Thiago Silva

[TornAndFrayed]

Not a single french club has any legit european legacy to begin with.

1)PSG is a young club and that may induce people into thinking that the club has no identity, but that's just wrong.
Pre qatari PSG had a short but rich history, with lots of tumultuous stuff going on, and is the only Parisian top club in a city of over 10 million people. Everyone there knows the motto, the stadium name, and most importantly most parisians root for psg by default. How many cities, let alone metropolis, enjoy that kind of natural exposure ?

And international following builds itself with money. That just undeniable. Sad (i don't support psg at all) but undeniable.

2) The Uefa coefficient is far from the full picture. Remember it only takes into account european results. Top clubs results. Spain would be ranked 1st in the UEFA rankings even if la liga consisted of Barça, RM, Atletico and 17 juvenil teams. There is just no good way of comparing leagues besides some general observations like more or less tactical, technical, defensive, etc.
When agents talk, they often mention the top 5 leagues, and they mean France, not Portugal. Also L1 was ranked 2nd for years in the early nineties and i don't think that automatically means it was the second best league then.

Anyway. The way I see it, la liga is by far the hardest league to win, BPL is almost always hotly contested and great atmosphere, Bundesliga is a one horse-race with smarter football than BPL, Serie A is defensive but highly varied in terms of tactics, Ligue 1 is basically the same these days although top clubs like psg or Lyon are actually pushing away from this.

Oh, and I don't know more than five teams who have a better shot at the cl than PSG has, though of course TS should have come here

 

[Leo_Messi]

Not a single french club has any legit european legacy to begin with.

1)PSG is a young club and that may induce people into thinking that the club has no identity, but that's just wrong.
Pre qatari PSG had a short but rich history, with lots of tumultuous stuff going on, and is the only Parisian top club in a city of over 10 million people. Everyone there knows the motto, the stadium name, and most importantly most parisians root for psg by default. How many cities, let alone metropolis, enjoy that kind of natural exposure ?

And international following builds itself with money. That just undeniable. Sad (i don't support psg at all) but undeniable.

2) The Uefa coefficient is far from the full picture. Remember it only takes into account european results. Top clubs results. Spain would be ranked 1st in the UEFA rankings even if la liga consisted of Barça, RM, Atletico and 17 juvenil teams. There is just no good way of comparing leagues besides some general observations like more or less tactical, technical, defensive, etc.
When agents talk, they often mention the top 5 leagues, and they mean France, not Portugal. Also L1 was ranked 2nd for years in the early nineties and i don't think that automatically means it was the second best league then.

Anyway. The way I see it, la liga is by far the hardest league to win, BPL is almost always hotly contested and great atmosphere, Bundesliga is a one horse-race with smarter football than BPL, Serie A is defensive but highly varied in terms of tactics, Ligue 1 is basically the same these days although top clubs like psg or Lyon are actually pushing away from this.

Oh, and I don't know more than five teams who have a better shot at the cl than PSG has, though of course TS should have come here

I would argue that Marseille and Stade de Reims have.

Every single club has an identity. I never claimed that PSG does not have an identity. What I objected to was Juvens calling them "one of the biggest clubs" out there which is false other than in terms of revenue which is largely (if not solely) due to the Qatari oil money. Just like the case is with Man City and their Emirati oil money.

I already wrote that PSG is a big club in France. The second biggest after Marseille. But internationally they are nowhere near the traditional/historic European top clubs. Also my impression is that most Parisiens do not care much about football hence Paris (10 million big metropolis) only having 1 relevant team. Compare that to London for instance and it becomes truly laughable.

That's false as the UEFA coefficient list also includes the UEFA Europa League. Basically it's the best measurement that we have currently. All the rest is speculation and economics.

I have rarely heard the label "the top 5 leagues" but the label "top 4 leagues" (La Liga, EPL, Serie A and Bundesliga) I have heard very often.

If you ask me then I don't see PSG winning the CL in the foreseeable future.

My point is that the only reason why Thiago Silva and a few other players are playing for PSG is due to the Qatari oil money. Nothing else.

 

[Jair Ventura]

As I wrote already and as every knowledgeable football fan knows then PSG are far from being a leading club in any category other than oil money and revenue. PSG is a small club in terms of history, trophies won and prestige. Their fan-base outside of France is also small. The Qatari oil money has enabled them to become relevant in France and somewhat in Europe (so far without any success) but that does not make them "one of the largest clubs".

