Valencia

[Kerrybai]

Is the new La lIga tv deal going to be similar to the EPl with regard to money distribution?

I would have liked to have seen Sociedad qualify but at the same time Valencia have a half built 75,000 seater stadium that needs financing to be finished. Making the CL can only help with this.

 

[DonAndres]

But if you look a the recent past when other small/mid clubs make the top 4 in Spain they always suffer in the long term. Both Betis and Villarreal have since been relegated. Osasuna suffered after Aguirre left to Atletico.

Re Valencia: I suppose it is hard to ambition when you have 300 mill of debt to pay off. They need that 4th spot or it is goodbye to Soldado, Banega etc..

Debt doesn't equate to lack of ambition. Sociedad are far from a world class team yet with ambition and determination they've been able to play amazingly this season and move up to the heights no one would've expected for them. Valencia have been underwhelming and sell their talents far too often, like a club for vultures to pick young players off of.

 

[Andrew M]

Debt doesn't equate to lack of ambition. Sociedad are far from a world class team yet with ambition and determination they've been able to play amazingly this season and move up to the heights no one would've expected for them. Valencia have been underwhelming and sell their talents far too often, like a club for vultures to pick young players off of.

Depends what you mean by ambition. If by ambition you mean not selling great players then the debt has affected Valencia.

 

[DonAndres]

Depends what you mean by ambition. If by ambition you mean not selling great players then the debt has affected Valencia.

Fighting to keep their players is part of it, but it's more of the part that they can't fully control. I'm talking about having a never-say-die football attitude to really make it to the top and fight to break the duopoly. It doesn't have to be instantaneous but over the course of a few years. Starting off by keeping solid wins over lower table teams in la liga and really preparing and fighting against the bigger clubs. Same thing with the CL where they should prepare more and treat it with more importance.

 

[JamDav1982]

Fighting to keep their players is part of it, but it's more of the part that they can't fully control. I'm talking about having a never-say-die football attitude to really make it to the top and fight to break the duopoly. It doesn't have to be instantaneous but over the course of a few years. Starting off by keeping solid wins over lower table teams in la liga and really preparing and fighting against the bigger clubs. Same thing with the CL where they should prepare more and treat it with more importance.

Valencia have done just about everything they can these last few years. If anything they have massively over achieved by the money they have got and players they have had to let go.

 

[Andrew M]

Fighting to keep their players is part of it, but it's more of the part that they can't fully control. I'm talking about having a never-say-die football attitude to really make it to the top and fight to break the duopoly. It doesn't have to be instantaneous but over the course of a few years. Starting off by keeping solid wins over lower table teams in la liga and really preparing and fighting against the bigger clubs. Same thing with the CL where they should prepare more and treat it with more importance.

I think they have been admirably competitive since the recession. The had to sell players. No way around that. But they have made great signings in the last couple of years to keep in 3rd/4th place. They were not too far off PSG in the CL this year, a team that nearly put us out. They nearly beat Bayern in the group stage at the Mestalla.

They dominated Man U in matches a couple of years ago without getting the win.

 

[Cule4life]

@DonAndres i think ur having a case of a slight Basque bias.
If Sociedad qualify for CL i see them struggling to juggle two competitions like Betis, Villareal. They dont have enough depth to cope.
On the other hand Valencia are much more suited to and experienced in CL not to mention they need it more to pay off their debt.
You want Valencia to be more competitive but dont want them to qualify for CL which may force them to sell players like Soldado etc to pay off debt :eusa_think:
You want Valencia to break the La Liga Duopoly when Barca/Real have more than 10 times their budget. That's not an easy task. You want them to fight to the death but how do you motivate players to give their all when they know Barca/Real have too much depth and money
Valencia have done pretty well considering the financial mismanagement(building a new stadium by selling players seriously?) and the sale of their best players.
I like Valverde and hope he does well and makes smart decisions.
Atletico have been lucky in having great players like Falcao, Turan etc and a good coach not to mention good debt management. I hope for them to do well and use the 60m from Falcao to strengthen the squad so that La Liga is more competitive
Unless a new TV deal is done, Spanish economic crises abates and Barca/Real give up their stranglehold over the league i dont see the duopoly going away any time soon.

