Real Madrid (old thread)

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Beast

The Observer
the age he joined in is enough to claim him a youth player through & through..
do you think Puyol is not a Cantera player?

According to the UEFA, for a player to be considered HOMEGROWN, they must play for inferior divisions for over two years BEFORE turning 17.

That's if he left the club not promoted to the first team ...duh !!!

and Homegrown is a different meaning altogether
 

Beast

The Observer
Pellegrini struggling to make Madrid click
Reuters - 2 hours ago



MADRID - Real Madrid striker Karim Benzema has criticised the team's attacking play, increasing the pressure on coach Manuel Pellegrini who is struggling to make his expensive squad click.

The French forward was speaking after Real let slip a 1-0 lead at the Bernabeu to lose 3-2 to AC Milan in the Champions League on Wednesday.

"Our problem is that we don't do what we practise in training," Benzema was quoted as saying in Spanish media on Thursday.

"In training we look to open up the wings, to get behind the defence.

"But in games we don't manage to spread the game to the flanks. We all get in each other's way as we try to play through the middle."

Spanish newspapers agreed with Benzema's analysis as they bemoaned the continuing lack of fluency in Real Madrid's play and their failure to press home the advantage having taken an early lead against Milan.

Despite spending around 250 million euros on the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo, who is out injured, Kaka, Benzema and Xabi Alonso, Real are struggling to open up defences in the big games as happened last season under Bernd Schuster and Juande Ramos.

"October is advancing and Pellegrini is exactly where he was (when he started). At kilometre zero," sports daily AS wrote.

Marca said: "Real continued in their uncomfortable search for a plan. The team had its moments, but later lapsed into imprecision and melancholy."

Real coach Pellegrini was on the back foot in the post-match news conference and again called for patience.

"I'm not particularly concerned to have lost to Sevilla and Milan, the most important teams we have played so far, because they are developed sides that have been playing together for some time," he said.

"This season we have had a few poor minutes but too much is being made of these. For the most part we have played well. The results have been good and we are improving.

"We have a lot of work still to do to improve on an individual and collective level."

Real's next match is away to Sporting Gijon in La Liga on Saturday.
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sadly they are right atm, Manu must fix this and show some balls

raul is a Real canterano like puyol is a Barca canterano. he's not a full-on one but he learned a lot from his time there and has grown to become a symbol of the club.

I have two different levels of canterano:

canterano, which is anyone who has come through the youth system for any amount of time (because they all learn something from their time with us). they tend to have joined in their mid to late teens, though. so, puyol and pedro. also these are the wenger type of canterano.

and la masia. which is a player who has been raised through the youth teams. so, xavi, iniesta, valdés, messi.

obviously the latter is a more prestigious category but that doesn't take everything away from the former.

Check again...
Neither Valdes nor Iniesta apply
the list will be down to Xavi

Messi spent 5 years in Argentina youth clubs
 

Metaphysical

Bomb Dropper
raul is a Real canterano like puyol is a Barca canterano. he's not a full-on one but he learned a lot from his time there and has grown to become a symbol of the club.

I have two different levels of canterano:

canterano, which is anyone who has come through the youth system for any amount of time (because they all learn something from their time with us). they tend to have joined in their mid to late teens, though. so, puyol, busquets, and pedro. also these are the wenger type of canterano.

and la masia. which is a player who has been raised through the youth teams. so, xavi, iniesta, valdés and messi.

(the labels are barca-centic, but other top-teams barely have any of the latter kind so it's no biggie).

obviously the latter is a more prestigious category but that doesn't take everything away from the former.

Check again...
Neither Valdes nor Iniesta apply
the list will be down to Xavi

Messi spent 5 years in Argentina youth clubs

valdes joined us in 1992 initially but had to leave for family reasons. he came back when he turned 17 and spent time in la masia. he counts.

iniesta joined us aged 12. he counts.

and of course messi spent time in argentine youth clubs. he joined us aged 13, you don't start playing football at aged 13, lol. he counts.

it's not "we were their first club" its' that they've been with us for longer and were signed as early teens and spent nearly all of their crucial development time with us.

(the type of player like xavi, guardiola, casillas and scholes are so rare there's no point even having a category for them).
 

