Midfield Next season

[DonAK]

I'd like to start with Busi - Arthur - Frenkie for the majority of the Camp Nou games in the first half of the season.

Vidal and Rakitic as first rotational options, especially Vidal. These two would be useful away from home where games are a bit more physical.

Roberto I'm skeptical about, he always had some occasional good game as a midfielder where he made you think 'maybe, just maybe he can be a midfield starter here', but overall he more or less disappoints there.

Arthur and Frenkie starters 2/3 of the season should be mandatory. The 3rd starting spot is wide open, as are the rotational options.

If we can move Arthur to CDM like he played for Gremio, and he can be effective there, we should sign a creative CM next summer, and this time a guy that can actually play in a three man midfield unlike Coutinho.

Either that or we get a mobile, physical CDM.

 

[serghei]

If we can move Arthur to CDM like he played for Gremio, and he can be effective there, we should sign a creative CM next summer, and this time a guy that can actually play in a three man midfield unlike Coutinho.

Issue is imo that all 3 midfielders need to have a good defensive output when you have older trios up front. By the looks of it, 2/3 of our forwards will be veterans. Messi and Suarez can be called flat out veterans now.

So, the one taking the hit is basically the AM spot. Arthur, Busi, Frenkie are all DM-CM all rounded types, but neither is an Iniesta who can contribute in the attacking third and create imbalance. Which is actually fine considering the lower defensive and workrate output for Messi and Suarez.

 

[DonAK]

Issue is imo that all 3 midfielders need to have a good defensive output when you have older trios up front. By the looks of it, 2/3 of our forwards will be veterans. Messi and Suarez can be called flat out veterans now.

So, the one taking the hit is basically the AM spot.

I don't think Suarez is there in 2020/21 though, given his contract ends in 2021. I can see the club trying to move on from him, even if we get a token fee. Perhaps he'll have a last hurrah with Ajax like Huntelaar right now.

So the only veteran remaining would be Messi.

Anyway, either that or a physical, mobile CDM. Ndombele could have been a good signing even though he's not really a true CDM.

 

[serghei]

I don't think Suarez is there in 2020/21 though, given his contract ends in 2021. I can see the club trying to move on from him, even if we get a token fee. Perhaps he'll have a last hurrah with Ajax like Huntelaar right now.

So the only veteran remaining would be Messi.

Anyway, either that or a physical, mobile CDM. Ndombele could have been a good signing even though he's not really a true CDM.

Yea, what hurts us is that, by the looks of it, both Dembele and Coutinho are not panning out. If at least one worked and produced what we expected when we signed them we'd be ready to potentially transition from both Messi and Suarez if needed.

Other thing that is not exactly on the money is the age of Griezmann. Would've been great if he was 25-26 or so, circa 2016. Right now, it's likely he won't be part of the future Barca project long into the future, and we will be on the market again in 2-3 years for a completely new front line.

For me Mbappe will never happen at Barcelona. Now that I think of it in perspective, Khaled was right for wanting us to sign Felix so badly.

 

[DonAK]

Yea, what hurts us is that, by the looks of it, both Dembele and Coutinho are not panning out. If at least one worked and produced what we expected when we signed them we'd be ready to potentially transition from both Messi and Suarez if needed.

Other thing that is not exactly on the money is the age of Griezmann. Would've been great if he was 25-26 or so, circa 2016. Right now, it's likely he won't be part of the future Barca project long into the future, and we will be on the market again in 2-3 years for a completely new front line.

For me Mbappe will never happen at Barcelona. Now that I think of it in perspective, Khaled was right for wanting us to sign Felix so badly.

Mbappé can happen at Barca, but we're going to need the greatest sales pitch ever for him to choose Barca ahead of Real Madrid. According to Emery at least, Mbappé's goal is to move to either Real Madrid or Barcelona so we have a shot, but we're def not the favorites.

We can still sign Felix in three years, hopefully we have a new board, a more transparent board who will not fuck up relations with every club.

 

[serghei]

Mbappé can happen at Barca, but we're going to need the greatest sales pitch ever for him to choose Barca ahead of Real Madrid. According to Emery at least, Mbappé's goal is to move to either Real Madrid or Barcelona so we have a shot, but we're def not the favorites.

We can still sign Felix in three years, hopefully we have a new board, a more transparent board who will not fuck up relations with every club.

Yea, and there are other players who can be got as well. With a new management team you can do more with the same resources, than the current management is doing.

Bottom line is we're not playing anywhere near as well as we should be playing with these options in the squad. We should be up there with City and Liverpool in terms of quality of football and we're at least a level bellow if you discount what Messi does in La Liga weekly.

