Aryagorn
Improvin' Perfection!!
yeah... Him too
Premier League 2014/15
- Thread starter AnfieldEd
- Start date
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yeah... Him too
DennyCrane
Senior Member
On the occasion of seeing all English teams eliminated from the CL accompaniend by the usual media frenzy, I'd like to add something to the current debate and point out that english teams slumbered the last ten or fifteen years in worldwide football development.
Massive TV deals and a conglomorate of star players can't hide the fact that the majority of english teams are tactically miles away from being competitive on the international level.
If one were to ask what the core of modern football is, especially delimited from the football of the 80s or 90s, the answer would be pressing - in all it's manifestations.
Some coaches on the island, like Brendan Rogers with the trademark hit-n-run, yet nowhere near excellently executed pressing in the beginning phase of matches, or Pochettino with Southhampton are the exceptions, not the rule.
English teams usually act surprised by the dozen when they are confronted with opponents on the international level who aggressively attack the ball leading player, cut passing options early and leave them little time and space to build up. Movement against the ball is inadequate across the board. Strategical concepts, both individual and collective, like covering, doubling and tripling up on players , use of covering shadows or pressing-traps are almost nowhere to be found. Especially striking is the lack of proper implementation of team based strategical, yet fundamental aspects like the establishment of compactness. Which leads directly to my next issue which is a source the pressing problems.
Distances between the players are too wide across the board, the important spaces (half-spaces and center, between the lines, the space immediately in front of the box) are playable too easily; rarely several players are able to put pressure on the opponent in these spaces. Even when the players are pressured, there is a lack of support and compactness of the collective. Due to that, the blocking of paths, passing and/or evasion options doesn't work, due to which the opponent can relatively easily maneuver out of this pseuso-pressure situations.
When shifting the collective to the side of the pitch, the intensity is low and often times only a few players near the ball step out of formation and display what I like to call alibi-pressing: The rest of the players move only slightly, if at all. Which is why local compactness near the ball, and the collectie compactness on the horizontal are both weak. Coupled with the low intensity approach and inappropriate distances both horizontally and vertically, several spaces are created for the opponent to play in. The proceedings of shifting in general, not only in the process of pressing, but also defending near the box and generally ball-orientated shifting are therefore lacking. Add to that a bad coordination and low complexity in group-based movement and dynamical situations.
Gegenpressing ? Nope. Counter-pressing ? Nah. A fitting structure in posession to prepare transition-play ? Why do I even bother.
The offense strategy is very simplistic as well. Posession based football (pbf) is assessed wrongly and furthermore used in an unstructured way. Between the common misconception between "pbf as a tool" and "pbf as a philosophy", it's also the lacking flexibility and specialization within this concept that's problematic. In the entire league, there are only marginal differences in the offensive approach. Every team tries to play a mixture of ball-circulation and counter-attacks, without being innovative or anything special in either of them.
A broad diversification in the strategic direction, an innovative implementation of a single idea, a fulfillment of tactical basics and a great tactical flexibility are all nowhere to be found. With the exception of Swansea and last seasons West Ham of course; the latter sadly due to the fact that they mostly waived build up play and hoofed the ball forward the entire time.
Between the lack of diversification and high quality play, it's also striking that the run of the mill teams of the league lack a coherent task assignment. These teams look like they were created on a draft paper. Simple offense structure, largely similar offensive direction, concentration on a fast overcoming of space; wing play crosses and single actions. Yawn. No efficient offensive play and even worse, no identity.
And while I am aware that some coaches and teams try to take a different route and establish a different football culture, this hasn't yet spread to other teams; respectively those teams and coaches have their own share of problems, which I don't intend to elaborate on now.
Meanwhile, in continental Europe, the wind blows from a different quarter. In the BuLi, there's Bayern with a sophisticated position play, Leverkusen with ultra fast transitioning, Dortmund with it's highly variable counter-play (when in form), Gladbach with the direct passing and shifts in playing rythym and many teams who have very interresting single tactical aspects or at least display a high degree of flexibility (Freiburgs intensity, Mainzs' variability etc.). The same could be said about the spanish teams. England ? Indication error.