T&F already rebutted most of this, so I'll just add this one thing: suggesting that there's "been no success" for a club that has reached the final 8 of the UCL three times in the three years since investments began is silly. Becoming a top club is a gradual process, to expect a UCL title so soon into their project is unreasonable. It'd be nice, but it isn't necessary for the club and project to be deemed a successful to this point.

No, Ligue 1 has not more quality than Serie A nor is it a better league. According to the UEFA coefficient list then Ligue 1 is merely the 6th best league in Europe.

Again, T&F already addressed the flaws in this argumentation as well, so I'll only add a couple of points:

- UEFA Coefficients don't really say much about the quality of league top to bottom, but the top clubs of each respective league. They also don't say much about the current state of a league(EPL) or club(Dortmund, United) as it includes the previous 5 years of continental performance into the equation. In the case of PSG and Monaco, both projects are younger than the allotted time frame of the coefficient, making it relatively useless in any analysis of their current quality. Same applies to their league.

- Relative to Serie A, Ligue 1 offers more competition between clubs, features clubs with stronger finances, and is markedly stronger in terms of youth development. These things, to me, are more appropriate to look at when analyzing the strength of a league.

Comparable to EPL and Bundesliga? Nice joke.

I don't think Arsenal nor Chelsea supporters find the joke very funny. As for the Bundesliga? It's contending with Serie A as the least competitive of the big 5 leagues. It's strength, apart from Bayern, is relatively mediocre now that Dortmund has fallen out of grace. Wolfsburg, the 2nd place club of their championship, is lead by a young talent who struggled to find a place at Chelsea and were recently knocked out of continental play in embarrassing fashion by a Napoli side that isn't close to being a top club.

The EPL? Tactically and technically, it is the poorest of all the top leagues. This is also true in terms of their ability to scout, develop, and promote local talent to senior sides. It's strength lies purely in its ability to generate revenue and therefore compete on the transfer market.

Yes and this season the Portuguese league had 1 team in the quarter-finals while England had zero. Based on your logic this makes the Portuguese league better than the EPL.

This is a straw man that has nothing to do what I said. I pointed out their being two Ligue 1 clubs that reached the quarters not to say that automatically made the league stronger than it's peers, but to contradict the notion that the league is weak or "secondary".

Look at UEFA's coefficient list if you want to get the full picture.

I think you'd be better served watching games, following teams and players through statical databases, and paying attention to the transfer market. Your picture would be much more clear if you did.

Ligue 1 is not a secondary league compared to the Dutch, Belgian, Ukrainian, Russian etc. but it's nowhere near the level of the big 4. Historically all the best players and clubs used to be/are still based in those 4 major European leagues.

But we aren't speaking in a historical context, we're discussing the now. And today, Ligue 1 has more notable players in Zlatan, Silva, Luiz, Cavani, Veratti, Falcao, Berbatov, Ayew, etc, than Serie A - Pogba, Tevez, Pirlo, Vidal, and arguably the Bundesliga - Robben, Ribery, Neuer, Hummels, Reus, De Bruyne.

Anyway the point that was made is obviously that it's a shame that Thiago Silva is wasting his career in an inferior league when players like him should be testing themselves in the best of leagues every weekend and be fighting for the CL.

But, Silva is fighting for the UCL, and this seasons French championship may be the most competitive he's ever been apart of? You should concern yourself with something that hasn't already materialized.

 

[Leo_Messi]

I don't bother reading your post. The fact is that PSG is nowhere near being one of the "largest clubs in the world" as you claimed other than in terms of Qatari oil money and in terms of revenues that are solely due to that same Qatari oil money. Simple as that.

Ligue 1 is not comparable with the top 4 European leagues (La Liga, EPL, Bundesliga and Serie A). Neither historically, in terms of the current UEFA coefficient list or in terms of actual level overall.

The UEFA coefficient list is still the best measurement that exists when comparing leagues. Not only that it's the official measurement.

Italian teams have been superior in Europe this season compared to the French ones. Almost twice as good actually.

I am willing to bet 1000 dollars with you that PSG is not going to win the CL in the foreseeable future (next 5 years).

Also the only reason why PSG have been able to buy all those players is due to Qatari oil money. Nothing else. None of those players ever dreamt of playing for PSG - "one of the biggest clubs in the world" or in the "mighty" Ligue 1.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

I objected to was Juvens calling them "one of the biggest clubs" out there which is false other than in terms of revenue which is largely (if not solely) due to the Qatari oil money. Just like the case is with Man City and their Emirati oil money.

