Pep Guardiola

[footyfan]

Well, for one, I'm assuming he's going to learn from this humbling. Secondly, I think Lewandowski is an upgrade to Mandzukic in terms of build-up and linking with other players - and I say this with great respect for Mandzukic's other strengths.

 

[Theconomist]

Actually that is one of Pep's biggest qualities. When he had a fit squad in the first half of the season, he always made the right changes and subs so that Bayern could win games when they were behind.
Mourinho is absolutely clueless what to do when his first 11 doesn't fit. He waits until he is behind and then subs in 3 strikers.

I was talking about Barca's Pep.
I admit not watching enough of Bayern's games to judge just the main ones where he looked clueless - but then again they lost their main games so maybe it's not fair.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

I was talking about Barca's Pep.
I admit not watching enough of Bayern's games to judge just the main ones where he looked clueless - but then again they lost their main games so maybe it's not fair.

I thought you were talking about Bayern.
But Barca did (does) not have a big variety of players so most of the time you can't bring in players that change a lot of things.

 

[DonAndres]

If he doesn't get fired, that is.
What can change with Lewa? Pep's trying to copy his Barca without Barca players. There's a problem for you.

Pep's system isn't just a product of the talent of Barca's players. Even if he won't ever reach the same levels of success at Bayern with it, total football is a tactial FORMAT that can be adjusted in a lot of different ways to succeed if fitted correctly.

Having Lewa off the bat improves the unity within the final third. There's three attackers that transition forward, not just two wingers and a big oaf in the form of Mandzukic waiting in the middle. Also, smarter midfield choices (dunno wtf Pep was thinking vs Madrid) instantly turns around Bayern's flaws. Starting with some proper foundation in his lineup allows him to then work with the players and get it to gel as best he can. Something like:

---Ribery-Lewa-Robben
------Thiago-Lahm
--------Martinez
Alaba-Dante-Boateng-Rafinha

Something like this with rotation of his unbelievably deep squad Would give him a great platform for implementing his system. It's not the same as Barca though. Lewa is a technical target man while Messi is false 9. The attacking play would be most dominant by freeing up the wings than through the center. He'd still have a blend of physical presences in Lewa, Martinez, Dante, Boateng, Alaba; midfielders with high workrate in Ribery, Robben, Thiago, and Lahm; and a great blend of power and technique. Not to mention he'll regularly use guys like Schweini, Muller, Kroos, and maybe Mandzukic in rotation.

Trying to make his system work with a double pivot has fucked him in the last month or so. Most of Bayern's worst games recently are a result of playing the 4-2-3-1 with Pep's system. This time vs Madrid, doing it without a truly defensive player in midfield is what lead to a massive rout. I don't understand why Pep's decision making was so poor recently, because the situation isn't so difficult that he cornered himself and can't find a solution. Trying to implement total football is very doable with what he has, I just think he needs to clear his head.

For the record, a similar issue lies at Barca. We have the ability to bring it back if we wanted to (again, no Golden Era but still a successful system) but we just need to be willing to do it. Obviously our issue is different in the sense of squad rejuvenation and having the right coach, but it's still within our grasp yet something that's eluded us for the past 2 seasons.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

Like I said prior, the decision to not start a true DM was extremely puzzling from Pep. Within the first 5 mins of the game, you could see how much space there was in the center for Madrid to exploit in behind Bayern's MF.

But every coach needs games like this to learn from. The biggest thing that both Pep and Barca need to realized is that the 4-4-2 is making a big comeback right now, with both Madrid teams deploying similar, dynamic and fast paced 4-4-2s. I mention the 4-4-2 because the biggest tactical flaw I think both teams are making is this over-reliance on overlapping wing backs to provide width in attack. Particularly when both are forward and attacking, a turnover and a quick outlet ball out to one of the strikers and its a 2 on 2. With the late runs from the MF, defenses get easily overwhelmed and give up prime scoring opportunities.

Any 4-3-3/4-1-4-1/4-2-3-1 setup that features attacking fullbacks will get eaten up by this setup. That's why I think the future of attacking football will feature 3 at the back. Off the counter, at worst it will be 3 on 3 which is still much easier to defend than a 2 on 2 against say Ronaldo and Bale.

I just think we need new looks. New shapes and new attacking schemes.

 

[Lomar1o]

pep never learned how to handle tough opposition. having played so many times against chelsea, against inter, he never learned SHIT. pep has been very one dimensional in that sense.