Beast

The Observer
All played for another teams who discovered them (including Valdes )
in my book they are all your Cantera , same way for Raul & others maybe not from CA & GVT point of view ..
which is back to the paradox question , is Cesc an Arsenal product or Barca product ? who take the credit
 

Metaphysical

Bomb Dropper
we do.

again, nearly everyone is discovered at some point. it's extremely rare for someone to have spent their entire footballing life at one of the big clubs.

so I have the two categories:

the weak cantera, and the strong cantera - if you will.

cesc is an arsenal weak cantera, but he's a barca strong cantera.

the pure cantera (xavi, bojan, etc.) are incredibly rare. the fact that we have two in our first-team squad is brilliant.
 

Beast

The Observer
Agree with you Meta , baring in mind youth players usually join the neighborhood clubs due to distance..etc so it's extremely rare to find much talents in one area joining a single club .
 

Metaphysical

Bomb Dropper
Agree with you Meta , baring in mind youth players usually join the neighborhood clubs due to distance..etc so it's extremely rare to find much talents in one area joining a single club .

agreed.

I came up with the weak/strong cantera thing when me and adam had a debate about pedro's status as a canterano.
 

Beast

The Observer
Somehow i think the reason Michael Laudrup refused Atletico Madrid offer was due to a last minute call from Valdano






watch that space

RIP Senor Felix Perez Socio number " 1 " in the club , died at the age of 99 .
Felix Perez has witnessed the entire trophy cabinet for Real Madrid all those 31 league titles,9 CL trophies..etc
he was given 3 honor badges by the club before and an official delegate from the club will be attending the funeral of the oldest Madrid member ..
 

Cule Angles

Visca el filòsof!
The old three loss rule hey Beast? Could it be that Laudrup is on standby just in case Pellegrini is relieved of his duties in the next couple of weeks?
 

Nándor

New member
several months have passed by now and apart from the results in general, the gameplay is still not improving that much. what are your opinions on why the team doesn't click and what do you think are the problems pérez, valdano & pellegrini have to work on/sort out...DESPITE THE NEED OF MORE TIME

my point of view:

- lots of players that are just not up to the high standarts that are required when playing for a team that aims as high as real madrid or no longer up for it to play on a constant high level (due to personality or advanced age). like gago, marcelo, drenthe, benzema (to a certain extend), garay, VDV, guti, ruud.
with regards to that, emotional and personal feelings are left aside!!! cause i do like ruud (for instance) a lot, however...he occupies a squad place, thus blocking others like negredo and he couln't be used and can't be used due to injury.

- lack of (true) wingers and wingplay...only CR & granero can be labeled as wingers. after selling robben and not getting ribéry, a lfet winger is very much missed.

- questionable use of some players, like CR on the left wing and kaká as fake winger (left or right). that at least brings up the question wether pellegrini gets the best out of these players. the best players are useless when not used propperly.

- some players are still underperforming and suffer from adaption. xabi alonso has to be named here first, but also kaká to a certain extend. these players desperatly need more time, better said, more routine by playing. but i have no doubt they will come good in a few months

- the attack is a shame in terms of being a thread. 4 strikers on paper but due to loyalty or being unable to offload in the first place and bad luck later, ruud doesn't really count, which leaves real with only 3 strikers. one is benzema...despite the facts (which COULD be improved in time), that he struggels to become a part of the game, doesn't improve neither raul nore higuain upfront, has no connection with raul at all, doesn't provide goals etc., the basic problem is his attitude. he's a lazy waste of space!!! i really can't see how he provides the SPEED real were looking for when even raul looks faster on the pitch. his movements are rare and when he moves you have the feeling he's only moving in order to keep the blood pumping so that he won't freeze. higuain was dynamite last season, but lacks minutes this season in order to continue like last season. raul...well, raul. at least he provides goals and plays with passion. he basically was the only one against milan who showed some fighting spirit.

- a certain lack of creativity from the midfield, that AS used in order to call for cesc fábregas. however, one has to wonder, why is there lack of creativity from the midfield when you have a playmaker like kaká??? wrong system??? bad use of kaká (as fake winger)??? or both??? claiming fábregas will sort this out is way too simple IMO.

- the LB spot...marcelo & drenthe are just not up to it defensively. however, in order to have a balance one has to leave and be replaced with a defensive minded LB. the solution is not arbeloa IMO and it seems neither in pellegrinis...

that'll have to do for now. i gotta go now. but to sum my opinion up: the basic factor is without a doubt more time. however, that time must be used propperly by the team, management and the coach. the squad is far from being "ready for big things", not to meantion from being finished. the team isn't balanced in terms of qualaty and i believe we'll see another buisy summer in terms of transfer actions. maybe even one or two signings/movements in the winter.
i gave this new team time till january/february before they start putting in great performances on a constant level. i hope they'll use the time till then to improve.

what are your opinions/analyses/thoughts???
 

