Virgil van Dijk

[xXKonan]

My thoughts exactly, specially with many PL fans saying he didn't do that great after coming from injury

From what Southampton fans say he was also not mentally there at all ever since his move failed in the summer and his overall attitude wasn't great.

At least with Coutinho despite him wanting to come and the move falling through this summer, he's been professional about it and he's working hard on the field despite knowing this could be his final season at Anfield.

What VVD did was the complete opposite. Southampton are struggling a lot this season and even if you're frustrated the move didn't happen in the summer you would at least expect for him to buckle down and help you know your current team and show the fans and owners that despite what happen during the summer you still at least give a shit about the team.

But that didn't happen and he looked mentally out of it.

 

[henias]

It's not just 75m euros but 75m pounds. That's really 85m in euros.

There is no valid reason to spend over 50m on a defender or goalkeeper even in today's market unless they're some sort of generational talent.

van Dijk alone isn't going to solve all of Liverpool's defensive woes. They need to revamp their entire backline and goalkeeping and even then Klopp's system isn't all that conducive to great defensive play.

Exactly. Klopp's defensive system itself is one major failure regardless of the players in it.

 

[behindbrowneyes]

And to think that we bought Umtiti for 25 ml

Every club has bargain transfers. Bayern got Lewandowski for free, Liverpool signed Coutinho for ~15M, Madrid signed Asensio for 3,5M. Not that I think Asensio will reach the heights of Lewandowski or Coutinho, but he is far and away superior to Deulofeu who costed more than triple that.

However, Liverpool paid that price because they desperately need a defender the same way we overpaid Dortmund for Dembélé because we needed a class winger.

 

[BBZ8800]

It's not just 75m euros but 75m pounds. That's really 85m in euros.

There is no valid reason to spend over 50m on a defender or goalkeeper even in today's market unless they're some sort of generational talent.

van Dijk alone isn't going to solve all of Liverpool's defensive woes. They need to revamp their entire backline and goalkeeping and even then Klopp's system isn't all that conducive to great defensive play.

Mourinho said 2 days ago that they can't compete with City because "normal" clubs are buying expensive midfielders and attackers and "cheaper" defenders.
While City is paying expensive prices for all positions, even for defenders.

My point: with all the money and inflated prices, majority of defenders will cost 70-80-100 Millions in this market.
City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, they will skyrocket all prices in upcoming years.

How will we cope with that?
I don't know.

 

[Barcaman]

Noticed him more than 2 years ago and wished we signed him. Now he is most expensive defender in history.

Barca should hire me.

 

[Messi983]

For comparision - our whole current defense costed 120M.

Semedo 30m
Roberto free
Pique 5m
Umtiti 25m
Vermaelen 20m
Mina 10m
Alba 14m
Digne 16m

I'm including Mina instead of Masche because he's leaving. And I'm aware that we can't really compare prices of Alba or Pique from 7-10 years ago with todays market. It's obvious we got a steal in Umtiti and Mina could be another one for his price only (clubs are prepared to pay more than 20M for him) even if he'll only be good enough to be our 3rd or 4th CB. We overpaid for Vermaelen, mainly because of his injuries, if not he could be at least a very good #3 CB which would be more than enough for his pricetag. Digne is a very solid backup and you can't ask more for his price though it would be even better if Lucho would give a chance to Grimaldo so he'd stay. The jury is still out on Semedo.

 

[Ousmane Dembélé]

Mourinho said 2 days ago that they can't compete with City because "normal" clubs are buying expensive midfielders and attackers and "cheaper" defenders.
While City is paying expensive prices for all positions, even for defenders.

My point: with all the money and inflated prices, majority of defenders will cost 70-80-100 Millions in this market.
City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, they will skyrocket all prices in upcoming years.

How will we cope with that?
I don't know.

Scout properly and sign CB's that fly under the radar for cheaper rates. Not every defender is going to cost 85m nor is every good defender going to cost 85m. Only the overhyped big names in the PL will command that sort of fee. Most other defenders playing outside of England in places like Brazil, France, or the Netherlands won't get as much exposure, hence won't sell for over 50m.

There are plenty of good defenders out there that we probably haven't even heard of, we just need to scout properly and we should be fine. Midfielders and attackers get most of the attention since they're more flashy players that have a greater impact in goals scored, whereas a good defender goes unnoticed to most viewers, thus gets less exposure.

