Pep Guardiola
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Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
I don't undertand the notion that Barca fans can't criticize Guardiola or dislike certain elements/traits of how Guardiola conducts himself vis-à-vis other people.
True Cules must love him 100% otherwise you are not one? I don't get it.
True Cules must love him 100% otherwise you are not one? I don't get it.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Thats that sorted then.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Yip they do and Pep did also if there was not young players from B team he trusted.
Hence only really two of them being brought through from B team by Pep to be undisputed starters and Pep spending close to 100m in a summer rather than turning to La Masia at times.
People are blurring the lines as if Pep brought through countless B team players to undisputed starters. When he didnt and was happy to spend if didnt trust young players coming through.
What Pep did was change the whole focus and based the team on La Masia players and that lasts until today.
Jaykob
New member
serghei
Senior Member
Agreed.
Pep didn't trust young and unready players more than Lucho. That's a myth. He made Barca more Masia oriented because he spoted the insane talent we had at that time, a once in a lifetime generation. He had 3 players he fully trusted and 2 players that he used quite a bit. Pique, Busquets, Pedro were the ones he really formed and two of them are part of the backbone of Barcelona to this day. He also trusted Thiago (still not enough to not bring Cesc though), and to some extent Tello. To stretch the list beyond that it's too much. Sergi Roberto, Bartra, weren't actually developed by Pep.
Lucho has Roberto that he fully trusts (I think to the extent Pep trusted Pedro), and then has Rafinha who he played on regular basis, and also Munir who has had chances, and even Sandro at times. Bartra not that much, was clearly 4th CB for him. I could bet anything that with the current talent from La Masia, Pep wouldn't have done much better than Lucho regarding youth, if at all. Pep was fanatic about winning, no way in hell he would've played young players if he didn't think they were ready. Imposing his style and winning are everything to him.
It's amazing Lucho gets flack for supposedly not trusting young players and going for results only, when, in fact, all 3 young players he trusted the most (Roberto, Munir and Rafinha) were more or less pretty criticized around here for not being good enough. It's beyond crazy. Munir was "useless" and people wanted Roberto loaned. Now everyone is blaming Lucho for signing Paco Alcacer and loaning Munir.
What happened with 70% of the forum who said Sandro should be kept at the first team because he is better than Munir? The vast majority of the forum didn't think Munir deserved to be on the first team, yet Lucho took him at the first team, played him quite a lot in his 2 seasons, and now he is still being made to look like the bad guy, the guy who doesn't care about youth. He sure as hell cares more than the vast majority around here, who thought Munir and Roberto were failures, and didn't even imagine one would be missed and the other would become Alves' succesor at RB. Now it seems like Lucho was right and we were wrong (I didn't rate Roberto highly either, guilty of that, not with Munir though, always thought he is superior to Sandro), but somehow he comes across as the bad guy no matter what he does.
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ini4ever
Member
I think this debate won't end if it's only going to be talked about La Masia players, about how much time they're given under Lucho or were given under Pep or how many of those shined bla bla bla.
I think there are some parts missed here, let's back to Pep's era , Pep's managerial method is quite different to Lucho's ofc. Pep implements a system where all players can quite shine even if they're mediocre and surely it happens when the system works successfully.
Pedro for example, Pep could go and find out the best or one of the best wingers at the time for the replacement of Henry ( He couldn't produce his skills constantly due to his age obviously ) or develop one of these La Masia players and let him grow.
Is Pedro mediocre ? As my opinion Yes he is. As we can see he can't perform in Chelsea as good as he did for Barca and he failed ( Yes there could be several reasons but this could one of them )
Ok let's ask the question again but in other way, does that mean he's not good player at all ? No he might be good at some systems and under some coaches.
So there are some players who can perform well under specific systems but not in all ones ( So here we can't just say Pep had 'talented' players and that's it. The way Pep gets these players worked out well is the important key )
That all being said, Im going to point out, Pep has a method ( system ) that would let players those who are not 'world class' or 'star' at all, shine through the system. So certainly there would be more high chances to grab mediocre or less valued players ( In terms of spending money to buy a player ) to let them be world class.
And it's not about even La Masia players or something like this , I mean ofc Pep would take these Masia players if there's one who can give him the result he wants, who the bloody doesn't , why would you waste your time to find out a player that would fit your system when you have got it already beside yours. And if there's no one , he goes to find other ones ( Keita , Abidal , Masche, the bloody useful players he bought for the team ) , Or like Costa , Coman , Kimmich in his Bayern era and so on. ( I bet he would've brought players from Bayern's academic if there was any )
And that's exactly the point here, Lucho can't do this much because he can't simple as that. he doesn't have a special system that would let more players to shine therefore, he's got less chance to reveal Masia players in a surprising way. he relies more on individual skills of a player, he likes players who proved themselves already, he doesn't risk as much as some people expect.