 

[DonAndres]

@DonAndres i think ur having a case of a slight Basque bias.
If Sociedad qualify for CL i see them struggling to juggle two competitions like Betis, Villareal. They dont have enough depth to cope.
On the other hand Valencia are much more suited to and experienced in CL not to mention they need it more to pay off their debt.
You want Valencia to be more competitive but dont want them to qualify for CL which may force them to sell players like Soldado etc to pay off debt :eusa_think:
You want Valencia to break the La Liga Duopoly when Barca/Real have more than 10 times their budget. That's not an easy task. You want them to fight to the death but how do you motivate players to give their all when they know Barca/Real have too much depth and money
Valencia have done pretty well considering the financial mismanagement(building a new stadium by selling players seriously?) and the sale of their best players.
I like Valverde and hope he does well and makes smart decisions.
Atletico have been lucky in having great players like Falcao, Turan etc and a good coach not to mention good debt management. I hope for them to do well and use the 60m from Falcao to strengthen the squad so that La Liga is more competitive
Unless a new TV deal is done, Spanish economic crises abates and Barca/Real give up their stranglehold over the league i dont see the duopoly going away any time soon.

Haha I always have Basque bias but preferably towards Bilbao, not huge rivals. Me applauding Sociedad is being objective and happy for a small club being so successful.

There's no doubt that Valencia are far more experienced and more likely to do better in the CL than Sociedad. Actually I'd probably let go of my initial argument remembering that this Sociedad side won't grow as much anymore with Montanier leaving next season along with the possible departures of Vela and Martinez.

Valencia have done admirably for losing all those players in always qualifying for the CL but they haven't made much of it (much like Arsenal). In past years they are obviously hindered by the debt and financial situation but they haven't been able to go the extra mile and truly push the expectations people had of them to try to break the duopoly.

Atletico held Real at bay in the CDR and for a good portion of the year remained 2nd in the league. Sociedad made an unbelievable run to nearly claim a 4th place spot when no one would've tipped them to be nearly as high, giving Barca their first league loss in the process. Malaga were unbelievably close to making it to the semifinals of the CL in their very first year in the competition, until they tragically fell to Dortmund in the final minutes. Those are examples of liga teams showing ambition to compete with the best. They all have worse financial situations than Valencia yet have showed the ambition to advance. Valencia have been solid, yet unspectacular. And to break the duopoly, a team needs to expand in a very spectacular fashion at a high rate.

Valverde seems like a smart guy, so we'll see how he does in the CL next season with Valencia. Maybe they'll go farther in the tournament and get sparked to grow as a club and challenge domestically as well. For them it really depends on whether the manager stays and the club can remain stable while growing. That means fighting to keep talents, being clever in the transfer market, having tactical advantages to work better as a unit rather than focus on player quality, and of course have undying discipline and motivation to go for the impossible. It's not an easy task but the question is do they have the balls to pursue it?

Atletico is one club who really does have a chance of breaking the duopoly soon enough. In Simeone they have an innovative, young, and loyal manager who is keen to improve this team greatly. Their youth academy is excellent producing starlets such as Koke, Niguez, Oliver Torres, and Manquillo. While Falcao might be leaving, Simeone is really focused to spread that money into increasing overall squad depth and growing players. Leo Baptistao is pretty much confirmed, Yilmaz is another rumor, along with Suarez. With a higher league position and CL revenues coming in, plus the funds from the CDR victory Atletico are really decreasing their debt and becoming a bigger club. Seriously I cannot reiterate enough how much the Champions League will benefit them. In 11/12 when Atletico won the Europa league they got a measly 7 million euros. That same year when Man United crashed out in the group stages of the CL, they got 16 million. That's how big of a gap there is between the European competitions and that is the increase in profits Atletico are looking at. If they go to the quarterfinals of the CL, they'll get a good 25-30 million right there. And there is a new TV deal coming around 2014 with slightly more equitable distribution. I'm excited for this club. Ambitious and have the capabilities to really rise up in European dominance.

There are other clubs that have the motivation to break the duopoly. Athletic are producing great cantera products every year and would do much better under a great new manager (hopefully Caparros). Betis have a new project Heliopolis where by 2016, 60% of their squad will be made up of youth products and they'll be in European competition. There are many other clubs that could/might be on the rise as well. It's all about ambition to get to the top against the odds, something Valencia are currently lacking in.

 

[Andrew M]

Barca and Real need to fuck up for Valencia and Atleti to win league, like in 2004.

 

[Cule4life]

Haha I always have Basque bias but preferably towards Bilbao, not huge rivals. Me applauding Sociedad is being objective and happy for a small club being so successful.