 

[BBZ8800]

We need a midfield that's able to progress the ball quickly and make the right passes between the lines, AND recognize open space and the runs of our FBs and forwards. Frenkie and Arthur have to be starters for that. After that you can throw in Busquets, Vidal or Roberto depending on the game.

Too often I see Rakitic and Busquets passing the ball backwards when you have Semedo/Alba/Dembele with space in front of them.

Kills any chance of a counter-attack.

Don, imo, you have a tunnel vision, like 90% of people here.
You are a fan of Pep, fine.

And then, when you are watching their matches, imo, from 100s of things which their players are doing, it seems as if you guys only see 2-3 things.

Brighton vs City, a match for the title:
City:
Gundogan, David Silva, Bernardo Silva - Sterling, Mahrez, Aguero.

Goals in league in the last season:
Bernardo 7
David Silva 6
Gundogan 6
-----------
Frenkie 3
Arthur 0
Busquets 0
=total: 19:3

Assists:
David Silva 8
Bernardo 7
Gundogan 3
-----------
Frenkie 3
Arthur 1
Busquets 1
=total 18:5

Key passes per match:
David Silva 2,2
Bernardo 2,0
Gundogan 1,4
------------
Frenkie 1,5
Arthur 0,5
Busquets 0,4
=total: 1,87:0,80

Shots per game:
Bernardo 1,7
David Silva 1,5
Gundogan 1,4
---------------
Frenkie 0,9
Arthur 0,2
Busquets 0,2
= total: 1,53:0,43

And you guys still don't see any problem with Frenkie+Arthur+Busi trio...
I know, on paper they look as the closest to classical Barca's DNA midfield.
Except one thing. Xavi and Iniesta were allrounders good in midfield and in the attacking 3rd.
Which leaves us with: pass the ball to Messi and hope for the best.
Even though he will be surrounded with 5 players since no one will mark Arthur and Busi, because well... they will never shoot on goal.

Imo:
1. Dembele and Arthur are the two most hyped players on our forum. Luckily, Dembele's hype is slowly dying.
2. let's see how much time will need to pass until people will realize that playing with 3 pivots is not good in terms of our goals scored in La liga

As I have said, I can't wait for a season too start.
It seems that a hype and a collective amnesia is strongest during the summer when there are no matches.
Arthur who is a part of an undisputed starting duo, was subbed almost every time in spring when we needed goals.
And dropped to a 5th place in a pecking order.
Suddenly he jumped to a 2nd place in a pecking order.

 

[DonAK]

The reason we don't score goals is because we don't create enough chances due to 2/3 midfielders not moving the ball fast enough and always playing backpasses or sidepasses despite an obvious solution available to progress the ball.

 

[serghei]

Did Arthur, Frenkie and Busi played under Guardiola? Ever? No. Then your comparison is worth nothing. The variables are different. The influence of a great manager is immense. That being said, even under average Valverde, pairing Arthur and Frenkie together will improve our chance creation. Not by as much as it should, as would be the case if we had a proper attacking manager, but an improvement will still be noticed.

 

[DonAK]

All great teams move the ball fast and efficiently with good movement off the ball from their midfielders and FBs. Always looking to progress the ball.

At Barca it's the opposite. No movement whatsoever from Rakitic + Busquets with neither willing to move the ball forward.

You know that infamous clip of Rakitic passing the ball to a Jordi Alba who's already under pressure? That clip where a simple pass to Suarez or Messi would result in a 3v3, 4v4 situation with open space to run into?

Yeah, Frenkie and Arthur would be aware of their surroundings and play that pass which would lead to a goalscoring chance 9/10 times.

@BBZ8800 can we keep it short without adding a lot of stats without context? I would love to discuss how our potential midfield should or should not look, but I'm simply not in the mood for all that.

Add stats all you want, but without context they're meaningless.

A friendly request.

 

[mc_lovin]

Hopefully we will have clarity soon. Will be a very interesting case study about how important stats are in football as well.



Edit: I am a firm believer stats mean next to nothing.

 

[serghei]

Stats are useful, but most of the times, a lot of factors go into some stats showing this or that, and those factors are completely disregarded by X or Y trying to prove something on some forum using those stats.

An example of using stats poorly is BBZ post from above, comparing the numbers of some midfielders playing in a Guardiola system which is the best positional play system in the world, vs the numbers of some players playing under Ernesto Valverde. It is obvious that better systems and tactics lead to better chance creation and more goals being scored. But yet he somehow disregards that and try to pin the difference on player quality alone. Which is basically one of the many ways of perverting the stats by attributing them false meanings.

 

[DonAK]

Stats are useful, but most of the times, a lot of factors go into some stats showing this or that, and those factors are completely disregarded by X or Y trying to prove something on some forum using those stats.

