Premier League 2018/19

[serghei]

You can’t turn stone into gold. Alberto Moreno is utter awful even under Klopp.

That is true of course. Liverpool have top players. Barcelona have at least as good individual players though, and they still play like shit.

 

[Centauri B]

That is true of course. Liverpool have top players. Barcelona have at least as good individual players though, and they still play like shit.

NO.


Alisson = Ter Stegen (maybe Ter Stegen slightly better, but not by too much)

VVD >>> Pique

Gomez/Matip > Lenglet (not by too much, but better)

TAA >>>>>>>>> Roberto/Semedo

Robertson >> Alba (let alone Firpo)

Henderson >> Rakitic

Fabinho >> Busquets (now that he is old)

Wijnaldum > Vidal (now that he is also old)

Keita < FDJ (still, Keita a very good player that is now gaining momentum)

Salah <<<<<<< Messi (still, Salah is a world-class player, it's just that any player in football history is pathetic when compared to Messi)

Firmino >> Suarez (now that he is old)

Mane > Griez (even though Griez is by now rapidly improving)

Yes, and if you insist on insisting on managers, Klopp >>> EV, but I prefer to focus my analysis on the most obvious and most objective parameter in football, the actual fucking players, on the actual fucking pitch.

 

[serghei]

Lol, if you change managers in that Liverpool Barcelona tie, we win it by 2-3 goals aggregate with the squads available for both managers. Fuck it man, wake up, we almost knocked out Liverpool with Valverde as a manager.

How the fuck do you draw the conclusion that the Liverpool squad is so much better, when we almost knocked them out with Ernesto Valverde as a manager (who thinks fitness is not important and the less you run the more chances you have to win), while Liverpool have the no1 guy in the world managing their team.

Lol, imagine a Liverpool with Valverde as a manager trying to come back from a 0-3 defeat on Camp Nou, while we have Messi in the field, and we are managed by Klopp .

2 years ago when Valverde was named as a Barcelona manager, our squad was rated by half a billion euros more than Liverpool's according to transfermarkt. After two years with Valverde, and 2 years for Liverpool with Klopp, all of our players declined in value, and all of Liverpool's increased in value.

 

[Centauri B]

Lol, if you change managers in that Liverpool Barcelona tie, we win it by 2-3 goals aggregate with the squads available for both managers. Fuck it man, wake up, we almost knocked out Liverpool with Valverde as a manager.

How the fuck do you draw the conclusion that the Liverpool squad is so much better, when we almost knocked them out with Ernesto Valverde as a manager (who thinks fitness is not important and the less you run the more chances you have to win), while Liverpool have the no1 guy in the world managing their team.

Lol, imagine a Liverpool with Valverde as a manager trying to come back from a 0-3 defeat on Camp Nou, while we have Messi in the field, and we are managed by Klopp .

2 years ago when Valverde was named as a Barcelona manager, our squad was rated by half a billion euros more than Liverpool's according to transfermarkt. After two years with Valverde, and 2 years for Liverpool with Klopp, all of our players declined in value, and all of Liverpool's increased in value.

We have ageing players, ergo their value progressively goes down. Pool have up and coming players, their value goes up.

 

[serghei]

Liverpool squad value in 2017 when the manager was Klopp: €495.00m
Barcelona squad value in 2017 when the manager was Valverde: €772.50m

So when Valverde was named manager, our squad was worth about 70% more than Liverpool's.

Liverpool squad value in 2019 when the manager is Klopp: €1.18bn
Barcelona squad value in 2019 when the manager is Valverde: €1.09bn

We've increased with about 230m. (natural inflation), while Liverpool's squad in 2 years with Klopp increased by almost 700m. So, Liverpool's squad increased 3 times more than our squad did under Valverde in the same time frame.

Pure coincidence I know. Arnold would've been valued at 110m if his coach would've been Valverde in all this time. . Lol.

Numbers from transfermarkt.