There's no doubt that Valencia are far more experienced and more likely to do better in the CL than Sociedad. Actually I'd probably let go of my initial argument remembering that this Sociedad side won't grow as much anymore with Montanier leaving next season along with the possible departures of Vela and Martinez.

Valencia have done admirably for losing all those players in always qualifying for the CL but they haven't made much of it (much like Arsenal). In past years they are obviously hindered by the debt and financial situation but they haven't been able to go the extra mile and truly push the expectations people had of them to try to break the duopoly.

Atletico held Real at bay in the CDR and for a good portion of the year remained 2nd in the league. Sociedad made an unbelievable run to nearly claim a 4th place spot when no one would've tipped them to be nearly as high, giving Barca their first league loss in the process. Malaga were unbelievably close to making it to the semifinals of the CL in their very first year in the competition, until they tragically fell to Dortmund in the final minutes. Those are examples of liga teams showing ambition to compete with the best. They all have worse financial situations than Valencia yet have showed the ambition to advance. Valencia have been solid, yet unspectacular. And to break the duopoly, a team needs to expand in a very spectacular fashion at a high rate.

Valverde seems like a smart guy, so we'll see how he does in the CL next season with Valencia. Maybe they'll go farther in the tournament and get sparked to grow as a club and challenge domestically as well. For them it really depends on whether the manager stays and the club can remain stable while growing. That means fighting to keep talents, being clever in the transfer market, having tactical advantages to work better as a unit rather than focus on player quality, and of course have undying discipline and motivation to go for the impossible. It's not an easy task but the question is do they have the balls to pursue it?

Atletico is one club who really does have a chance of breaking the duopoly soon enough. In Simeone they have an innovative, young, and loyal manager who is keen to improve this team greatly. Their youth academy is excellent producing starlets such as Koke, Niguez, Oliver Torres, and Manquillo. While Falcao might be leaving, Simeone is really focused to spread that money into increasing overall squad depth and growing players. Leo Baptistao is pretty much confirmed, Yilmaz is another rumor, along with Suarez. With a higher league position and CL revenues coming in, plus the funds from the CDR victory Atletico are really decreasing their debt and becoming a bigger club. Seriously I cannot reiterate enough how much the Champions League will benefit them. In 11/12 when Atletico won the Europa league they got a measly 7 million euros. That same year when Man United crashed out in the group stages of the CL, they got 16 million. That's how big of a gap there is between the European competitions and that is the increase in profits Atletico are looking at. If they go to the quarterfinals of the CL, they'll get a good 25-30 million right there. And there is a new TV deal coming around 2014 with slightly more equitable distribution. I'm excited for this club. Ambitious and have the capabilities to really rise up in European dominance.

There are other clubs that have the motivation to break the duopoly. Athletic are producing great cantera products every year and would do much better under a great new manager (hopefully Caparros). Betis have a new project Heliopolis where by 2016, 60% of their squad will be made up of youth products and they'll be in European competition. There are many other clubs that could/might be on the rise as well. It's all about ambition to get to the top against the odds, something Valencia are currently lacking in.

Agree with you on many points but disagree on the following
-->Valencia are nothing like Arsenal. They have nowhere near the money nor the history Arsenal has. Valencia actually overachieve by qualifying for CL consistently while Arsenal underachieve. Valencia sell their best players due to debt. Arsenal sell their best players because they arent ambitious enough
--> Its a long time since Sociedad did this well. Whos to say they will be consistently good like Valencia and wont be one season wonders especially with Montainier leaving. Would'nt it be better if Valencia go farther in the competition to improve Spain's coefficient while Sociedad improve squad depth get a new manager with good ideas and try again next season when they are better prepared. Getting knocked out in group stages can demoralize them
-->I respect Bilbao but cant see them being a major force with their Basque only policy(Sorry but i cant see how you can squeeze out 20+ world class players from the tiny Basque region as compared to Europe. Again no disrespect. Its just my opinion). Plus the "false" basque pride creating a bad atmosphere at the club (Llorente) will make players shy away form Bilbao and entice them to join Sociedad etc.
-->Malaga did well in CL but failed to qualify this year (irrespective of UEFA ban). This shows how difficult it is to be consistent like Valencia so you have got to give them some credit

 

[BXI Fútbol]

