Would you like to see Ozil come to Barca?

[barcelonista]

This might not be a very popular view, but IMO other midfielders from the German golden generation like Muller, Kroos and Reus are better than him, and Goetze will be shortly as well (if he isn't already).

Not to mention that for all the Ozil hype since he joined Madrid, Di Maria has been a lot better than him despite flying under the radar.

You're getting carried away far too easily by players who show a bit of promise since last August. None of those you mentioned comes even close to Özil potential wise, bar Götze. If Müller was better than Özil, Löw would play Müller as the main playmaker in the middle in his favoured position. And if Reus was better than Özil as well, Löw would play:

-------------x-----------------
x----------Müller----------Reus

But instead he plays Müller out of position, Özil in his favoured position and Reus not even on the bench. Like this:

------------x----------------
x----------Özil----------Müller

Kroos, for long time, was a major worry for Bayern and looked like he wouldn't make it to the top. It's only this season that he started to show what people were expecting from him for years.


Some major underrating of Özil going on in this thread. At the age of only 22, in his first season at a club like Real Madrid, he managed 15 goals and 37 (!) assists for club and country. But yeah, REUS is better than him.

Di Maria hasn't been better than Özil either. Di Maria is not even a playmaker. He's a winger who constantly dribbles into dead ends and with poor decision making. Özil currently has a dip in form and Di Maria is taking his chance. That's it and no more.

Their last CL victory was in 2001.

Their last Uefa Cup victory was in 1997.

What has this got to do with what he said? He said Germany has a golden generation NOW. You come up with Bayern's last CL win.

 

[dalitis8]

What has this got to do with what he said? He said Germany has a golden generation NOW. You come up with Bayern's last CL win.

I was replying to his statement that the Bundesliga has long been his favorite league. Which is somewhat of an offbeat taste considering the fact that they have almost nothing to show for the past decade.

 

[el tren]

You're getting carried away far too easily by players who show a bit of promise since last August. None of those you mentioned comes even close to Özil potential wise, bar Götze. If Müller was better than Özil, Löw would play Müller as the main playmaker in the middle in his favoured position. And if Reus was better than Özil as well, Löw would play:

-------------x-----------------
x----------Müller----------Reus

But instead he plays Müller out of position, Özil in his favoured position and Reus not even on the bench. Like this:

------------x----------------
x----------Özil----------Müller

Well, potential-wise i rate Götze over Özil. However, Özil is further than Götze currently is. 4 yrs of BL football and esp. shaped by Mourinho for 1.5 yrs makes a huge difference there and Özil is rightfully playing the key attacking position for our NT. Reus is also very promising, but im not sure if he has Özils potential. He is a bit different player too, more direct and goal orientated.

But you cant however get Müller into the discussion as you are comparing a playmaker with an off-the-ball striker here. Also Müller isnt played out of position in the NT. The wing is his true position there, b/c (like i said) he is an off-the-ball player and the german NT is building up through the center via Özil. BAyern in the van Gaal era was however building up via the wings, so the off-the-ball position was the center. At BAyern with Kroos as AM, the right wing is again the off-ball pos - letting Müller shine there again and making it so hard for Robben to get into his usual game there atm.

Kroos, for long time, was a major worry for Bayern and looked like he wouldn't make it to the top. It's only this season that he started to show what people were expecting from him for years.

Kroos was brilliant in his loan season in Leverkusen (10 goals, 13 assists). It was just that van Gaal couldnt fit him into the team afterwards, also b/c he badly stuck to the 4 man attack with Müller as deep 2nd ST.

 

[barcelonista]

I was replying to his statement that the Bundesliga has long been his favorite league. Which is somewhat of an offbeat taste considering the fact that they have almost nothing to show for the past decade.

You can like football teams, players, the brand of football being played, how the clubs are run or the league in general even if they don't win anything? I don't get it.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

You're getting carried away far too easily by players who show a bit of promise since last August. None of those you mentioned comes even close to Özil potential wise, bar Götze. If Müller was better than Özil, Löw would play Müller as the main playmaker in the middle in his favoured position. And if Reus was better than Özil as well, Löw would play:

-------------x-----------------
x----------Müller----------Reus

But instead he plays Müller out of position, Özil in his favoured position and Reus not even on the bench. Like this:

------------x----------------
x----------Özil----------Müller

Kroos, for long time, was a major worry for Bayern and looked like he wouldn't make it to the top. It's only this season that he started to show what people were expecting from him for years.


Some major underrating of Özil going on in this thread. At the age of only 22, in his first season at a club like Real Madrid, he managed 15 goals and 37 (!) assists for club and country. But yeah, REUS is better than him.