We have ageing players, ergo their value progressively goes down. Pool have up and coming players, their value goes up.

We also have young players who didn't develop under Valverde (fucking no one did), even though they were rated 2 years ago at more than most of Liverpool's youngsters.

 

[serghei]

The correct way to put it is that the Barcelona squad managed by an average manager like Valverde is almost as valuable as Liverpool's squad managed by an expert like Klopp.

If in 2017 we would've got Klopp and Liverpool would've appointed Valverde, the gap between the squads would be in excess of 1bn in favor of Barcelona. Simply because of the huge discrepancy between quality of the managers.

 

[Centauri B]

The correct way to put it is that the Barcelona squad managed by an average manager like Valverde is almost as valuable as Liverpool's squad managed by an expert like Klopp.

If in 2017 we would've got Klopp and Liverpool would've appointed Valverde, the gap between the squads would be in excess of 1bn in favor of Barcelona. Simply because of the huge discrepancy between quality of the managers.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Wouldn't you consider the possibility that Liverpool were more efficient in their transfer dealings than Barca were? They seem to have the best scouting and recruiting department in all of Europe (big clubs considered) IF, that is a big IF, it was all Klopp making all the transfer decisions, then I agree, he made the difference and we should try and buy him or his aides. If not, the we should learn from Liverpool's methodology in evaluating and selecting players.

This suggestion that a manager can transform/develop players due to his inherent genius seems ludicrous to me. Just watch highlights of all the Pool players that are now world-beaters right before being signed by Liverpool, they were all in tremendous form but because they were not playing in the fanciest teams or the fanciest leagues, clubs/managers/scouts/agents/fans/pundits all overlooked them and are now surprised.

 

[serghei]

Maybe. Maybe not.

Wouldn't you consider the possibility that Liverpool were more efficient in their transfer dealings than Barca were? They seem to have the best scouting and recruiting department in all of Europe (big clubs considered) IF, that is a big IF, it was all Klopp making all the transfer decisions, then I agree, he made the difference and we should try and buy him or his aides. If not, the we should learn from Liverpool's methodology in evaluating and selecting players.

No.

Their scouting was there before Klopp too right? How come they were struggling on the 6th places in Premier League until Klopp came (with the exception of that crazy Suarez season where he almost carried them to a title)? Here, there you have it.

Their scouting is suddenly world class after Klopp came. Before then they were signing the likes of Andy Carol, N'gog, Benteke, Aspas. Why? Because he is an ace at developing players, players who would never get to these heights without him.

This suggestion that a manager can transform/develop players due to his inherent genius seems ludicrous to me. Just watch highlights of all the Pool players that are now world-beaters right before being signed by Liverpool, they were all in tremendous form but because they were not playing in the fanciest teams or the fanciest leagues, clubs/managers/scouts/agents/fans/pundits all overlooked them and are now surprised.

Great managers elevate players and create great teams. What is ludicrous is the idea that players evolve the same under any manager. The manager is the biggest outside influence in a player's career.

Nobody anticipated this very violent and quick upwards trajectory of most Liverpool's players, not because they were all hidden legends. But because Klopp is one of the best managers of all time without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[KingLeo10]

Liverpool's players are top rated AT THIS MOMENT because they had Klopp develop them.

Very, very few players dominate irrespective of manager. Of the ones currently playing, I would argue only Messi, CR7 and a motivated Neymar have that sort of talent.

From Pool, the only player(s) who aren't a direct byproduct of Klopp's system/philosophy are VVD and maybe Alisson. Salah, Mane, Firmino, TAA, Robertson have all been elevated to far above their showings at other clubs/ 2 years earlier. Let's not even mention Wijnaldum, Hendo, Matip, Ox, Fabinho, Shaqiri, Origi or Milner who are mid table quality without Don Jurgen.