If we're smart we can avoid paying such outrageous fees for defenders for the foreseeable future.

 

[serghei]

Scout properly and sign CB's that fly under the radar for cheaper rates. Not every defender is going to cost 85m nor is every good defender going to cost 85m. Only the overhyped big names in the PL will command that sort of fee. Most other defenders playing outside of England in places like Brazil, France, or the Netherlands won't get as much exposure, hence won't sell for over 50m.

There are plenty of good defenders out there that we probably haven't even heard of, we just need to scout properly and we should be fine. Midfielders and attackers get most of the attention since they're more flashy players that have a greater impact in goals scored, whereas a good defender goes unnoticed to most viewers, thus gets less exposure.

If we're smart we can avoid paying such outrageous fees for defenders for the foreseeable future.

True. Solution to inflated market is good scouting + looking after La Masia and Barca B. We can't afford to buy top rated players on each position.

Real price of van Dijk is probably around 30-35m.

 

[BBZ8800]

Scout properly and sign CB's that fly under the radar for cheaper rates. Not every defender is going to cost 85m nor is every good defender going to cost 85m. Only the overhyped big names in the PL will command that sort of fee. Most other defenders playing outside of England in places like Brazil, France, or the Netherlands won't get as much exposure, hence won't sell for over 50m.

There are plenty of good defenders out there that we probably haven't even heard of, we just need to scout properly and we should be fine. Midfielders and attackers get most of the attention since they're more flashy players that have a greater impact in goals scored, whereas a good defender goes unnoticed to most viewers, thus gets less exposure.

If we're smart we can avoid paying such outrageous fees for defenders for the foreseeable future.

Yes, we can scout for players outside of La Liga and EPL.
But then, we did it a lot of times in the past with players like Christanval, Chyngry, Caceres, Brasilian defenders.
The only 2 foreign CBs in the last 15 years who were a success here (for a lower price) were Rafael Marquez and Umtiti.

Imo, a success rate with these kind of semi unproven players is 1/3, 1/4 or 1/5.
So, you can't just buy Marlon and put your all eggs in his basket.
Or buy Mina and do the same.

A problem with these kind of youngsters, who are unproven on the highest level, on NT level and Champions league is that you need to buy 3-4 of them to get ONE player who will be okish.
If you buy 1, you are most likely screwed.
But if you buy 3, then, how will you develop them?
You can't give a playing time to all 3, because a 1st team will suffer.
And if they don't play regularly, you'll get a new Semedo, new Samper and similar.

So:
1. if you buy only 1 player like Marlon/Mina, 80% probably nothing will happen
2. if you buy 3-4 of them, how will you develop them?
3. if you loan them, well, we all know what happens lately with our loans. People say that we picked either a wrong team or a wrong league, or that a manager doesn't play our player because he needs a player who will actually stay in a team in upcoming seasons

So, I am not against your proposal.
But how to make it work in reality?

And please, don't reply: we need to pick only 1 guy, in whom scouts are 100% sure and then go all in with his development.
You can't go all in for a 20-30M guy (And now even Sanchez is around 40-50M, right, lol?) and expect to go all in with a development of that guy from a weaker league and with zero NT, CL, La Liga, Barca experience.

 

[serghei]

Yes, we can scout for players outside of La Liga and EPL.
But then, we did it a lot of times in the past with players like Christanval, Chyngry, Caceres, Brasilian defenders.
The only 2 foreign CBs in the last 15 years who were a success here (for a lower price) were Rafael Marquez and Umtiti.

Imo, a success rate with these kind of semi unproven players is 1/3, 1/4 or 1/5.
So, you can't just buy Marlon and put your all eggs in his basket.
Or buy Mina and do the same.

A problem with these kind of youngsters, who are unproven on the highest level, on NT level and Champions league is that you need to buy 3-4 of them to get ONE player who will be okish.
If you buy 1, you are most likely screwed.
But if you buy 3, then, how will you develop them?
You can't give a playing time to all 3, because a 1st team will suffer.
And if they don't play regularly, you'll get a new Semedo, new Samper and similar.

So:
1. if you buy only 1 player like Marlon/Mina, 80% probably nothing will happen
2. if you buy 3-4 of them, how will you develop them?
3. if you loan them, well, we all know what happens lately with our loans. People say that we picked either a wrong team or a wrong league, or that a manager doesn't play our player because he needs player who will actually stay in a team in upcoming seasons

So, I am not against your proposal.
But how to make it work in reality.