Agree with you on many points but disagree on the following
-->Valencia are nothing like Arsenal. They have nowhere near the money nor the history Arsenal has. Valencia actually overachieve by qualifying for CL consistently while Arsenal underachieve. Valencia sell their best players due to debt. Arsenal sell their best players because they arent ambitious enough
--> Its a long time since Sociedad did this well. Whos to say they will be consistently good like Valencia and wont be one season wonders especially with Montainier leaving. Would'nt it be better if Valencia go farther in the competition to improve Spain's coefficient while Sociedad improve squad depth get a new manager with good ideas and try again next season when they are better prepared. Getting knocked out in group stages can demoralize them
-->I respect Bilbao but cant see them being a major force with their Basque only policy(Sorry but i cant see how you can squeeze out 20+ world class players from the tiny Basque region as compared to Europe. Again no disrespect. Its just my opinion). Plus the "false" basque pride creating a bad atmosphere at the club (Llorente) will make players shy away form Bilbao and entice them to join Sociedad etc.
-->Malaga did well in CL but failed to qualify this year (irrespective of UEFA ban). This shows how difficult it is to be consistent like Valencia so you have got to give them some credit

Your view on the Arsenal situation is much too simplistic; do you really think as soon as they moved to the Emirates the board all of a sudden decided "we will no longer be ambitious?". They, like Valencia, sell their best players because of debt; the nature of this debt however is what is different between the two teams. Arsenal run a long-term, sustainable business model and the huge costs that result from building a new stadium lead them to sometimes selling their best players; Valencia like so many other Spanish teams are in debt because of irresponsible, unsustainable business model and are now tentatively owned by the banks. With the shoe-string budget the Arsenal board has given Wenger to work with (again, not because the club has no money, but because the board has decided that the debt accrued with the new stadium is top priority), one could actually say that the consistent top four finishes has been overachieving, or at least not underachieving. I agree with you that Arsenal and Valencia is not an apt comparison, but it's good not to fall into superficial characiteurizations that miss what is actually at work.

I do agree with the main point of your post which is that Valencia's consistency makes them ultimately better candidates for CL football than Sociedad. With Montanier leaving, and Martinez, Griezzman, and Vela all possibly leaving, it's hard to see how, even with CL money Sociedad would build back up to the baseline they're at now, let alone strengthen the squad. Let's not forget also that this current Sociedad team has been playing together for two seasons now, and it will be difficult to rebuild that sort of team chemistry with one or more key players leaving. That and of course the difficulty of balancing league and European competition can be very destabilizing.

I'd like to see either in the CL, and I do like Sociedad so I'd be happy to see them get CL football but ultimately Valencia might have the better shot due to their history in the competition and their relative stability.

 

[DonAndres]

Agree with you on many points but disagree on the following
-->Valencia are nothing like Arsenal. They have nowhere near the money nor the history Arsenal has. Valencia actually overachieve by qualifying for CL consistently while Arsenal underachieve. Valencia sell their best players due to debt. Arsenal sell their best players because they arent ambitious enough
--> Its a long time since Sociedad did this well. Whos to say they will be consistently good like Valencia and wont be one season wonders especially with Montainier leaving. Would'nt it be better if Valencia go farther in the competition to improve Spain's coefficient while Sociedad improve squad depth get a new manager with good ideas and try again next season when they are better prepared. Getting knocked out in group stages can demoralize them
-->I respect Bilbao but cant see them being a major force with their Basque only policy(Sorry but i cant see how you can squeeze out 20+ world class players from the tiny Basque region as compared to Europe. Again no disrespect. Its just my opinion). Plus the "false" basque pride creating a bad atmosphere at the club (Llorente) will make players shy away form Bilbao and entice them to join Sociedad etc.
-->Malaga did well in CL but failed to qualify this year (irrespective of UEFA ban). This shows how difficult it is to be consistent like Valencia so you have got to give them some credit

The one thing Valencia have shown that other clubs haven't is consistency in the face of disaster. Managers leaving, key players being sold, debt issues yet they remain consistent, which is good.

Athletic is honestly getting more and more lenient with the Basque only policy (letting in guys like Ramalho, Laporte, Amorebieta shows that they are taking a much wider view than before). Plus, the key principles are there like a strong youth academy, mostly loyal players (don't let the turmoil under Bielsa fool you), etc. and once again it's all about consistency and growth. The right steps need to be taken starting with a great manager, then maybe increasing funds and sponsorship deals, and having more money to throw around in the transfer market. It'll be a long, long time before they can even try to compete for a title but under the right guidance a top 4 position isn't out of the question within the next 5 years.

