Quique Setien

[El Gato]

The strategy of the club is basically keeping the status quo and tailoring the club, from tactics, to training sessions, to everything to appease the veterans.

Goes both ways - veterans, in some ways, haven't done much to deserve termination and are still better than most of what's on offer. Players as experienced as Pique or Busquets aren't present everywhere, and if they are they cost upwards of 60M per player. Which is why the only sensible strategy is to make sure you scout the fuck out of fertile talent pools like Brazil or France. Barca ARE doing some of it, but not enough, because you're bringing in trophies that keep the numbers in an acceptable state and seemingly little priority is being ascribed to it.

Basically sometimes you just need to be ruthless and risky. Get rid of what's making you buckets of money and take a leap by enticing a manager and a few key names to a certain project. Look 3 to 5 to 8 years forward. This is what the club isn't doing. And it has fuckall to do with what manager alone you appoint, because absolutely anyone in Setien's position would have done the same if they were told that vets can't leave because a) you want to make some money, b) but nobody really wants them and c) they don't want to go. The fuckup was done by handing out the extensions in the first place. Much like Bale got his extension in Madrid. If the vets are here and you can't shift them, all they'll do is poison everything once you glue them to the stands and play Barca B instead of them. While the club will lose money and you'll end up in mid-table. Hence you play them. Until they themselves are sick of things. Damage has been done a long time ago.

 

[serghei]

Goes both ways - veterans, in some ways, haven't done much to deserve termination and are still better than most of what's on offer. Players as experienced as Pique or Busquets aren't present everywhere, and if they are they cost upwards of 60M per player. Which is why the only sensible strategy is to make sure you scout the fuck out of fertile talent pools like Brazil or France. Barca ARE doing some of it, but not enough, because you're bringing in trophies that keep the numbers in an acceptable state and seemingly little priority is being ascribed to it.

Basically sometimes you just need to be ruthless and risky. Get rid of what's making you buckets of money and take a leap by enticing a manager and a few key names to a certain project. Look 3 to 5 to 8 years forward. This is what the club isn't doing. And it has fuckall to do with what manager alone you appoint, because absolutely anyone in Setien's position would have done the same if they were told that vets can't leave because a) you want to make some money, b) but nobody really wants them and c) they don't want to go. The fuckup was done by handing out the extensions in the first place. Much like Bale got his extension in Madrid. If the vets are here and you can't shift them, all they'll do is poison everything once you glue them to the stands and play Barca B instead of them. While the club will lose money and you'll end up in mid-table. Hence you play them. Until they themselves are sick of things. Damage has been done a long time ago.

The bolded part is true. The club has been successful in terms of titles. Which is why there was a tendency to keep the status quo. That stage is now almost over. Which is to say that patching things up and keeping the old core has seen its last legs. Was one horrible night of going out with a serious bang.

Yea, you need to be ruthless. Only thing I disagree with is the importance of manager. Top managers can't be told "x needs to play", or "you can't do y". Lucho for example benched Pique and Alba just like that. But he had balls. We have hired weak managers who don't have what it takes to really go against the vets.

 

[El Gato]

Yea, you need to be ruthless. Only thing I disagree with is the importance of manager. Top managers can't be told "x needs to play", or "you can't do y". Lucho for example benched Pique and Alba just like that. But he had balls. We have hired weak managers who don't have what it takes to really go against the vets.

You've missed the point. They're not saying 'x player needs to play'. If they are saying anything at all, they usually say 'well, if you don't like x, you bench him, but you gotta deal with the problems it causes and we cannot help because he doesn't want to go/nobody wants to buy at meaningful profit'. It makes no difference if a manager is strong or weak. If a player is dead set on his own importance making the atmosphere toxic in the long run, but you still might need him for rotation as you have no other options (Suarez would have been the example), then there's absolutely no point in benching him. You'd have to be deluded to think Klopp would come here and stick a senior, two or three in the stands and play some random kid to exercise authority. Repercussions come with that, these players stay in the team in the midst of an ongoing rift, and little good comes from making it a long term problem. Hence the only real solution is to come to an agreement with the board and the player WRT a sale. But your lot don't really want to go, nor the board wants them to go. So no point debating managers themselves making any change. It has to start with the higher up decision makers, otherwise every manager is powerless.