Di Maria hasn't been better than Özil either. Di Maria is not even a playmaker. He's a winger who constantly dribbles into dead ends and with poor decision making. Özil currently has a dip in form and Di Maria is taking his chance. That's it and no more.




What has this got to do with what he said? He said Germany has a golden generation NOW. You come up with Bayern's last CL win.

Muller's best position is not a playmaker in the middle... he was Germany's best player in the World Cup 2010 playing wide, which is where he's at his best.
Kroos has been excellent for a long time.

And yeah, if his time with Madrid is your basis to compare Ozil and Reus, then Reus is surely better because he has been a much better player during that period, especially in the 2011 calendar year. I'm fully convinced that Ozil has become overrated since moving to Madrid (because he is in Madrid his ability has been inflated) and that Germany will suffer in the Euro if they sacrifice players just to accommodate Ozil.

Low will play a 4-1-4-1, it seems, the midfield should be imo:

---------------Schweinsteiger---------------

----Reus----------Kroos-------Ozil-----------Muller

I'd say Goetze for Ozil, but Goetze is still 19, he could use some years to mature before being handed such responsibility. Don't get me wrong, Ozil is talented, but based on performances, the likes of Muller, Kroos and Reus have all been better than him over the past year. I might be wrong, but I genuinely feel that Ozil gets very overrated just because he's at Madrid, I've seen nothing to suggest that he's the best among the new batch of German midfielders.

Well, potential-wise i rate Götze over Özil. However, Özil is further than Götze currently is. 4 yrs of BL football and esp. shaped by Mourinho for 1.5 yrs makes a huge difference there and Özil is rightfully playing the key attacking position for our NT. Reus is also very promising, but im not sure if he has Özils potential. He is a bit different player too, more direct and goal orientated.

But you cant however get Müller into the discussion as you are comparing a playmaker with an off-the-ball striker here. Also Müller isnt played out of position in the NT. The wing is his true position there, b/c (like i said) he is an off-the-ball player and the german NT is building up through the center via Özil. BAyern in the van Gaal era was however building up via the wings, so the off-the-ball position was the center. At BAyern with Kroos as AM, the right wing is again the off-ball pos - letting Müller shine there again and making it so hard for Robben to get into his usual game there atm.

I have some doubts over whether Ozil should be playing the playmaker role, but I guess time will prove me right or wrong. Under the current circumstances, I'd definitely be inclined to give that role to Kroos. Not only has be been better, he's also obviously got a better understanding with Gomez up front and Muller.

As for Reus, I'd say he's at his best as a wing player, although he's very versatile. I'm sure you'll agree that he's been almost a one man team for the better part of 2011. If he happens to leave, his club will be relegation fodder again imo, instead of top 5 contenders, Reus has been immense and would definitely have got more recognition were he playing for a more notorious club.

 

[10Rivaldo]

You can like football teams, players, the brand of football being played, how the clubs are run or the league in general even if they don't win anything? I don't get it.

He can't, he's Dalitis.

 

[el tren]

Muller's best position is not a playmaker in the middle... he was Germany's best player in the World Cup 2010 playing wide, which is where he's at his best.
Kroos has been excellent for a long time.

Its a bit different imo, like i briefly explained above already. You are right that he isnt a playmaker, but it doesnt have to do with wing or center. He doesnt like the ball played into his feet in a crowded area, but instead into open space to run into - its just where he can use his strengths best. It doesnt matter where that happens, either indeed on the wing (like in the NT and at Bayern with AM/Kroos) or in the center (van Gaals formation with forced wingplay). He should just be positioned in the opposite position of where the buildup usually happens imo.

And yeah, if his time with Madrid is your basis to compare Ozil and Reus, then Reus is surely better because he has been a much better player during that period, especially in the 2011 calendar year. I'm fully convinced that Ozil has become overrated since moving to Madrid (because he is in Madrid his ability has been inflated) and that Germany will suffer in the Euro if they sacrifice players just to accommodate Ozil.

Low will play a 4-1-4-1, it seems, the midfield should be imo:

---------------Schweinsteiger---------------

----Reus----------Kroos-------Ozil-----------Muller

I'd say Goetze for Ozil, but Goetze is still 19, he could use some years to mature before being handed such responsibility. Don't get me wrong, Ozil is talented, but based on performances, the likes of Muller, Kroos and Reus have all been better than him over the past year. I might be wrong, but I genuinely feel that Ozil gets very overrated just because he's at Madrid, I've seen nothing to suggest that he's the best among the new batch of German midfielders.

I have some doubts over whether Ozil should be playing the playmaker role, but I guess time will prove me right or wrong. Under the current circumstances, I'd definitely be inclined to give that role to Kroos. Not only has be been better, he's also obviously got a better understanding with Gomez up front and Muller.