Poor_Sunyol

In Lucho we trust!
It's simple, your system sucks. Your wingbacks are too positionally naive, your two pivots in midfield don't get any help from the more advanced players and up front everyone is playing for themselves as they are trying to make a name for themselves (apart from Raul).

The problem Pelegrini faces is two fold, firstly he has many new players who have joined for big fee's and who are under a lot of pressure to perform and they are under the constant media spotlight, it does take time (that Pellegrini does not have and won't be given) to adapt to a new environment.

Secondly, he isn't playing the system he wants to play because he is not allowed to. This project is based on economic and marketing values, not sporting ones so he has to play square pegs in round holes. Perez will not allow him to drop certain players like he could at Villareal. His mentality will be, yes they need time to adapt, by playing them all the time they will adapt more quickly and in reality we need to sell shirts.

Madrid need players that actually love the club. Players who have been there for a long time and would die for the cause. You just keep buying people and throwing your cantera away on the pretence that you will buy them back.
 

Beast

The Observer
The old three loss rule hey Beast? Could it be that Laudrup is on standby just in case Pellegrini is relieved of his duties in the next couple of weeks?
That's my line of thought CA, Michael has the ingredients Real require

1- attacking play
2- great experience as a player on a highest level and coached by some of the best.
3- SMART .. and i admired how he refused all offers from Spain and stayed for a year doing nothing but taking notes and watching the liga before taking over Getafe.
4- despite his short stay @ Real he know how it works on the inside (basically the same as his time in Barca ) .

Laudrup preferred formation is 4-2-3-1 and he & Blanc are my dream hiring ..have to say i'm deeply disappointed in Manu
several months have passed by now and apart from the results in general, the gameplay is still not improving that much. what are your opinions on why the team doesn't click and what do you think are the problems pérez, valdano & pellegrini have to work on/sort out...DESPITE THE NEED OF MORE TIME

my point of view:

- lots of players that are just not up to the high standarts that are required when playing for a team that aims as high as real madrid or no longer up for it to play on a constant high level (due to personality or advanced age). like gago, marcelo, drenthe, benzema (to a certain extend), garay, VDV, guti, ruud.
with regards to that, emotional and personal feelings are left aside!!! cause i do like ruud (for instance) a lot, however...he occupies a squad place, thus blocking others like negredo and he couln't be used and can't be used due to injury.

- lack of (true) wingers and wingplay...only CR & granero can be labeled as wingers. after selling robben and not getting ribéry, a lfet winger is very much missed.

- questionable use of some players, like CR on the left wing and kaká as fake winger (left or right). that at least brings up the question wether pellegrini gets the best out of these players. the best players are useless when not used propperly.

- some players are still underperforming and suffer from adaption. xabi alonso has to be named here first, but also kaká to a certain extend. these players desperatly need more time, better said, more routine by playing. but i have no doubt they will come good in a few months

- the attack is a shame in terms of being a thread. 4 strikers on paper but due to loyalty or being unable to offload in the first place and bad luck later, ruud doesn't really count, which leaves real with only 3 strikers. one is benzema...despite the facts (which COULD be improved in time), that he struggels to become a part of the game, doesn't improve neither raul nore higuain upfront, has no connection with raul at all, doesn't provide goals etc., the basic problem is his attitude. he's a lazy waste of space!!! i really can't see how he provides the SPEED real were looking for when even raul looks faster on the pitch. his movements are rare and when he moves you have the feeling he's only moving in order to keep the blood pumping so that he won't freeze. higuain was dynamite last season, but lacks minutes this season in order to continue like last season. raul...well, raul. at least he provides goals and plays with passion. he basically was the only one against milan who showed some fighting spirit.

- a certain lack of creativity from the midfield, that AS used in order to call for cesc fábregas. however, one has to wonder, why is there lack of creativity from the midfield when you have a playmaker like kaká??? wrong system??? bad use of kaká (as fake winger)??? or both??? claiming fábregas will sort this out is way too simple IMO.