Massive TV deals and a conglomorate of star players can't hide the fact that the majority of english teams are tactically miles away from being competitive on the international level.
If one were to ask what the core of modern football is, especially delimited from the football of the 80s or 90s, the answer would be pressing - in all it's manifestations.
Some coaches on the island, like Brendan Rogers with the trademark hit-n-run, yet nowhere near excellently executed pressing in the beginning phase of matches, or Pochettino with Southhampton are the exceptions, not the rule.
English teams usually act surprised by the dozen when they are confronted with opponents on the international level who aggressively attack the ball leading player, cut passing options early and leave them little time and space to build up. Movement against the ball is inadequate across the board. Strategical concepts, both individual and collective, like covering, doubling and tripling up on players , use of covering shadows or pressing-traps are almost nowhere to be found. Especially striking is the lack of proper implementation of team based strategical, yet fundamental aspects like the establishment of compactness. Which leads directly to my next issue which is a source the pressing problems.
Distances between the players are too wide across the board, the important spaces (half-spaces and center, between the lines, the space immediately in front of the box) are playable too easily; rarely several players are able to put pressure on the opponent in these spaces. Even when the players are pressured, there is a lack of support and compactness of the collective. Due to that, the blocking of paths, passing and/or evasion options doesn't work, due to which the opponent can relatively easily maneuver out of this pseuso-pressure situations.
When shifting the collective to the side of the pitch, the intensity is low and often times only a few players near the ball step out of formation and display what I like to call alibi-pressing: The rest of the players move only slightly, if at all. Which is why local compactness near the ball, and the collectie compactness on the horizontal are both weak. Coupled with the low intensity approach and inappropriate distances both horizontally and vertically, several spaces are created for the opponent to play in. The proceedings of shifting in general, not only in the process of pressing, but also defending near the box and generally ball-orientated shifting are therefore lacking. Add to that a bad coordination and low complexity in group-based movement and dynamical situations.
Gegenpressing ? Nope. Counter-pressing ? Nah. A fitting structure in posession to prepare transition-play ? Why do I even bother.
The offense strategy is very simplistic as well. Posession based football (pbf) is assessed wrongly and furthermore used in an unstructured way. Between the common misconception between "pbf as a tool" and "pbf as a philosophy", it's also the lacking flexibility and specialization within this concept that's problematic. In the entire league, there are only marginal differences in the offensive approach. Every team tries to play a mixture of ball-circulation and counter-attacks, without being innovative or anything special in either of them.
A broad diversification in the strategic direction, an innovative implementation of a single idea, a fulfillment of tactical basics and a great tactical flexibility are all nowhere to be found. With the exception of Swansea and last seasons West Ham of course; the latter sadly due to the fact that they mostly waived build up play and hoofed the ball forward the entire time.
Between the lack of diversification and high quality play, it's also striking that the run of the mill teams of the league lack a coherent task assignment. These teams look like they were created on a draft paper. Simple offense structure, largely similar offensive direction, concentration on a fast overcoming of space; wing play crosses and single actions. Yawn. No efficient offensive play and even worse, no identity.
And while I am aware that some coaches and teams try to take a different route and establish a different football culture, this hasn't yet spread to other teams; respectively those teams and coaches have their own share of problems, which I don't intend to elaborate on now.
Meanwhile, in continental Europe, the wind blows from a different quarter. In the BuLi, there's Bayern with a sophisticated position play, Leverkusen with ultra fast transitioning, Dortmund with it's highly variable counter-play (when in form), Gladbach with the direct passing and shifts in playing rythym and many teams who have very interresting single tactical aspects or at least display a high degree of flexibility (Freiburgs intensity, Mainzs' variability etc.). The same could be said about the spanish teams. England ? Indication error.
Blaugrana Bull
HiiiPoWeR
Very good and true post.