That formation is quite fierce tbh, and from what i saw in the past 2 yrs most probably not what Löw is considering, although on paper the names look spectacular.

Löws current tactic however, that the team got used to the most and thus strives in, is with a central AM playmaker, 2 goal oriented off-the ball wingers and mostly a false 9. Also having a defensive MF (even tho its not a true holding MF but mostly a box-to-box in Khedira) at Schweinsteigers side offers Bastian to freely float around the pitch if he likes to. All this however forces Löw to leave several high-potentials out, which on the other hand is one of the biggest assets of our current NT - we have awesome replacement for any MF or attacking position:

--------------------Klose (Gomez)
Podolski (Schürrle)----Özil (Götze)-----Müller (Reus)
-----Schweinst (Kroos)-----Khedira (S/L Bender)

See the B team and notice that they are hardly worse than the A formation - and id still rate them over the dutch team. The players know the tactics in and out, and it is working nicely for us now - with the AM distributing, sometimes accompanied by Schweinsteiger moving up, having the ST participating in the buildup with wall passes and luring defenders out to bring the wingers into good opportunities (while a more 'classic' buildup by playing according to the formation is still possible too ofc) - but it might idd be time to take the next step, perhaps similar to Barca: incorporate more and more ball-orientated players into the team for more control over the game. Löw might be thinking about that already and we might see it during the next half a year prior to the EC. Its seems like a fairly obv idea with this, still unused talent available esp. in Götze, but also in Kroos and Reus anyway. Then the left wing could get occupied by one of these players (mostly Götze), which would then reduce tactical strictness, i.e. the 3 creative players would be very fluent. Besides that it also might be a tactical option to use Kroos aside Schweini in MF, although i guess it would be mostly a lategame change. But that could perhaps end in the formation you suggested, but i doubt we will ever see that as starting lineup.

Regarding Özil: for the NT he was absolutely brilliant lately and for me there is no doubt he is Löws first choice. He is the most familiar with both his NT teammates and Löws tactics out of the three in question (counting Götze and Reus in). 5 goals and 4 assists in the last 5 NT matches is quite something and definitely not a reason for Löw to keep him out. Esp. after he made such fun of the dutch defensive in our last match.

As for Reus, I'd say he's at his best as a wing player, although he's very versatile. I'm sure you'll agree that he's been almost a one man team for the better part of 2011. If he happens to leave, his club will be relegation fodder again imo, instead of top 5 contenders, Reus has been immense and would definitely have got more recognition were he playing for a more notorious club.

Really dont underestimate Favres work at Gladbach. He is repeating what he did with Hertha BSC, even scratching for the league title for quite a while, finally finishing 4th, 6 pts behind Wolfsburg and only 1 pt behind a CL qualifier place. Key was/is an impressive defensive tactic, that the team can put into practice with huge dicipline. But then oyu ofc need someone like Reus who can create and score goals on a top level. He however is also dependant on his team - and being the key player there, he is the one the team plays for and thus shines the most ofc. ALso note that he really exploded when he took over de Camargos spot in the attack (although he actually took Hankes spot as 2nd ST when Hanke moved up).

 

[dalitis8]

You can like football teams, players, the brand of football being played, how the clubs are run or the league in general even if they don't win anything? I don't get it.

That is why I said it's an "off-beat" choice to make.

And at the same time, it is also true that some people tend to overrate teams, players, brands of football and leagues in general, in face of contrarian evidence.

 

[dalitis8]

He can't, he's Dalitis.

I can't pretend that "B" is "A".

That is most certainly true.

 

[10Rivaldo]

Erm no that's not what I said.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

Its a bit different imo, like i briefly explained above already. You are right that he isnt a playmaker, but it doesnt have to do with wing or center. He doesnt like the ball played into his feet in a crowded area, but instead into open space to run into - its just where he can use his strengths best. It doesnt matter where that happens, either indeed on the wing (like in the NT and at Bayern with AM/Kroos) or in the center (van Gaals formation with forced wingplay). He should just be positioned in the opposite position of where the buildup usually happens imo.

Yes, this is what I meant. He doesn't have to necessarily play out wide, but he's not a playmaker, or at least not at his best in that function.

That formation is quite fierce tbh, and from what i saw in the past 2 yrs most probably not what Löw is considering, although on paper the names look spectacular.