But as you said yourself, PSG is and has been the only top club in Paris for decades.
It has pretty much always been the biggest and most mediatic club along with Marseille and Lyon since the 2000's.
Now they have a tons of monies. And an excellent squad. There are maybe six clubs out there that have superior squads, no more.
Hence, one of the biggest club, surely.

That's false as the UEFA coefficient list also includes the UEFA Europa League. Basically it's the best measurement that we have currently. All the rest is speculation and economics.

I know, and I'm saying precisely that the uefa rankings can't possibly provide an accurate basis for comparing leagues, as it only takes into account 5-7 teams each season from each league. Pointless to compare leagues this way, clearly.

If you ask me then I don't see PSG winning the CL in the foreseeable future.

Maybe, but they are a serious contender, no one will be favorite against them save for Barça Bayern Real.

My point is that the only reason why Thiago Silva and a few other players are playing for PSG is due to the Qatari oil money. Nothing else.

Well you made some other points lol but I'll agree to that last one

 

[Leo_Messi]

But as you said yourself, PSG is and has been the only top club in Paris for decades.
It has pretty much always been the biggest and most mediatic club along with Marseille and Lyon since the 2000's.
Now they have a tons of monies. And an excellent squad. There are maybe six clubs out there that have superior squads, no more.
Hence, one of the biggest club, surely.



I know, and I'm saying precisely that the uefa rankings can't possibly provide an accurate basis for comparing leagues, as it only takes into account 5-7 teams each season from each league. Pointless to compare leagues this way, clearly.



Maybe, but they are a serious contender, no one will be favorite against them save for Barça Bayern Real.



Well you made some other points lol but I'll agree to that last one

All of that (meaning Qatari oil money, support in France alone mostly and a squad financed by Qatari oil money) is not enough to be labelled as "one of the largest clubs in the world". Not at all actually. History, actual achievements (trophies won), fanbase, prestige etc. are much more important parameters. By that virtue Man City are also "one of the largest clubs in the world" which is a laughable claim.

That's over 1/3 of every league. That's a pretty damn good indicator of the strength of a league. It's no coincidence either that La Liga, EPL, Serie A and the Bundesliga have dominated those coefficient rankings since forever. It correspondents very well with the reality and results on the ground. Also nobody here is going to convince me that the bottom clubs in Ligue 1 are superior to their equivalents in Spain, England, Germany and Italy.

Them being a "serious" CL contender (not a single CL-semifinal in 4 seasons) does not turn them into "one of the biggest clubs in the world" in my universe.

All I am saying, let's wait for at least a few more years for such bombastic claims. Nobody outside of deluded PSG fans take such claims seriously.

 

[Jair Ventura]

Every single club has an identity. I never claimed that PSG does not have an identity. What I objected to was Juvens calling them "one of the biggest clubs" out there which is false other than in terms of revenue which is largely (if not solely) due to the Qatari oil money. Just like the case is with Man City and their Emirati oil money.

Indeed. Some clubs identity entail mountains of debt as is the case with Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Manchester United. Odd that supporters of said clubs would worry themselves so fervently with the finances of contemporaries when their own teams(s) have needed plenty of favors, fair or otherwise, in order to achieve their current stature.

I already wrote that PSG is a big club in France. The second biggest after Marseille. But internationally they are nowhere near the traditional/historic European top clubs

PSG has already supplanted Marseille as the most popular club in France, and you keeping mentioning "tradition" and "history" as if its relevant to the discussion, it's not. Neither Atletico nor Dortmund are "historical" powerhouses, but they're certainly two of the bigger clubs internationally today. "Tradition" hasn't saved Manchester United and Liverpool from being supplanted by Chelsea and Man City in the EPL or continentally, and so on.

Also my impression is that most Parisiens do not care much about football hence Paris (10 million big metropolis) only having 1 relevant team. Compare that to London for instance and it becomes truly laughable.

This just means supporters in Paris aren't split between multiple clubs, which is beneficial for PSG. As for Parisians, the French, and their dedication to football? The fact that everyone including the Spanish recruit and buy French players at a rate greater than any other says enough.

If you ask me then I don't see PSG winning the CL in the foreseeable future.

So is true for most clubs, large and small, prominent or obscure. Doesn't mean the project in Paris hasn't been successful to date.

My point is that the only reason why Thiago Silva and a few other players are playing for PSG is due to the Qatari oil money. Nothing else.

And you're upset they didn't chose to play for clubs like RM and Barca due to their private banking money.

 

[Jair Ventura]

I don't bother reading your post.

Then end the discussion and move along. Good luck after Messi and with shedding all that debt.

 

[DonAK]

Barcelona will continue to live and be among the elite after Messi like before him. PSG are fucked if Qatar decides to sell out.