I also posted that in here (not that detailed though) but the guys that think EPL is the best will deny these clear facts anyway.
I also posted that in here (not that detailed though) but the guys that think EPL is the best will deny these clear facts anyway.
S7_MUFC
New member
So why were the English teams so successful during the second half of the last decade? The whole issue with tactics, pressing etc. was basically same back then yet English teams only started underperforming after Real's new galactico policy and emergence of pep's Barca as one of the best teams ever...As a United fan I saw my team do pretty well in Europe despite having players who were ridiculously average compared to Real,Barca and Bayern players...I'm convinced that current situation is down to sheer quality of individual players...
R
Ryu Hayabusa
Guest
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...n-Munich-win-Premier-League-10-15-points.html
best league in the world...
best league in the world...
R
Ryu Hayabusa
Guest
three actually.
S7_MUFC
New member
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...n-Munich-win-Premier-League-10-15-points.html
best league in the world...
Nobody would argue with that but the whole best league debate hinges more on the competitiveness of the league as a whole....If the best team being better determined what league is better than French league would be better than PL...
Ode to Django
You're not even a real journalism
It's still the best world in the league
F
Flavia
Guest
Have you forgotten your matches against Athletic Bilbao? It's not only a matter of individual players.
DennyCrane
Senior Member
You named it, the end of last decade is the key as it marks the rupture. The advent of Pep's Barca changed the football world on a fundamental level: short passing, pressing in all it's varieties, ball circulation, compactness, collective movement. These Barca hallmark assets are now a conditio-sine-qua-non in modern football and have become more important with each passing year for all elite clubs since then, regardless of their general playstyle, and this is where the english clubs couldn't keep step. It's tactical stagnancy due to a variety of reasons.
Last edited:
S7_MUFC
New member
But that Athletic side was pretty good and our players weren't motivated to play well in Europa league....and in terms of individual players we were pretty shite back then and had cleverley in midfield against the likes of Herrara and Javi Martinez...That match is an exception and tactically we pretty much matched Real next season and were unlucky to lose that tie so, I don't get how lack of tactical evolution is the problem for English sides...The problem for each side is unique and you have to look at individual clubs instead of generalizing and blaming a single issue such as tactics...Tactically Chelsea and City are miles apart yet they both went out so simply blaming tactics is simplistic...How can english clubs have managers who have european pedigree yet fail to see this so called tactical deficiency?..
KyletheMuslim
Guardiolista
Your entire footballing culture is just old-fashioned, medieval, archaic. The english national team sucks, and that is reflected by the fact that the majority of the leagues biggest stars are foreign players. You refuse to invest in youth development and instead spend all your money on buying and overpaying foreign players and marketing !.
I mean just look at the last 3 world cups, won by Italy, Spain and Germany respectively. Players from Juventus, Barcelona and Bayern Munchen formed the cores of those teams. Serie A, La liga and Bundesliga have all invested heavily in youth development and it is showing.
England and by extension the premier league is far, far, behind the rest of europe in terms of footballing culture. The most recent Cl winner from england was chelsea is 2012 and that team was a joke. It'll be a long time before another english club wins again I assure you
L
linetty
Guest
Obviously.
Jair Ventura
New member
Well, in that case, the most competitive leagues would be La Liga and Ligue 1.
DrPepper
New member
http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/11/21/the-problem-with-english-football/
Also a very good article that describes England's tactical deficites. A lot of it already has been described by DennyCrane but it's no doubt worth a read. It's an incredibly popular opinion in tactical discussions here in Germany.
It's actually too bad that England slowly are starting to realize the need to do something. Well, although, for them it'll be probably mean buy even more overpriced players instead of doing the right things.
Also a very good article that describes England's tactical deficites. A lot of it already has been described by DennyCrane but it's no doubt worth a read. It's an incredibly popular opinion in tactical discussions here in Germany.
It's actually too bad that England slowly are starting to realize the need to do something. Well, although, for them it'll be probably mean buy even more overpriced players instead of doing the right things.
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