 

[serghei]

You've missed the point. They're not saying 'x player needs to play'. If they are saying anything at all, they usually say 'well, if you don't like x, you bench him, but you gotta deal with the problems it causes and we cannot help because he doesn't want to go/nobody wants to buy at meaningful profit'. It makes no difference if a manager is strong or weak. If a player is dead set on his own importance making the atmosphere toxic in the long run, but you still might need him for rotation as you have no other options (Suarez would have been the example), then there's absolutely no point in benching him. You'd have to be deluded to think Klopp would come here and stick a senior, two or three in the stands and play some random kid to exercise authority. Repercussions come with that, these players stay in the team in the midst of an ongoing rift, and little good comes from making it a long term problem. Hence the only real solution is to come to an agreement with the board and the player WRT a sale. But your lot don't really want to go, nor the board wants them to go. So no point debating managers themselves making any change. It has to start with the higher up decision makers, otherwise every manager is powerless.

It goes both ways. With a serious manager who takes no shit, causing problems ain't very smart. It's usually the bully situation. The players push more if they feel the manager is weak. But if you bring someone who takes no shit, the players will probably get more in line.

Manager has weapons of his own, that he can use. He's not as helpless as you make it. Again, Pique is one of the strongest in the locker-room, and when Lucho felt he wasn't focused, he benched his ass. Pique in the 2nd part of the season came back and turned into a top defender that season.

 

[serghei]

Players have a lot to lose as well. They want to play. If they get benched they won't like it. Problem is, since Lucho, nobody had the balls to bench the seniors when they perform badly.

 

[El Gato]

None of it matters for players who are in their largest contract ever and have won a lot. Playing doesn't mean much to anyone who isn't close to captaincy and has at least a shred of responsibility for the club going forward. Their thought process is geared towards ego preservation. If Pique were to be benched without a better option in the team, he'd just bide his time, get his check and wait until someone gets injured and a manager has to use him, or wait until results slump since there's no player that gets better results than he does. Analogous across positions where a vet doesn't accept rotation for a less experienced player.

Managers are mostly helpless. They can only hope to be on the same page as a responsible boardroom with a focus on the sporting project. If your board cares more about their tenure being studded with trophies, collecting which doesnt need much effort, then you're hopeless. You'd struggle to name one club with a shit board focused on names, celebrity status, loyalty bonuses etc that ever achieved anything good just because the coach was world class. Starts at the top as ever, you should stop arguing for this magic-wand theory.

 

[Richard.H]

Zidane freely benches whoever he fukin chooses and you are here claiming that the Barca seniors should play? Switch managers and I guarantee you Zidane is benching all the seniors except Messi and maybe Pique. He'd rather see the team grow with the youngsters than to rot with seniors.

 

[khaled_a_d]

So, you're basically surprised that in a club that is obviously catering to the old core, the young players don't look well? No shit, what do you expect to happen? The strategy of the club is basically keeping the status quo and tailoring the club, from tactics, to training sessions, to everything to appease the veterans.

I am saying you are confusing the causality.
Young players have failed to take over because they aren't good enough, not the other way around.

I made a long reply on Semedo thread, the club has already invested heavily in youth, probably more than any other time in the history of the club. They simply failed to sign the right players.
Gomes was supposed to take over in midfield, you think he was good enough and we failed him?
Paco was supposed to provide competition for Suarez, Digne was supposed to provide competition for Alba. They have failed to do so, not because the club cater veterans but because they are simply not good enough.


Same thing we see with Arthur, the guy got all the chances in the world and he still failed to be better player than when he first arrived. Playing same exact way he did when he was at Gremio.
It is more comforting for fans to put blame on attackers than to put it on him, when he clearly ignores multiple opportunities to make an better pass and prefer the safe one.


Dembele, Arthur, FDJ all got starting place or being first option from the bench within months of arrival (or almost immediately)

Sure, a tiny fraction of young talented players have the x factor, which is making them be an instant impact at any club, with any tactics, and any problems almost. Meaning they are THAT good. More or less, this is the standard to which you are holding the young players, and this is the standard they need to be in order to change anything at a club that is obviously moving in the opposite direction.

You became good/ great player by beating the odds. Not by being catered by the coach.
Xavi and Puyol has both developed tremendously during a team that was far worse, with bad if not worse coaching and in teams loaded with veterans too.
Puyol was once considered not good enough , by Koeman of all people, and we almost sold him to Betis. He stayed and fought for his place. Same for Roberto here, who got it way worse than it is for Arthur/FDJ. Non of those was Mpabbe or Neymar level of talent at young age.