An example of using stats poorly is BBZ post from above, comparing the numbers of some midfielders playing in a Guardiola system which is the best positional play system in the world, vs the numbers of some players playing under Ernesto Valverde. It is obvious that better systems and tactics lead to better chance creation and more goals being scored. But yet he somehow disregards that and try to pin the difference on player quality alone. Which is basically one of the many ways of perverting the stats by attributing them false meanings.

One of BBZ's main arguments is that if the manager has dropped a player, no matter his age and experience, it's because the player isn't good enough, lack of quality and what not.

Guys like De Bruyne and Salah were dropped by a manager who played a rigid system and blamed them for not working hard enough defensively or not running enough as in De Bruyne's case.

I'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily always say anything about a player's ability and quality.

Valverde's always dropped players who probably deserved to play more on merit to play his starters, who have failed us multiple times when it's mattered the most.

 

[BBZ8800]

The reason we don't score goals is because we don't create enough chances due to 2/3 midfielders not moving the ball fast enough and always playing backpasses or sidepasses despite an obvious solution available to progress the ball.

Again, imo, there is too many theory here and dreaming.
I can't wait for a season to start, because people will be more realistic then.

Btw, in general, I don't have anything against Frenkie-Arthur duo.
But then, that duo is offering enough of press resistance, defending, silky passes.
And you need a guy who can create, shoot and assist in the attacking 3rd.

I am not saying that a guy is Raki.
But imo: Frenkie-Arthur-Raki is a way more allround-balanced trio for defense, passing and attacking 3rd than Busi-Frenkie-Arthur.

My ranking of 3 best lineups with Frenkie&Arthur would be:
1. Frenkie-Arthur-COU
2. Frenkie-Arthur-RAKI
3. Frenkie-Arthur-BUSI

But then you have another problem:
Busi is the only legendary guy left from Pep's Xavi-Iniesta-Busi golden era.
Xavi was a starter till the age 34.
Iniesta was a starter till the age 34.
And now you have Busi, who is only 31 and 1 Month old.
Now, do maths.

Busi WILL BE A STARTER for probably at least 2 seasons.
And now you have way bigger problems than "Rakitic".
Not only that Busi is bad lately and a liability in million of things.
But when you add that he WILL BE A STARTER, that is a huge problem to a Frenkie-Arthur duo because those 3 guys are too similar.

So, even if you kick or sell hated Raki, then Busi will be a starter for 2 years.
If Busi is a starter, you can't play let's say Cou as a CAM, because one out of Frenkie/Arthur would be benched.

So, the real question is: how will you make a good midfield lineup when Busi has to play for the next 2 years?
And tbh, probably Raki will also be a starter for 1 more year and Busi for 2 more years.

So, in reality, this year it will be:
Busi-Raki-Frenkie=people will hate this one because Arthur won't play and we won't have enough of movement.
Next year:
Busi-Frenkie-Arthur=people will hate this one again because of even slower Busi, and problems which I am mentioning will also probably occur.

So, we will have a better midfield probably in a summer of 2021

Did Arthur, Frenkie and Busi played under Guardiola? Ever? No. Then your comparison is worth nothing. The variables are different. The influence of a great manager is immense. That being said, even under average Valverde, pairing Arthur and Frenkie together will improve our chance creation. Not by as much as it should, as would be the case if we had a proper attacking manager, but an improvement will still be noticed.

Ev will be here.
Let's assume that he won't improve players.

That means that players will be guided by their default instincts.
That means: Busi and Arthur are useless in the attacking third without guidance.
Ok, Busi is an old horse either way and won't change his style of play.

 

[serghei]

One of BBZ's main arguments is that if the manager has dropped a player, no matter his age and experience, it's because the player isn't good enough, lack of quality and what not.

Guys like De Bruyne and Salah were dropped by a manager who played a rigid system and blamed them for not working hard enough defensively or not running enough as in De Bruyne's case.

I'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily always say anything about a player's ability and quality.

Valverde's always dropped players who probably deserved to play more on merit to play his starters, who have failed us multiple times when it's mattered the most.

This stems from the fact that he does not attribute the required importance for the position and the role of the manager. Players can be flops, most players we sign are flops for BBZ, but managers are somehow invested with the authority and wisdom by default, even when they show they are at best questionable in terms of quality. It's good old presumption that persons in authority automatically have the required skills to make good use of their high position. In fact it's the opposite. The more importance a role has, the less likely it is to find the right man for it. It's much harder to find the right manager than to find the right player for a position.

This only happens with users who think all the managers do is basically train the players and that's it. Everything is done by itself. Everything else is down to the players. If it doesn't work, the players are bad.

Even the guys on redcafe are starting to see how wrong this way of thinking is.