And please, don't reply: we need to pick only 1 guy, in whom scouts are 100% sure and then go all in with his development.
You can't go all in for a 20-30M guy (And now even Sanchez is around 40-50M, right, lol?) and expect to go all in with a development of that guy from a weaker league and with zero NT, CL, La Liga, Barca experience.

BBZ, basically you've exposed (very nicely btw) some of the reasons why having a top scouting system is important. Good scouts and good coaches have an eye for these types of things, they can estimate better which are the types of players who are likely going to succeed and which aren't, then act upon those judgment calls. Which is why we must make sure that the people who run our club are top notch in those areas. A person with great eye for players can give you better returns than the percentages you posted there.

Giving time is surely important, but it's only a subsequent stage. The first stage being getting the right profile, the right player to make the best use of that time. You seem to think the numbers stay the same no matter the types of players you sign. Which, if true, wouldn't explain the need for a top scouting system. You need to discard a lot of players based on several aspects before you even put them on the field for your team, which is what scouting is all about. Scouting is not about trial and error, it's about making sure that you land the players with the right social, cultural, and sporting perspectives to make it. Everybody can do 'trial and error'. If you have to actually sign the players to see how good their are, you're a shit scout (or technical director or director of footbal, or whatever) and you're costing your team money, available spots in the team and time.

 

[behindbrowneyes]

For comparision - our whole current defense costed 120M.

Semedo 30m
Roberto free
Pique 5m
Umtiti 25m
Vermaelen 20m
Mina 10m
Alba 14m
Digne 16m

I'm including Mina instead of Masche because he's leaving. And I'm aware that we can't really compare prices of Alba or Pique from 7-10 years ago with todays market. It's obvious we got a steal in Umtiti and Mina could be another one for his price only (clubs are prepared to pay more than 20M for him) even if he'll only be good enough to be our 3rd or 4th CB. We overpaid for Vermaelen, mainly because of his injuries, if not he could be at least a very good #3 CB which would be more than enough for his pricetag. Digne is a very solid backup and you can't ask more for his price though it would be even better if Lucho would give a chance to Grimaldo so he'd stay. The jury is still out on Semedo.

On the other hand they signed Salah, Mané, Coutinho and Firmino for a combined ~135M. Dembélé will cost us this sum.

 

[Barcaman]

For comparision - our whole current defense costed 120M.

Semedo 30m
Roberto free
Pique 5m
Umtiti 25m
Vermaelen 20m
Mina 10m
Alba 14m
Digne 16m

I'm including Mina instead of Masche because he's leaving. And I'm aware that we can't really compare prices of Alba or Pique from 7-10 years ago with todays market. It's obvious we got a steal in Umtiti and Mina could be another one for his price only (clubs are prepared to pay more than 20M for him) even if he'll only be good enough to be our 3rd or 4th CB. We overpaid for Vermaelen, mainly because of his injuries, if not he could be at least a very good #3 CB which would be more than enough for his pricetag. Digne is a very solid backup and you can't ask more for his price though it would be even better if Lucho would give a chance to Grimaldo so he'd stay. The jury is still out on Semedo.

Our starting back 4 cost 44mil.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

On the other hand they signed Salah, Mané, Coutinho and Firmino for a combined ~135M. Dembélé will cost us this sum.

Those are amazing signings for 135mil.

 

[Jombi]

Yes, we can scout for players outside of La Liga and EPL.
But then, we did it a lot of times in the past with players like Christanval, Chyngry, Caceres, Brasilian defenders.
The only 2 foreign CBs in the last 15 years who were a success here (for a lower price) were Rafael Marquez and Umtiti.

Imo, a success rate with these kind of semi unproven players is 1/3, 1/4 or 1/5.
So, you can't just buy Marlon and put your all eggs in his basket.

How can you even use a name like Marlon in this situation? The guy was just a dirt cheap Barca B signing who no one with a brain counted on being a coming superstar. Thats a far cry from signing top quality young defenders from Bundesliga, France, Italy or Spain. You were against the signings of both Umtiti and Neymar. Who would you have made us chase instead? John Terry? And just because our ability to find value in the market has been truly dreadful, doesnt mean we cant improve.

 

[Neeraj]

The fact that Bayern Munich - a club that has consistently been part of the European elite - has 41 million euros as the maximum they've ever spent on a signing should tell us a lot about how we can and should go about our business in this mad market.