We made Dembele 3rd most expensive player in the history, months later we made Coutinho take his place. We paid for a Neymar/Mpabbe level of impact and we didn't get anything in return. Everything reported that those players actually had great support within the club, they failed us for various reasons.

Let's try some BBZ type of projection.

You have various type of talented young players.

We have

1. Players who are talented but need nurturing, mentorship, they need a platform in which they will develop, and they need a manager to do it. This means they are not that supremely talented to make it regardless of these things being present. You have here a good portion of the Liverpool players (except they started to transition to category no. 2). Many such players on Madrid, Bayern, and even Barcelona.

Most of those players don't do their development at big clubs.
Salah done his development in Basel, Fiorentina & Roma. He was already world class before he joined Liverpool but needed that little extra push/ platform for superstardom, Same for Mane & VVD for example. Their FBs are the ones who has done their development in the club, and I will argue that TAA is arguably in category 2.

2. You have young superstars. Young Mbappe, young Ronaldo, young Messi, young Neymar, young Iniesta and so on. A select group of young players who basically are so rare that they will basically change any team they are part of. They simply have the X factor.

3. You have also the talented players who lack the mentality, the professionalism, to make the next step regardless of conditions from 1). Here you have basically someone like Quaresma, and players who were absolute wonders early on, but on the way they lost themselves.

Again, when you pay the price of category 3 to players of category 2, then this on board which further prove my point. We have done that with multiple players.

And you ignore the 4th type of players, the starters in 1st team. Those who can start for big club but won't be the Mpabbe/CR7 level of players.
FDJ is supposed to be that, Arthur was bought to be that, Semedo was supposed to be that. Surely none of those was category one as you are trying to portray.
When Umtiti was good enough, nothing prevented him from taking over one of the most popular players in the dressing room. He was no Mpabbe or CR7

 

[El Gato]

Zidane freely benches whoever he fukin chooses and you are here claiming that the Barca seniors should play? S

Didn't say that.

Switch managers and I guarantee you Zidane is benching all the seniors except Messi and maybe Pique. He'd rather see the team grow with the youngsters than to rot with seniors.

Not what evidence suggests. Nor is he a good coach, he's a manager, a guy who can do damage control, but it's yet to be seen whether he can actually improve a player that is rather raw. If he were to really go for growth, he'd sell several vets when he was back. In fact, he left BECAUSE Perez flat out refused to let him make such changes.
At Barca he wouldn't bench half the seniors if the replacements were to be levels below of what's in Barca's long term interest.

 

[khaled_a_d]

None of it matters for players who are in their largest contract ever and have won a lot. Playing doesn't mean much to anyone who isn't close to captaincy and has at least a shred of responsibility for the club going forward. Their thought process is geared towards ego preservation. If Pique were to be benched without a better option in the team, he'd just bide his time, get his check and wait until someone gets injured and a manager has to use him, or wait until results slump since there's no player that gets better results than he does. Analogous across positions where a vet doesn't accept rotation for a less experienced player.

Managers are mostly helpless. They can only hope to be on the same page as a responsible boardroom with a focus on the sporting project. If your board cares more about their tenure being studded with trophies, collecting which doesnt need much effort, then you're hopeless. You'd struggle to name one club with a shit board focused on names, celebrity status, loyalty bonuses etc that ever achieved anything good just because the coach was world class. Starts at the top as ever, you should stop arguing for this magic-wand theory.

This.

Zidane freely benches whoever he fukin chooses and you are here claiming that the Barca seniors should play? Switch managers and I guarantee you Zidane is benching all the seniors except Messi and maybe Pique. He'd rather see the team grow with the youngsters than to rot with seniors.

And the board will fire him once we no longer compete for Liga.

 

[KingLeo10]

It's not so much about benching/kicking seniors as it is about having their respect and thereby having tactical/rotational flexibility.

ZZ would command that. Pep commands that. Klopp commands that.

Even in their decline, a world class manager/actual authority figure would squeeze more out of the older players IMO. Not to mention better handle youth.

The only coaches Messi has respected were Rijkaard, Pep, and Lucho. All have a strong will and we won the CL with all 3. Rest are doormats/Messi fanboys.

 

[serghei]

I am saying you are confusing the causality.
Young players have failed to take over because they aren't good enough, not the other way around.

Absolutely not true. It's the other way around. Developing players is from the platform and the system to the individual. Why do you think Liverpool only started to be elite after Klopp came? Because the players don't develop themselves, only a very very tiny fraction do, the generational players. Most young players develop once a working platform has been established.