Löws current tactic however, that the team got used to the most and thus strives in, is with a central AM playmaker, 2 goal oriented off-the ball wingers and mostly a false 9. Also having a defensive MF (even tho its not a true holding MF but mostly a box-to-box in Khedira) at Schweinsteigers side offers Bastian to freely float around the pitch if he likes to. All this however forces Löw to leave several high-potentials out, which on the other hand is one of the biggest assets of our current NT - we have awesome replacement for any MF or attacking position:

--------------------Klose (Gomez)
Podolski (Schürrle)----Özil (Götze)-----Müller (Reus)
-----Schweinst (Kroos)-----Khedira (S/L Bender)

See the B team and notice that they are hardly worse than the A formation - and id still rate them over the dutch team. The players know the tactics in and out, and it is working nicely for us now - with the AM distributing, sometimes accompanied by Schweinsteiger moving up, having the ST participating in the buildup with wall passes and luring defenders out to bring the wingers into good opportunities (while a more 'classic' buildup by playing according to the formation is still possible too ofc) - but it might idd be time to take the next step, perhaps similar to Barca: incorporate more and more ball-orientated players into the team for more control over the game. Löw might be thinking about that already and we might see it during the next half a year prior to the EC. Its seems like a fairly obv idea with this, still unused talent available esp. in Götze, but also in Kroos and Reus anyway. Then the left wing could get occupied by one of these players (mostly Götze), which would then reduce tactical strictness, i.e. the 3 creative players would be very fluent. Besides that it also might be a tactical option to use Kroos aside Schweini in MF, although i guess it would be mostly a lategame change. But that could perhaps end in the formation you suggested, but i doubt we will ever see that as starting lineup.

Regarding Özil: for the NT he was absolutely brilliant lately and for me there is no doubt he is Löws first choice. He is the most familiar with both his NT teammates and Löws tactics out of the three in question (counting Götze and Reus in). 5 goals and 4 assists in the last 5 NT matches is quite something and definitely not a reason for Löw to keep him out. Esp. after he made such fun of the dutch defensive in our last match.

Wait, Klose ahead of Gomez. That'd be a big decision. I mean, Klose is an NT legend, but it's hard to look past Super Mario's relentless form over the past few years. Would Lowe really prefer Klose?

And I believe Lowe has been experimenting with this 4-1-4-1 formation in some recent friendlies, hence why I was led to believe it'd become the preferred formation at least in the easier group games. But maybe he'll stick with the safer, more conservative 4-2-3-1 in the Euros.

And I agree that depth is Germany's greatest strength. That "B" team you named looks to me just as strong as the "A" team honestly. I can only see Spain with better strength in depth, and the Spanish players are generally older than the German. It's not easy for Lowe to select a starting XI, not at all.

Regarding Ozil: I accept that, based on his NY form, there's no reason to drop him. But I somehow feel that the decision to make him the fulcrum of the team might come back to haunt Germany. He is talented, of course, but has suspect stamina and doesn't seem like the kind of player who rises to the big occasion. He has been found wanting in all the big games he played with Maadrid and Germany, and even with Werder Bremen (although he was too young back then and probably shouldn't be judged on it).

Really dont underestimate Favres work at Gladbach. He is repeating what he did with Hertha BSC, even scratching for the league title for quite a while, finally finishing 4th, 6 pts behind Wolfsburg and only 1 pt behind a CL qualifier place. Key was/is an impressive defensive tactic, that the team can put into practice with huge dicipline. But then oyu ofc need someone like Reus who can create and score goals on a top level. He however is also dependant on his team - and being the key player there, he is the one the team plays for and thus shines the most ofc. ALso note that he really exploded when he took over de Camargos spot in the attack (although he actually took Hankes spot as 2nd ST when Hanke moved up).

Yeah, I know Favre is a quality coach and turned the team's fortunes around. But I can't really imagine Gladbach avoiding what seemed like certain relegation if Reus wasn't with them. I wouldn't say it was just because of Reus, but he's a big reason why they stayed up and are now in the top 5. No doubt that Favre has improved their defensive discipline and found a way to make the most of the players at his disposa, but I can't really seem them as a contender for the top spots without Reus.

 

[Bilal Khan]

as long as he keeps getting bitch-slapped by Villa, i wouldnt mind him at camp nou.

 

[Deco 20]

Nah, the Bundesliga has long been my favorite league, it's nothing that has been developed recently.

And German are indeed going through a golden generation at the moment, the amount of young German talent is incredible, they should a top candidate for every major competition for many years to come.

Germany has always had golden generations. They're always successful.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

Germany has always had golden generations. They're always successful.

Not really. Because of how disciplined and advanced tactically German football and especially German footballers are, they can always get far in competitions even when the talent isn't abundant. If I'm not mistake, they only failed to reach the QF of the World Cup once. Basically, if everyone else sucks, Germany will win by default.

But I'd say this is by far the most talented German team in a long time, surely much more talented than the side who reached the WC 2002 final and the 2006 semis. The amount of young German talent coming through is unbelievable, only they can compete with this current Spain.

 

[dalitis8]

Germany has always had golden generations. They're always successful.

Well, not exactly always: