Mateo Kovačić

[DonAndres]

Facts these days = My opinion and whatever floats my boat and my definition of it

"Facts"

I'm just saying that Pogba being hailed so highly by the media and all shouldn't factor in to how good he actually is as a player. Why should we be that subjective when that sort of thinking has gotten the likes of Gotze and Touré into last year's Ballon D'or nominations and Balotelli in years past (who was also insanely hyped by the media).

The things I analyze (player performances) also have some degree of subjectivity so you can feel free to dispute it. Watch performance videos of Pogba vs. Barca compared to Verratti vs. Barca or anything I've commented on above and then see if you disagree with my assessment (to me, it's pretty clear and memorable but you have the right to argue otherwise). The difference is that I'm actually trying to discuss something that can be looked at and argued about, not just saying "Pogba is rated the highest" which is a closed statement and can't really be proven wrong or right.

 

[DonAK]

I'm just saying that Pogba being hailed so highly by the media and all shouldn't factor in to how good he actually is as a player. Why should we be that subjective when that sort of thinking has gotten the likes of Gotze and Touré into last year's Ballon D'or nominations and Balotelli in years past (who was also insanely hyped by the media).

The things I analyze (player performances) also have some degree of subjectivity so you can feel free to dispute it. Watch performance videos of Pogba vs. Barca compared to Verratti vs. Barca or anything I've commented on above and then see if you disagree with my assessment (to me, it's pretty clear and memorable but you have the right to argue otherwise). The difference is that I'm actually trying to discuss something that can be looked at and argued about, not just saying "Pogba is rated the highest" which is a closed statement and can't really be proven wrong or right.

Don, I think you're right in making a case for those players just as someone else will make a case for this player. And in some aspects, you're right and Verratti for example have performed better than Pogba against us and had a bigger impact(even though he's played more games too).

The only thing I'm against is how 'facts' is thrown around everywhere these days. There's no facts about who's rated better, who's actually better, who has a bigger impact, who'll do better for Barca(Barca style lol) etc. IMO unless you talk about individual performances in a game or two.

 

[Ini8]

Facts these days = My opinion and whatever floats my boat and my definition of it

"Facts"

Fachts

 

[Stric]

I don't think anyone is saying Pogba is bad, just that he's been made out to be more than he is.

 

[DonAndres]

Don, I think you're right in making a case for those players just as someone else will make a case for this player. And in some aspects, you're right and Verratti for example have performed better than Pogba against us and had a bigger impact(even though he's played more games too).

The only thing I'm against is how 'facts' is thrown around everywhere these days. There's no facts IMO.

The issue is word choice then. My meaning was to discern a sample of evidence that can be analyzed and trusted (performances, where you can see videos/statistics that back up an idea) as opposed to the word of teammates or media. I'm against accepting things like that as gospel. It'd have us believe that Rafinha>Thiago, that Balotelli was ever a world beater, and that Götze is the German Messi.

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] I respect that but the point of this exercise was to show that it's nowhere near easy to definitively say that Pogba is the best young midfielder in the world.

 

[Co0ter]

Facts? Good. Pogba at 22 is one of France's most important players at NT level, three time Champion of Italy with Juve, Champions League finalst in 14-15, FIFA U20 World Cup winner with France (as captain) and player of the tournament, part of Serie A team of the year 2013-14. I'd say it's pretty impressive, at only 22.

If I could choose any player from the ones you listed for our LCM spot, I'd choose Pogba (cost aside).

A lot of that has to do with Serie A...and Serie A sucks. It is also even less impressive because he plays for the best team in the league who are head and shoulders above every other team in the league.

 

[DonAK]

A lot of that has to do with Serie A...and Serie A sucks. It is also even less impressive because he plays for the best team in the league who are head and shoulders above every other team in the league.

If Serie A sucks so much then why did you vouch for Kovacic?

 

[serghei]

the point of this exercise was to show that it's nowhere near easy to definitively say that Pogba is the best young midfielder in the world.

Of course not. That's why, if somebody says Verratti is the best young CM in the world, I have no problem with that.

A lot of that has to do with Serie A...and Serie A sucks. It is also even less impressive because he plays for the best team in the league who are head and shoulders above every other team in the league.

He's one of the reason why they are above the other teams in the league. He's a contributor, not a beneficiary.

 

[Co0ter]

If Serie A sucks so much then why did you vouch for Kovacic?

He was supporting Pogba with the use of titles and success, which was with Juve (and some international youth team). Pogba plays well with a very good team against teams who are incredibly weaker than them. Kovacic plays very well for a team who is currently in a terrible state and whose teammates are mostly rubbish. I thought the distinction would be clear, my apologies.

We aren't even taking into consideration what kind of signing Pogba would be. He has mostly shined through some galloping runs into space and long range screamers. He also relies a lot on his physique to protect the ball. Is he a Barca type player? Would he fit into our midfield?! He is a gamble, plain and simple. A gamble that would cost three times the amount of Kovacic, mostly due to the hype which was brought on by those screamers he scored.

While Kovacic fits our team perfectly, he's tailored for Iniesta's current role in the team. That is why I vouch for him; I see him as a realistic role in our team...not as some guy who many support because "oh look, fancy footwork and he shoots laserbeams!". I honestly can't understand how people can still even mention him after his price tag AND wages he's demanding...hilarious.

 

[Co0ter]

Fair enough. He does have an impressive career so far. I'd still disagree that he's shown more than any of the 4 players performance-wise.

-Verratti was the best player in Ligue 1 last year and had absolute masterclass performances against Chelsea in both legs and vs. Barcelona in the quarters. His talent and abilities are there for all to see and he shines both domestically and in the hardest games of the CL.
-Koke is regularly one of the highest assisters in La Liga and has been a big game player for Atletico against Barca, RM, and Chelsea numerous times over the past few years.
-Isco has also shown his aptitude against the likes of Barca/Atleti many times and excelled in la liga and the CL. He wasn't even a starter for the CL final he played and did much better than Pogba did this year.
-James' record is probably the best out of all of them. WC Golden Boot, double digit assists/goals in his first year for RM, possibly the best performer they had this season depending on how you rate Ronaldo's goal-influence this year.

This is without counting ANY youth achievements.

All of these players are more creative than Pogba, better off the ball, and average more passes per game than Pogba. Also, they've all shown a high level of aptitude against the best teams in the world and in the CL. Pogba's CL season was actually poor on an individual level if you look at his performances (some say he actually did awesomely vs Barca , go back and compare his performance to that of Verratti/Isco/James against Barca in the same season and you'd probably laugh). His most consistent streak individually speaking was for some months in the Serie A midseason 14/15, where he did show a lot of ability and promise. Still, that's a pretty finite sample space in a league where he faces very little high pressing and where the likes of 38 year old Luca Toni can be top goalscorer.

Yes.

 

[Ini8]

@AlPrimerToque: MANCINI: "Lamentamos la venta de Kovacic, pero debemos respetar el Fair Play financiero"

Translation: "We regret that we had to sell Kovacic, but we must respect the FFP".

Confirmed by Mancini.

 

[Stric]

Damn.

 

[ThwiX]

Good. No Verratti/Pogba to RM then. That would be much worse.

 

[El Gato]

Now that's a great signing. A really, really good one. Even if we spend 35M it's acceptable - you rate transfers and fees by results, not by player's "estimated worth". Screw Verratti and Pogba who'd essentially need to be played every game if they came, thus destroying the core that was in transition since Xabi's decline and departure. A player is as promising as they come and will help to moderate the minutes of Luka and Kroos. Neither will stay fit if they get relied upon too much.

Good transfer. I'm glad it happened.

It only begs the question - what's happening in Inter? They didn't sell because of FFP, they sold because they're probably buying more and need to re-adjust in accordance to FFP. So it's interesting where they'll end up now.

Also, there are strong rumors either Nacho or Coentrao will be included in the deal too, so that will be an effective way to bring the costs down.

 

[CuleLife4Life]

Fck this is a very, very good signing for Madrid. I'm shocked. I thought they'd blow their entire budget on Pogba/Verratti. Fact is, they don't need a sure starter right now with Modric and Kroos but at 21, Kovacic can turn out to be a very replacement for Modric in a few seasons.