I made a long reply on Semedo thread, the club has already invested heavily in youth, probably more than any other time in the history of the club. They simply failed to sign the right players.
Gomes was supposed to take over in midfield, you think he was good enough and we failed him?
Paco was supposed to provide competition for Suarez, Digne was supposed to provide competition for Alba. They have failed to do so, not because the club cater veterans but because they are simply not good enough.


Same thing we see with Arthur, the guy got all the chances in the world and he still failed to be better player than when he first arrived. Playing same exact way he did when he was at Gremio.
It is more comforting for fans to put blame on attackers than to put it on him, when he clearly ignores multiple opportunities to make an better pass and prefer the safe one.


Dembele, Arthur, FDJ all got starting place or being first option from the bench within months of arrival (or almost immediately)

Again. You think if you sign the talent the work is done. That's just not true. That's the problem of the club as well. You bring talented players, but every decision in the team is going against them.

Vinicius from Madrid is a good example. He was funny at first, could not place a shot to save his life. People joked about him and his abysmal shooting. I guarantee you in 2-3 years if Zidane stays, nobody will joke about him.

You became good/ great player by beating the odds. Not by being catered by the coach.
Xavi and Puyol has both developed tremendously during a team that was far worse, with bad if not worse coaching and in teams loaded with veterans too.
Puyol was once considered not good enough , by Koeman of all people, and we almost sold him to Betis. He stayed and fought for his place. Same for Roberto here, who got it way worse than it is for Arthur/FDJ. Non of those was Mpabbe or Neymar level of talent at young age.

That's again not true, or at least very rarely true. The category of players you speak about is very very small. The club wanted to sell Xavi. Not even in 2008 did the club think Xavi was a great player. It took Pep to come and realize the player he had on his hands.

We made Dembele 3rd most expensive player in the history, months later we made Coutinho take his place. We paid for a Neymar/Mpabbe level of impact and we didn't get anything in return. Everything reported that those players actually had great support within the club, they failed us for various reasons.

That's besides the point. Dembele and Coutinho prices were inflated. Especially Dembele's. Teams knew we sat on 220+ millions and made us overpay.

Most of those players don't do their development at big clubs.
Salah done his development in Basel, Fiorentina & Roma. He was already world class before he joined Liverpool but needed that little extra push/ platform for superstardom, Same for Mane & VVD for example. Their FBs are the ones who has done their development in the club, and I will argue that TAA is arguably in category 2.

That's again, a reinterpretation of reality. Salah done some of his developing in Basel, Fiorentina and Roma (here he developed nicely). Flopped at Chelsea through no faults of his own (speaking about your beating the odds theory). No big headlines were made in Europe that Liverpool got Salah. The most important part of his development was at Liverpool. And again, here is where the platform makes its mark. Salah became a world class player under the working platform of Liverpool and the management of Klopp. Without Klopp and his system, without a team that was already starting to click well, maybe he would've flopped again, like at Chelsea.

Again, when you pay the price of category 3 to players of category 2, then this on board which further prove my point. We have done that with multiple players.

And you ignore the 4th type of players, the starters in 1st team. Those who can start for big club but won't be the Mpabbe/CR7 level of players.
FDJ is supposed to be that, Arthur was bought to be that, Semedo was supposed to be that. Surely none of those was category one as you are trying to portray.
When Umtiti was good enough, nothing prevented him from taking over one of the most popular players in the dressing room. He was no Mpabbe or CR7

Yes, we have indeed paid superstar prices for promising players. Mostly because of the Neymar money, because people knew we were staying on a mountain of money.

I'm not ignoring first team players. FJD is that. Arthur was bought to be developed into that. In the case of both, the club is doing absolutely nothing to make sure they have a chance of making it. Quite the opposite really.

 

[El Gato]

It's not so much about benching/kicking seniors as it is about having their respect and thereby having tactical/rotational flexibility.

ZZ would command that. Pep commands that. Klopp commands that.

Even in their decline, a world class manager/actual authority figure would squeeze more out of the older players IMO. Not to mention better handle youth.

It is, but there's no point talking about rotational flexibility as intention of the manager, if the board aren't in agreement and they don't give him what he requires to make that happen. Barca's board don't seem to submit to the manager's talent and ability judgement, because they prioritise the books they've crocked with shite salary ladders and catching up to freefall decline of dudes they gave the money to. Klopp would be hopeless facing such external issues completely unrelated to football. Not even mentioning the fact that managers don't start a project with a stable of old dudes. Pep kept 2 or 3? That's it.