- the LB spot...marcelo & drenthe are just not up to it defensively. however, in order to have a balance one has to leave and be replaced with a defensive minded LB. the solution is not arbeloa IMO and it seems neither in pellegrinis...

that'll have to do for now. i gotta go now. but to sum my opinion up: the basic factor is without a doubt more time. however, that time must be used propperly by the team, management and the coach. the squad is far from being "ready for big things", not to meantion from being finished. the team isn't balanced in terms of qualaty and i believe we'll see another buisy summer in terms of transfer actions. maybe even one or two signings/movements in the winter.
i gave this new team time till january/february before they start putting in great performances on a constant level. i hope they'll use the time till then to improve.

what are your opinions/analyses/thoughts???

this is what i wrote in Milan-Real game thread

Tactically there was many mistakes highlighted by a scene in the second half where Kaka was charging towards Milan goal and kept waving with his hand for Marcelo or someone to go to the left side .
all potential playmakers kept standing in/around the same area creating little off the ball movement mostly player standing waiting for the ball to arrive to their feet .
If this game wasn't what it is Manu could have left the club last night after a stormy meeting with Perez , i'm all for giving the coach time but i do need to feel a little difference tactically even gradually but so far it seems a whole lot of chaos and players don't really know what they are supposed to do
As an upgrade the players already upgraded compared to last year , tactically Ramos had more clear ideas ( even if it's one idea 4-4-2 ) for the players to understand or digest .

the 4-2-2-2 remains an abstract for our squad as long as no genuine effort is made for them to know their roles i said before relying on one players is very dangerous and i maintain the same stance whether his name is CR or Messi , u can't give free role to 2 players like this without showing them where to run or teach the other 8 outfield players where to go & what to do when Kaka has the ball .

I think Manuel Pellegerini need to step up for the role (last night result is irrelevant but i'm talking from a tactical aspect through out the month & half of official games ) otherwise we are relying on individuality not team/tactical side of the game which will still be boring to watch and easier to beat from other teams perspective.

I'm reading Laudrup could take over Atletico today.. sad to know since he was my man fr the job just in case Manuel can't pull his hand out of his ass in the next 3 month
he will be given enough time but seriously people need to see a little difference on the pitch cause so far we are not judging him fully which is good considering it's Perez regime

It's simple, your system sucks. Your wingbacks are too positionally naive, your two pivots in midfield don't get any help from the more advanced players and up front everyone is playing for themselves as they are trying to make a name for themselves (apart from Raul).

The problem Pelegrini faces is two fold, firstly he has many new players who have joined for big fee's and who are under a lot of pressure to perform and they are under the constant media spotlight, it does take time (that Pellegrini does not have and won't be given) to adapt to a new environment.

Secondly, he isn't playing the system he wants to play because he is not allowed to. This project is based on economic and marketing values, not sporting ones so he has to play square pegs in round holes. Perez will not allow him to drop certain players like he could at Villareal. His mentality will be, yes they need time to adapt, by playing them all the time they will adapt more quickly and in reality we need to sell shirts.

Madrid need players that actually love the club. Players who have been there for a long time and would die for the cause. You just keep buying people and throwing your cantera away on the pretence that you will buy them back.

u make some valuable points and in general i agree but i personally hold Manu responsible for the choice of formation .
there is gazillion formation where he can use the "big signings " and still the team will have a shape considering Raul is expendable (a problem those before him didn't suffer ) .
in a heart beat 4-2-3-1 can fit the new players with Xab-Diarra behind CR-Kaka-Granero and Benzema upfront .. even Raul & Higuain can and did play on the wings under several managers before

however he did play this way(4-2-2-2 ) with Villarreal so it's actually his choice the problem is the players are finding it hard to understand what they are required to do and (according to Benzema ) there is a difference between what they do in training and what they do on the pitch

He is given good time and patience so far but he can't deliver a minimum improvement ..
i like & respect Pellegrini and i was so excited about the choice but so far it's another disappointment tactically .. i fear i was wrong in my opinion in him (like Ramos )
there is no shame in switching to a normal formation to utilize the best of the players but he is being stubborn sticking to his 4-2-2-2 which proved too hard for the squad to understand
the best games Real played in pre -season was 4-2-3-1 and he should take note and soon
 

Beast

The Observer
well magic box (south american thingy ? ) or not it remains to be seen

Anyhow i forgot to add we have no LB problem... we have a midfield problem
we tried the "Defensive " lb in Heinze and still failed, Marcelo is an attacking full back like Evra and others and he do pretty well with Brazil without the weaknesses shown with Real so think about it is it Marcelo problem or the midfield who fail to provide cover for the attacking full back ..
All the other LB have the exact same tendencies (Evra,Clichy , Vargas ) ..

Xabi needs to step up or leave the job for Diarra-Lass
 
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