 

[KingLeo10]

Comparing TAA and Robertson to Alves and Marcelo is also blasphemous. The former 2 are world class right now but Alves and Marcelo put up legendary performances in multiple CL KOs, CL semi-finals and CL finals against the likes of RM, Bayern, Juve, AM etc. Liverpool's statement win in the CLs have been a past it Bayern and Cuckverde led Barca (AM beat a MUCH stronger Bayern and Barca in 15/16 for comparison). Gritty win against Spurs in the final, too instead of a thumping like Barca's CL finals or RM's v Juve. Impressive but not legendary, yet.

And my eye test tells me the Brazilians were simply better on the ball. I'm 99.99% certain TAA and Robertson's ceiling isn't that high.

 

[El Gato]

The dickriding is so nauseating. You two (mainly serghei really) could at least ease off on that.

Liverpool haven't had a single crisis, be it institutional, injury or otherwise. There is no evidence to prove this is also Klopp's management influence, I suspect partly it is, but them going 2 years without injuries of over 2 weeks to VVD or either of their fullbacks (or wingers?) is a major missed talking point. What is indeed commendable is that when the forwards were out for Barcelona, the others stepped up, but that is also not difficult to do at that ground and for that club where Milan Baros, Luis Garcia or Vladimir Smicer played and gone to Istanbul to do basically the same away. Still, impressive.

There is always going to be doubt about Liverpool until they face a true problem that throws their balance i.e. VVD is out for 6 months, or his form drops off a cliff with some personal trauma or whatever else. Everywhere else they're pretty well constructed. But their holding piece is a defender, not a forward. And anyway, they can be got at. Just not by an old team who get scared.

 

[serghei]

What? They just had to overturn a 3-0 against a Messi-led Barcelona with Origi and Shaqiri up front , missing two of their best players. And won the game 4-0.

Also, at their holding piece is a defender. The best thing about them is their pressing and how they recover the ball high up. Add to that the quick reaction time of their front three and you have a team capable to win the ball high up in enemy territory and do the damage with the ball once that happens.

Their best player is Salah.

 

[El Gato]

What? They just had to overturn a 3-0 against a Messi-led Barcelona with Origi and Shaqiri up front , missing two of their best players. And won the game 4-0.

Yh. Is it that surprising/shocking in hindsight? It's impressive, but obviously there are numerous 'buts' here. 1 - it's not like the epic comeback makes Klopp the mastermind here; 2- their efforts would have been undone by one goal fluffed in on the other end in that fixture.

And 2 weeks without starting forwards isn't a crisis. These happen all the time. Their rather surprising record of no long-term injuries is what should be highlighted more. Their captains seem very robust physically and are almost always present, same with more dynamic players more susceptible to some groin pull. No chronic problems after Sturridge gone. Klopp is a good fitness guru. But at some point lightning will strike their Dutch golden hen too. Or so you'd think.
Take on-pitch leaders out and see how the gang performs. Many clubs whimper and lose the confidence when that happens.

 

[serghei]

Yh. Is it that surprising/shocking in hindsight? It's impressive, but obviously there are numerous 'buts' here. 1 - it's not like the epic comeback makes Klopp the mastermind here; 2- their efforts would have been undone by one goal fluffed in on the other end in that fixture.

And 2 weeks without starting forwards isn't a crisis. These happen all the time. Their rather surprising record of no long-term injuries is what should be highlighted more. Their captains seem very robust physically and are almost always present, same with more dynamic players more susceptible to some groin pull. No chronic problems after Sturridge gone. Klopp is a good fitness guru. But at some point lightning will strike their Dutch golden hen too. Or so you'd think.

You totally overrate how important Van Dijk is for them. They rarely park the bus or absorb pressure these days. They more often have a go at teams. Maybe 1-2 teams could make them play on the back food and defend for large spells.

 

[El Gato]

You totally overrate how important Van Dijk is for them. They rarely park the bus or absorb pressure these days. They more often have a go at teams. Maybe 1-2 teams could make them play on the back food and defend for large spells.

But of course.

Lol.