To be honest , it's funny to me how some people try to say Lucho is good at this case while he isn't or debating about how 'saint' Pep is, This is what Pep does, He develops players and let them perform at the maximum level. Why on earth should someone not trying to do when you're good at it ? And ofc to some people is more way valuable if they see their coach is trying to play the academic or home-grown players and bring them success.
But at the end of the day Lucho brought us trophies same as Pep,But the way how they brought, the way how the team performed during the period is important to some people ( let's be honest here back in the day we were all proud of how Barca performed during 2008-12 and established his legacy in the football history )
p.s : being 'failure' on Pedro I mean he doesn't perform the same as he's been doing.
I think there are some parts missed here, let's back to Pep's era , Pep's managerial method is quite different to Lucho's ofc. Pep implements a system where all players can quite shine even if they're mediocre and surely it happens when the system works successfully.
Pedro for example, Pep could go and find out the best or one of the best wingers at the time for the replacement of Henry ( He couldn't produce his skills constantly due to his age obviously ) or develop one of these La Masia players and let him grow.
Is Pedro mediocre ? As my opinion Yes he is. As we can see he can't perform in Chelsea as good as he did for Barca and he failed ( Yes there could be several reasons but this could one of them )
Ok let's ask the question again but in other way, does that mean he's not good player at all ? No he might be good at some systems and under some coaches.
So there are some players who can perform well under specific systems but not in all ones ( So here we can't just say Pep had 'talented' players and that's it. The way Pep gets these players worked out well is the important key )
That all being said, Im going to point out, Pep has a method ( system ) that would let players those who are not 'world class' or 'star' at all, shine through the system. So certainly there would be more high chances to grab mediocre or less valued players ( In terms of spending money to buy a player ) to let them be world class.
And it's not about even La Masia players or something like this , I mean ofc Pep would take these Masia players if there's one who can give him the result he wants, who the bloody doesn't , why would you waste your time to find out a player that would fit your system when you have got it already beside yours. And if there's no one , he goes to find other ones ( Keita , Abidal , Masche, the bloody useful players he bought for the team ) , Or like Costa , Coman , Kimmich in his Bayern era and so on. ( I bet he would've brought players from Bayern's academic if there was any )
And that's exactly the point here, Lucho can't do this much because he can't simple as that. he doesn't have a special system that would let more players to shine therefore, he's got less chance to reveal Masia players in a surprising way. he relies more on individual skills of a player, he likes players who proved themselves already, he doesn't risk as much as some people expect.
To be honest , it's funny to me how some people try to say Lucho is good at this case while he isn't or debating about how 'saint' Pep is, This is what Pep does, He develops players and let them perform at the maximum level. Why on earth should someone not trying to do when you're good at it ? And ofc to some people is more way valuable if they see their coach is trying to play the academic or home-grown players and bring them success.
But at the end of the day Lucho brought us trophies same as Pep,But the way how they brought, the way how the team performed during the period is important to some people ( let's be honest here back in the day we were all proud of how Barca performed during 2008-12 and established his legacy in the football history )
p.s : being 'failure' on Pedro I mean he doesn't perform the same as he's been doing.
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TornAndFrayed
Banned
I don't even know why people are arguing about Pep. He signed Bravo, so what ? One of our GKs was on the move, Guardiola or not. I posted about it a year ago and am no genius.
Some posts are downright laughable. All it takes is one dude saying pep is a saint/ a devil for a bunch to flip their shit. Don't know why, but Guardiola is the ultimate bait here.
Btw, Pep is a saint.
Some posts are downright laughable. All it takes is one dude saying pep is a saint/ a devil for a bunch to flip their shit. Don't know why, but Guardiola is the ultimate bait here.
Btw, Pep is a saint.
I
instinct
Guest
Ekul
New member
Has Pep even treated Joe Hart badly? All he's done is not pick him; that happens in Football. Managers like and dislike players, deal with it. If Joe Hart was as good as people make out, another top club would've snapped him up, he wouldn't have been choosing between Sunderland and Torino.
Can't be compared to Mourinho making Schweinsteiger (who's won absolutely everything in Football) train with the U23s. That's just disrespectful.
Can't be compared to Mourinho making Schweinsteiger (who's won absolutely everything in Football) train with the U23s. That's just disrespectful.
serghei
Senior Member
As I said, if a manager comes in and says he doesn't need Iniesta and loans him out to some C level team, while he brings Kante instead of him because said manager likes strong players, he'll be the enemy of the state in Barcelona, and he'd be excluded by the locker room right away. It wouldn't be like "all he's done is not pick him".