 

[DinhoR10]

You know how to beat the bus? Kick the ball into the opponents half and park your own bus

 

[serghei]

@DonAndres, if Barca used to struggle to break parked buses, Bayern will have even more problems. Xavi and Iniesta in 2009-2012 were players with exquisite close control, players that Bayern does not have -- except maybe Thiago, who's picking up quite a few injuries. Having a classic no9 in the box, surrounded by 2-3 defenders isn't going to bring you goals. Pepe and Ramos picked up almost every single cross Bayern made, and that wont change with Lewandowski.

Bayern Munchen is simply a counter-attacking side, their entire team is built that way. Take Robben, he's practically a weaker version of 2009 Messi without the insane ball control in tight spaces. If you don't give him space, he's like a fish out of water. You close down Ribery and Robben, and they are pretty much screwed, because their midfield can't unlock anything.

Bayern does not have a Messi and an Iniesta. They bought Gotze hoping they could shape him into somebody like Messi, I guess their plan failed since he didn't start in any of the two games vs Real.

Like I said prior, the decision to not start a true DM was extremely puzzling from Pep. Within the first 5 mins of the game, you could see how much space there was in the center for Madrid to exploit in behind Bayern's MF.

Real played a lot better on Allianz then on Bernabeu. A lot better. Pep thought that the game in Germany will look exactly like the one in Spain. It didn't, because Madrid was 5 times sharper on the break. Real and Atletico went to Germany and England to do serious damage and they did.

 

[BBZ8800]

I just think we need new looks. New shapes and new attacking schemes.

This.

Football is changing/evolving every few Seasons.
In one moment 442 is the strongest formation, in other era 451, in other era 433.

This is why we can't dream forever about 2008 or 2009' and trying to copy that system. That system worked a few years ago, not anymore.
With similar logic, we could ask our managers to apply a winning formation from 92' or Rijakaard's from 2006', but we won't, because those tactics are not the best anymore. They worked in 1992 and 2006, they won't work in 2015 or in 2020.

But too many people don't realize that even our Tiki-Taka, even with Pep and with all right players, and with the maximum possible amount of running, pressing, triangles and everything will never work as good as in 2008'

Football has changed since then. Our opponents have changed and evolved, they learned new tricks how to neutralize our attack, and learned new tricks how to score easily against us (today they know how to expose the problems and holes in our system. In 2008' nobody new the holes and how to expose our system).

This is why our system will also need upgrades and evolving.
The world will not end if we will apply some upgraded/better version of Possession/Attacking/Beautiful football.
And we will win titles again.

 

[DinhoR10]

This.

Football is changing/evolving every few Seasons.
In one moment 442 is the strongest formation, in other era 451, in other era 433.

This is why we can't dream forever about 2008 or 2009' and trying to copy that system. That system worked a few years ago, not anymore.
With similar logic, we could ask our managers to apply a winning formation from 92' or Rijakaard's from 2006', but we won't, because those tactics are not the best anymore. They worked in 1992 and 2006, they won't work in 2015 or in 2020.

But too many people don't realize that even our Tiki-Taka, even with Pep and with all right players, and with the maximum possible amount of running, pressing, triangles and everything will never work as good as in 2008'

Football has changed since then. Our opponents have changed and evolved, they learned new tricks how to neutralize our attack, and learned new tricks how to score easily against us (today they know how to expose the problems and holes in our system. In 2008' nobody new the holes and how to expose our system).

This is why our system will also need upgrades and evolving.
The world will not end if we will apply some upgraded/better version of Possession/Attacking/Beautiful football.
And we will win titles again.

Rijakaard was tha same 433 I believe but just with a different mindset, possession football but not keep the ball at all costs football.

 

[Alarcón]

4-3-3 / 4-1-2-1-2 has been the best formation for decades

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

Nah dude, everyone and the mothers is running either a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 right now, which is basically an inverted 4-4-1-1. Us, Ajax and and times PSG and the Serie A are really the only major teams in Europe that don't run either of those schemes. Almost all of England, and a majority of Spainish and German (CL/Europa level clubs) are playing a variation of a 4-4-2.

This is why I think attacking, possession oriented teams are going to start shifting to formations with three at the back. Its making quite the comeback in Italy at the moment, and I think with a solid defense that is athletic, mobile and good on the ball who plays a high-line trap, you can stifle CAs a lot easier and have more variation and freedom in your attacking schemes.

I think if we shifted to a 3-5-2 with Messi and Neymar/#9 up top and if Pep can get his man selection down for his 3-1-3-3, the buses will start coming down again.