I already conceded that Valencia would be better CL options than Sociedad due to their various losses and likely inability to cope with them. Same thing with Malaga. It's just that with those limited resources, the clubs fought to succeed in ways that no one would've thought them to. Valencia hasn't. Consistency is key but only if it's directed to steadily making your way up, not staying in the same place.

Valencia themselves have not recently shown the ambition to break the duopoly. Out of all the clubs in Spain they have the best resources to do so, yet don't want it enough. I mean yes it's an extremely difficult mountain to climb but they can't just look at the obstacles in front of them and give up. It's not disappointing or bad, it's just that they're going to be stuck in this rut for a long time if things don't change.

 

[JamDav1982]

The one thing Valencia have shown that other clubs haven't is consistency in the face of disaster. Managers leaving, key players being sold, debt issues yet they remain consistent, which is good.

Athletic is honestly getting more and more lenient with the Basque only policy (letting in guys like Ramalho, Laporte, Amorebieta shows that they are taking a much wider view than before). Plus, the key principles are there like a strong youth academy, mostly loyal players (don't let the turmoil under Bielsa fool you), etc. and once again it's all about consistency and growth. The right steps need to be taken starting with a great manager, then maybe increasing funds and sponsorship deals, and having more money to throw around in the transfer market. It'll be a long, long time before they can even try to compete for a title but under the right guidance a top 4 position isn't out of the question within the next 5 years.

I already conceded that Valencia would be better CL options than Sociedad due to their various losses and likely inability to cope with them. Same thing with Malaga. It's just that with those limited resources, the clubs fought to succeed in ways that no one would've thought them to. Valencia hasn't. Consistency is key but only if it's directed to steadily making your way up, not staying in the same place.

Valencia themselves have not recently shown the ambition to break the duopoly. Out of all the clubs in Spain they have the best resources to do so, yet don't want it enough. I mean yes it's an extremely difficult mountain to climb but they can't just look at the obstacles in front of them and give up. It's not disappointing or bad, it's just that they're going to be stuck in this rut for a long time if things don't change.

It is nothing to do with Valencia 'not wanting it enough'.

They have massive debt and need to service that every season or risk going out of business.

They have done fantastically well to clear around 200m of debt and maintain themselves in La Liga and the CL. Having higher league finishes these past few seasons than they did when they had Villa, Silva and Mata together.

 

[DonAndres]

It is nothing to do with Valencia 'not wanting it enough'.

They have massive debt and need to service that every season or risk going out of business.

They have done fantastically well to clear around 200m of debt and maintain themselves in La Liga and the CL. Having higher league finishes these past few seasons than they did when they had Villa, Silva and Mata together.

I agree with you there and under Valverde they might look a different team next season, who knows? However they never have shown to really make an unbelievably motivated push for trophies in any season. Never really tried to pursue what was considered out of their grasp. Staying consistent with all those obstacles is respectable in it's own way but it's a pure feat of motivation, desire, and a little luck to break the duopoly which is what their ultimate goal should be, otherwise why bother going out to play football every weekend if you know it's never going to lead to a title?

 

[BXI Fútbol]

DonAndres, I'm afraid your point about Valencia not wanting to break the duopoly enough ignores the fact that it is absolutely impossible to break the duopoly as long as the general conditions stay the same. You said in a previous post that effective 2014 there will be a new TV rights deal that is slightly better. Do you have any exact figures for that? Because right now the difference between 1 & 2 (Barca and Madrid) and 3 (Valencia) is about 100 million. A "slightly better" deal does not inspire a shred of confidence that it will be enough to cause any meaningful change and create conditions for the breaking of the duopoly.

It is not a matter of Valencia "not wanting it enough", it is simply a matter of the two biggest clubs having a financial stranglehold on the league which makes it so that even the club with the best resources available to break the duopoly is simply unable to due to massive debt and gross imbalance between their TV revenue and Barca's and Madrid's. Until a fair TV rights deal is in place no team will have even a small chance at realistically challenging for the league title. Again, I would be very interested in seeing the actual numbers for the new TV deal, I have a feeling it will be enough to shut everyone up for a bit while not being nearly enough of a difference to actually lead to any any meaningful change in the duopoly.