ter Stegen weren't there..

Lol. Most if not all coaches wouldn't win anything without Messi because the team is build around him. And yet, we've played some good games when Messi was injured and other players stepped up.

And MATS wasn't nearly as decisive this year as he was last season.
 

messi2140

6racies Xavi
Let me just counter these 3 points.

Vidal was better coming off the bench for a big part of the season. He had troubles to adapt initially and was unhappy with his minutes but instead of complaining he worked his ass off to convince EV to give him more playing time and after Arthur's injury problems finished the season as a starter.

Vidal is better off coming off the bench ,but goat players like Rakitic and Busquets are destined to start every game. The player that is "better coming off the bench" has been twice the player compared to Rakitic and Busquets that just have to start every game under Valverde

He could be but haven't proven that yet. His form has dropped a lot after injury in February. And he has obvious stamina problems as even in the games he was playing well at the start he was starting to slow down after 60 minutes.

Which is why he played a full 90 minutes under Tite against Venezuela and was easily the best player on the pitch. If Valverde that you have been cheerleading didnt play Rakitic and Busquets who barely provide any fucking movement then maybe Arthur would easily play the full 90 minutes.


How so? He was decisive when fully fit and in form at the start of the season. It's not Valverde's fault he's injury prone and then rusty for 3-4 months before getting injured again. You can complain all you want next season and I'll agree with you if Dembele will be healthy and play like he did early last season (I hope so but it's unlikely) and Valverde will "bench" him but until then I don't think he has mishandled him.

Can we blame Valverde for playing Dembele against Lyon when he wasnt full fit and causing his season to go to shit ?


Holy fucking shit man , do you have any shred of shame left ? You have been cheerleading Valverde for 2 fucking years and after 2 horrible bottle jobs , disgusting player management , lack of system and boring football , you just come back after hiding like a weasel and continue you cheerleading like nothing happened.
 
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BBZ8800

Senior Member
Which is why he played a full 90 minutes under Tite against Venezuela and was easily the best player on the pitch.

If I'll reply that on my eye test Arthur wasn't that good, you'll reply that I don't understand football.

If I'll try to look what neutrals and stats say, you'll say that stats are crap and neutrals are idiots.

So, basically, the only relevant rating of Arthur is of Barcaforum fans who are insanely biased towards him.
Or:
1. Towards any Barca DNA player
2. Or towards any YOUNG + Barca DNA player
3. Or towards any YOUNG + La Masia + Barca DNA player

Anyway...
You said that he was EASILY the best player.
Whoscored ratings:
1. Alves 7,7
2. Silva 7,4
3. Luis 7,3
4. Arthur 6,9
5-7. Coutinho, Casemiro, Fernandinho 6,8

Sofascore:
1. Alves 7,7
2. Silva 7,5
3. Luis 7,5
4-5. Arthur, Fernandinho 7,3
6. Everton 7,2

My point:
If you like a player, you will always overrate his performance by 30-50%:
1. If he was really the best, you will say that he was BY MILES the best on a field
2. If he was the 4th or 5th the best, you will say that he was actually a no1, the best player in a team
3. If a player was among the worst in a team, you will say that he was ok or as average as all other teammates

Insert Arthur, Dembele, Semedo, it applies for all of these forum's favorites.
 
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Potroh

New member
If I'll reply that on my eye test Arthur wasn't that good, you'll reply that I don't understand football.

I've been trying to refrain from answering your brain-farts, but it hard...

Yes my friend: you don't understand football.

You have no idea about what real talents mean on the pitch, and you are just as biased and emotional as anyone else here and elsewhere - you just envelop your opinion differently.

If I'll try to look what neutrals and stats say, you'll say that stats are crap and neutrals are idiots.

Do you really think that your "neutrals" are superhuman computers who, just like you do, are counting back and forward passes - without the actual CONTEXT of passes in the given game???
Did you see the Brazil game yesterday when Arthur only had ONE single BACK-PASS in the entire game?

Insert Arthur, Dembele, Semedo, it applies for all of these forum's favorites.

In translation: "insert players whom YOU dislike..."

Just asking: Are you aware that just after quoting Whoscored and Sofascore DATA (numbers, data) you are actually, absurdly and directly CONTRADICTING your statistically based opinion????
 

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Bbz, Serghei wrote a dissertation trying to make you understand how stats do not necessarily indicate quality, and here you are still saying the same things over and over again.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Bbz, Serghei wrote a dissertation trying to make you understand how stats do not necessarily indicate quality, and here you are still saying the same things over and over again.

For the xxth time: Serghei was a Captain Obvious for posting a match in which Arthur excells since the opponents are running at him and his main duty is to get the ball out of our own half.

I asked a few times: Serghei, can you do the same for 2nd half against Espanyol and Sociedad at home, when they parked the bus, and we had 10 players in their half, so there was no need for Arthur's press resistance and getting the ball out of our own half.

When we are playing against a parked bus, what is Arthur bringing into our game, which can't be achieved by any random midfielder like Raki, Vidal, Alena, Coutinho, Rafinha or Puig?
Absolutely nothing.

I got zero replies to that question.
And I am just getting automatic AI spam replies like: you have to watch matches.

Lol, I am watching matches and I have raised serious questions about Arthur against weaker opponents and parked buses.

Since, majority of our La liga opponents are weaker teams and parked buses.
 

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