 

[DonAndres]

@DonAndres, if Barca used to struggle to break parked buses, Bayern will have even more problems. Xavi and Iniesta in 2009-2012 were players with exquisite close control, players that Bayern does not have -- except maybe Thiago, who's picking up quite a few injuries. Having a classic no9 in the box, surrounded by 2-3 defenders isn't going to bring you goals. Pepe and Ramos picked up almost every single cross Bayern made, and that wont change with Lewandowski.

Well let's first say that only 3 teams (Chelsea, Atletico, maybe Real at times) in Europe can successfully park the bus at the moment anyway. That's also why I said total football is a FORMAT as in a system that can be adjusted to fit a style of play. Pep needs to learn that the total control domination style can't work in every single game (even tiki taka should be done more quickly to ensure more penetration; quickness in tiki taka always correlates with a LOT more chances). It's good to have a side that's more vertical, cedes possession on occasion, and has a unified counterattacking phase for those teams that are ultra-defensive or try to play that way.

To say that the style is dead or that we can never play that way anymore is close minded because one ONLY thinks about the "tiki taka" version of total football. There are many other sides and styles to implement it (Arrigo Sacchi's Milan side had it yet they didn't play like Barca, even Simeone's Atletico side has the unity and shape for it). Total football is essentially just a tactical system in which the side has perfectly balanced team shape (no scattered players, distance between lines/teammates is fairly even), is high in movement (a static team simply cannot play total football no matter what), and presses in defense (space is covered, it should be very difficult to find a way through). It's unification and uniformity in a team at it's best. Every transition between phases (both attacking and defensive) is perfectly natural and fluid, the players have the system supporting them to perform at their best. Often the two formations to do this are 4-4-2 or 4-3-3.

Arrigo Sacchi's Milan side played the high pressing 4-4-2. Pep's Barca a 4-3-3. Bayern played a 4-4-2 against us in the semis last year. Atletico play a 4-4-2. These teams at their peak are perfectly unified and embody the philosophy of total football.

The question that remains is whether Pep can mature to the point where he understands Total football in a holistic way rather than the one dimension of controlling play. If he can, then he could create a side that's flexible and unified. For a 4-3-3, the Thiago-Martinez-Lahm midfield is best. If he were to go outside his comfort zone and play a 4-4-2 on a vertical counterattack, Schweinsteiger-Martinez would be ideal. He has the squad to do so, it's just a matter of him relinquishing his ego and going back to the 'learning' aspect of tactics and how to use them.

Bayern does not have a Messi and an Iniesta. They bought Gotze hoping they could shape him into somebody like Messi, I guess their plan failed since he didn't start in any of the two games vs Real.

Can't say that he's failed if he's only 21 years old. Gotze is more of an investment than a short term impact (we've seen that with Neymar as well). He should be a versatile player throughout his entire career (being able to play on the wings, false 9, and attacking midfield). He'll improve a lot, he's on a pretty good path right now.

 

[jamrock]

pep just a good manager, Am i reading this stuff right?

pep's biggest issue, is a simple one and is the same issue we are now having, which is our susceptibility to the counter. this is the case primarily because bayern lost the balance in defense, by playing two attacking fullbacks. so once the team win the ball and counter, they attack down the flanks, that in turns drags either the CB or DM out of position and opens up space down the middle after that its just a matter of delivering the right ball.

the importance of abidal to our system, is constantly over looked, and while alaba and lahm or better defensively that our current fullbacks, possession football pulls them out of position more consistently, than the counter attacking system, where they once timed their attacking runs to deadly effect, with possession football they essentially living in the oppositions half.

with abidal and busquets we always had the back covered and could better guard against the counter attacking team scoring the first goal, and if you can stop that type of team from scoring the first goal, the job is almost done.

thats his main issue, the fact that bayern were off form didn't help. in away it would have been better for them to be in a league title fight to keep them on top of their toes. they have been on cruise mood since February, up until that point everyone was calling pep the greatest thing since slice bread.

with us he knew he has madrid waiting for the team to make a mistake so we played to the end of the season and peaked from February to may, bayern were on vacation by then.

no worries he is a smart guy he will figure it out, i'm sure he will win the CL with bayern in his three years there

 

[Ryan_Cule]

Pep Guardiola: "Beckenbauer should be telling war-time stories to children instead of telling me how to coach my team" (Bild).


EDIT : Bild just confirmed its fake.