+ success these guys have in environments at non-perennially winning sides is not comparable at all. Klopp wouldn't go anywhere where he'd get 2 years max to get a trophy.

 

[Kul_z]

Grow some balls. Put firpo in line up, dont start with rakitic-busi duo and dont start messi suarez griez attack. Put some pace. For fuck sake put vidal roberto in the middle. Bring barca b rb and play on the right with semedo full back and roberto rcm. At least they have lungs and pace to bring that right side alive.
At this point if frenkie was available id start with frenkie roberto vidal middlefield because none of the rest deserves the starting spot. At least you'd gain roberto and vidals hunger in play. Braithwaite or fati deserve to play before griez or suarez. Fuck them.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Let's clear things, I am talking about developing young players in relation to veterans and Setien.

First, veteran player are actually needed for the younger player development. Players like Deco/R10 helped Iniesta and Messi a lot. Puyol & Xavi helped the likes of Pique & Busquets.

Second, those young players need to be able to make an impact, not just handed minutes over veterans. Sure, sometimes you will need to clean up the roster but it is mostly on the players to force coaches to give them the chance.

Third, you need a system that favors player, and the only player right now I would argue the system doesn't help him is FDJ, mainly because Setien system is the worst fit for him. He plays way more vertical for Setien possession football so he can't play DM over Busquets. At RCM he shows he is totally sacrificed for Messi and looked like Raki in the anfield, during the classico. LCM is only place where he can play without looking atrocious.

Fourth, we have limited squad, that is the truth about it.
Setien can pick between limited number of misfits. And if he wants to win, which why he is hired, the veterans are still the best options. You can't really make an argument of best Barca line up with 4 U-25 players.

Fifth, if he pushed for Pjanic over Arthur for example, now we can talk about his impact in making the squad older. Although I doubt he has much say about it.

That's again, a reinterpretation of reality. Salah done some of his developing in Basel, Fiorentina and Roma (here he developed nicely). Flopped at Chelsea through no faults of his own (speaking about your beating the odds theory). No big headlines were made in Europe that Liverpool got Salah. The most important part of his development was at Liverpool. And again, here is where the platform makes its mark. Salah became a world class player under the working platform of Liverpool and the management of Klopp. Without Klopp and his system, without a team that was already starting to click well, maybe he would've flopped again, like at Chelsea.

That is an absolute nonsense to say at least. For someone followed Salah more than anyone else in this Forum since his days in Mokawlon (Contractors)
Salah was already a star player before joining Liverpool, there was big fuss about his signing in Europe, it was just soon eclipsed with Neymar deal.
He wasn't even young when he joined them, he moved there when he was 25.

He flopped at Chelsea because -just like Barca- they were too big of a stage for him. He needed to do his developing somewhere else with less pressure.
You are confusing things here, players in most cases need to take one last step at big clubs, at most two. Not just do most of the developing there. U
Player like Salah needed all those steps somewhere in smaller clubs. He took last step of stardom in Liverpool. But was already worldclass by the time he left Roma.
Same for Mane, Same for VVD who was already one of the top CBs before joining Liverpool.

Again. You think if you sign the talent the work is done. That's just not true. That's the problem of the club as well. You bring talented players, but every decision in the team is going against them.

Choosing the right players is mandatory for anything to work. Without it no work will ever be successful. Pep failed to make a thing of players like Bojan, didn't even gave Dos Santos a shot.

Sure, you need great decision making afterwards. but those players need to be accountable too.

There is absolutely no proof that our players are victimes, how many left the club and proved to be world class?

Vinicius from Madrid is a good example. He was funny at first, could not place a shot to save his life. People joked about him and his abysmal shooting. I guarantee you in 2-3 years if Zidane stays, nobody will joke about him.

He surely is a great example., Vinicius got his chances when RM had nothing to lose while in total chaos. Sure when/if we hit this point we will need to do the same. But we are not there yet. And he didn't prevent the club from signing 29 years old Hazard who plays his position.

That's again not true, or at least very rarely true. The category of players you speak about is very very small. The club wanted to sell Xavi. Not even in 2008 did the club think Xavi was a great player. It took Pep to come and realize the player he had on his hands.

The club considered a big offer for Xavi in 2008, people are making a big fuss about this bs. And sure, it would have been a wrong decision.

And again, those players are surely the majority. That is the truth. Most big clubs don't put raw talents in their 1st team suddenly. It only happens during total rebuild, awfully bad season or with special talents. Very rarely it is none of those.