A manager doesn't have complete freedom at a club, and unlimited power, like some here think. You can't go to a team and eliminate every single thing you don't like. This is not redecorating houses you know, it's not like you buy a place and you don't like a vase so you throw it away, and you go to IKEA to buy another one, fancier.
You have to make some efforts in order to make it work at a team, that shouldn't resume to a buying spree. What if his team wasn't Manchester City? What if his team was smaller, with less money to just buy whoever Pep wants? In those situations he would have to make it work with what he has on his hands, including a keeper with Hart's profile. It's either that, or failure. But that's why he went at City in the first place. Because he knew their money would've made things a lot easier for him. It's just a whole lot easier to work with exactly the players you want, to cherry pick whatever players you like (minus 4-5 players who play in that position for the biggest teams, and can't be attained) and have them transferred at your service. Most managers don't always have that luxury, nor do they should. But Pep moves every 3-4 season, and only to financial power-houses, in order to make sure he does get what he wants.
But it's OK, I get his strenghts, and I also get his weaknesses. He's limited by his vision, and his vision is only achievable with filthy rich teams who can sign those top players with ease, or teams who perfectly identify with his style (Barca). What he is in fact doing post Barca, is create Barca 2011 clones, who each have some limbs that are missing. His style is beautiful, certainly the most beautiful I've seen, but his reaction to anything that even slightly goes against his vision is extreme, and bound to cause conflicts with anyone who think differenty and speaks out against it. So, in short, a genius, but also a dictator. A stylist, but also a person who doesn't seem to care much about those who are not part of his plans. And because he is only focused on what he sees as his vision and his great plan, he often ends up (willingly, or not) treating other players (or staff) quite badly in my opinion.
A manager doesn't have complete freedom at a club, and unlimited power, like some here think. You can't go to a team and eliminate every single thing you don't like. This is not redecorating houses you know, it's not like you buy a place and you don't like a vase so you throw it away, and you go to IKEA to buy another one, fancier.
You have to make some efforts in order to make it work at a team, that shouldn't resume to a buying spree. What if his team wasn't Manchester City? What if his team was smaller, with less money to just buy whoever Pep wants? In those situations he would have to make it work with what he has on his hands, including a keeper with Hart's profile. It's either that, or failure. But that's why he went at City in the first place. Because he knew their money would've made things a lot easier for him. It's just a whole lot easier to work with exactly the players you want, to cherry pick whatever players you like (minus 4-5 players who play in that position for the biggest teams, and can't be attained) and have them transferred at your service. Most managers don't always have that luxury, nor do they should. But Pep moves every 3-4 season, and only to financial power-houses, in order to make sure he does get what he wants.
But it's OK, I get his strenghts, and I also get his weaknesses. He's limited by his vision, and his vision is only achievable with filthy rich teams who can sign those top players with ease, or teams who perfectly identify with his style (Barca). What he is in fact doing post Barca, is create Barca 2011 clones, who each have some limbs that are missing. His style is beautiful, certainly the most beautiful I've seen, but his reaction to anything that even slightly goes against his vision is extreme, and bound to cause conflicts with anyone who think differenty and speaks out against it. So, in short, a genius, but also a dictator. A stylist, but also a person who doesn't seem to care much about those who are not part of his plans. And because he is only focused on what he sees as his vision and his great plan, he often ends up (willingly, or not) treating other players (or staff) quite badly in my opinion.
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ini4ever
Member
Oh boy
Luxury ? , Is your list also included Carlo, Mou , Wenger , Ferguson, Mancini too ? because you're saying Most managers but i don't get it while all of those top managers for the last decade always have got the players they wanted.
Check this out, although it's for 04-14 but we can update it tho, if we included amount of money spent between 14-16 by Pep he'd surpass Ferguson but still behind Wenger and it doesn't matter because he's far behind Carlo and Mou yet. Even Lucho has spent €310M so far, in three season.
So look at this cruel world, every single manager you'd point out nowadays, they have already spent tons of money on transferred players.
teams who perfectly identify with his style (Barca). That's what every manager do. Why they would manage a team that has got nothing to their philosophy/tactics and etc. Why Mou has only managed teams which they are defensive ? Why he wouldn't come to Barca or Liverpool, I wonder.
Ferguson managed Manchester United for over +20 years, Marcello Lippi's managerial career ended up only in Serie A league, Why didn't he come to La Liga or Premier league?
You see coaches go where they feel they belong to, where they can implement their ideas more easily and that's it.
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serghei
Senior Member
Yea, well, of course you don't spend loads when you have the likes of Messi in your team. That's common logic. Let's see post Barca shall we? Find a chart in the last 3-4 years. I suspect Pep is in top 5. Hell, he spent over half of what he spent at Barcelona and Bayern combined in a single transfer window at City.
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