 

[KingMessi]

Then end the discussion and move along. Good luck after Messi and with shedding all that debt.

Sigh...

 

[TornAndFrayed]

All of that (meaning Qatari oil money, support in France alone mostly and a squad financed by Qatari oil money) is not enough to be labelled as "one of the largest clubs in the world". Not at all actually. History, actual achievements (trophies won), fanbase, prestige etc. are much more important parameters. By that virtue Man City are also "one of the largest clubs in the world" which is a laughable claim.

You are ignoring the most important factor, which is the state of the current team, which I talked about. So if you're picky with words let's say PSG ranks somewhere from 4th to 7th best team in Europe, same for attractiveness (money + status), but yea the club has no history in Europe, but everyone freaking knows that no ? And yes whether you like it or not Man City is definitely one of the largest clubs in Europe, how can you deny that ? It's a question of power, not morals.

That's over 1/3 of every league. That's a pretty damn good indicator of the strength of a league. It's no coincidence either that La Liga, EPL, Serie A and the Bundesliga have dominated those coefficient rankings since forever.

That's a shit indicator. The fact that it is the "best" and only one tells a lot more about how incomparable the leagues are. I've already said that.
Look, if we were to judge a team based on 3 or 4 players from starting eleven, this current barça would be ranked best team in europe by a million miles.

Also already said that France was ranked second for many years in a row in the nineties. And I would laugh at someone attempting to use this to praise the Ligue 1.

 

[Vlom]

Ligue 1 has more quality than Serie A and is comparable to the EPL and Bundesliga. It produces and plays more home grown talent while manufacturing more prospects for foreign clubs than any of the three. This season Ligue 1 featured more clubs in the quarters of the UCL(2) than Serie A(1), Bundesliga(1), and the EPL(0).

Number of champions league for all the Ligue 1 teams combined >>> (and it belongs to Marseille).

Lol, just read the rest of the posts in between.. Juvens my friends; you suffer from what we call chauvinisme don't let the crazy PSG propaganda get to your head, they still have a loooooooooooooooong way to go before becomming one of the largest club in football history, because they have none (history), as much as the storyline would like to convince us, PSG started being the serious contender it is 3 or 4yrs ago.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Number of champions league for all the Ligue 1 teams combined >>>

Ligue 1 is the best league in the world while PSG is the biggest club in the world because some Qatari Bedouins bought them 4 years ago and because they have reached the CL quarterfinals 3 times in a row! They also have the most fans in Paris - a city famous for its many leading football clubs.

Then end the discussion and move along. Good luck after Messi and with shedding all that debt.

Please continue entertaining me.

 

[Jair Ventura]

All of that (meaning Qatari oil money, support in France alone mostly and a squad financed by Qatari oil money) is not enough to be labelled as "one of the largest clubs in the world".

We could discuss the quality of the club, you know, that which actually defines "top" in the context we're speaking, but you'd rather bring up and discuss "Qatari oil money" for whatever reason.

By that virtue Man City are also "one of the largest clubs in the world" which is a laughable claim.

That virtue is irrelevant, which City has proved by winning two of the last three EPL titles. Even in poor form and struggling they sit a single point behind United for the last UCL spot in the EPL. Chelsea, another team with no "history or prestige" is running away with the league. Shame that all of United's historical prominence can't earn them a league title.

That's over 1/3 of every league.

No, it isn't.

That's a pretty damn good indicator of the strength of a league.

No, it isn't.

Also nobody here is going to convince me that the bottom clubs in Ligue 1 are superior to their equivalents in Spain, England, Germany and Italy.

Nobody buys players from bottom English or German sides. Clubs from every league buy players from bottom Ligue 1 sides. Then, when those players become Franck Ribery, Paul Pogba, or Eden Hazard and are pilfered from France they're offered up as proof as why the leagues they've gone to are stronger than the league they've left. But where'd they receive their footballing knowledge and skill?

Them being a "serious" CL contender (not a single CL-semifinal in 4 seasons) does not turn them into "one of the biggest clubs in the world" in my universe.

Yea, Juventus is better because they drew Dortmund and Monaco rather than Chelsea and Barca.

Your arguments are juvenile.

All I am saying, let's wait for at least a few more years for such bombastic claims. Nobody outside of deluded PSG fans take such claims seriously.

Not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

it's sad that you guys can't discuss things without getting all partisan & shit.
It is clear that Juvens is arguing about the present, not the past. And you should expect him to be biased because it's normal and so are you. Some tact never hurt anyone.